Wraith Defenders Club

[ciannwn]

It's like celebrating a birthday you know fireworks, the Eiffel Tower and night on the town with Shawn.

Shawn and Paris just go together, somehow.

It would be nice to learn that they have to 'prove' themselves in order to get a tattoo...maybe that's something we'll learn in this episode...*fingers crossed*

Tattoos will only mean something if TPTB worked out full details of Wraith society and culture while SGA was still in the planning stage. I suspect they didn't, though, and tattoos were first added just to make some Wraith look a bit different seeing as most of them were played by James Lafazanos in seasons 1 and 2. If they wanted to give tattoos some significance now they'd have to account for the following -

1: Some females have tattoos while others don't. The caretaker (Rising) must have had high rank and we know the 'Submerged' Queen headed a great alliance but neither of them had markings. The 'Allies' Queen had very elaborate markings in 'Allies' but didn't have them in 'No Man's Land' where she'd changed her clothes.

2: 'The Defiant One' castaway - he was very old because he commanded a supply ship during the war but he didn't have a tattoo. He was very strong, tough, resourceful and aggressive so it's hard to believe that he was at the bottom of the pecking order.

3: Shawn doesn't have a tattoo. He's got some rank, though, because he seems to have a cruiser under his command (it turns up at the end of 'Condemned'). As he mentions having promised to provide for other Wraith it suggests he's some kind of supply officer in charge of cullings for his hive.

4: How do we tell the age of a Wraith, anyway? If our castaway had been cleaned up and given some new clothes would he have looked much older than Steve? Was Bob older than Steve? The 'Allies' scientist appears to know a lot more science and technology than he leads the expedition to believe. His line - "It has been so long since we have fought a real battle" can give the impression that he knew what real battles were like during the war but he looked the same age as Steve and went in for the well groomed look too. (Or did the Queen make him look well groomed because they were trying to create a good impression with the expedition?) How old is Shawn?

[naamiaiset]

4: How do we tell the age of a Wraith, anyway?

do wraith even measure age? wraith don't die from natural causes as long as they're nourished, so they might not even bother. they may know who has "been around a while" and is established versus those who are newcomers/moving up in the ranks, but I don't know if actual age means anything to them.

[ciannwn]

do wraith even measure age? wraith don't die from natural causes as long as they're nourished, so they might not even bother. they may know who has "been around a while" and is established versus those who are newcomers/moving up in the ranks, but I don't know if actual age means anything to them.

I really meant it as how do posters in this topic tell the age of a Wraith? Todd looks older than Steve so we've all decided that he is. For all we know, however, Steve could be as old as Todd and that's why he turned his nose up at substandard food. Maybe he was used to the best.

Back to tattoos. Maybe we ought to have a project - going through all the episodes and listing which Wraith (both male and female) have them and what their function appears to be. Who was the first Wraith we ever saw with a tattoo and which episode did he/she appear in?

[naamiaiset]

I really meant it as how do posters in this topic tell the age of a Wraith? Todd looks older than Steve so we've all decided that he is. For all we know, however, Steve could be as old as Todd and that's why he turned his nose up at substandard food. Maybe he was used to the best.

well someone said the shiny/straight haired wraith are the young ones and the "matted" hair (such as todd or the dreadlock look) wraith are the older ones.

Back to tattoos. Maybe we ought to have a project - going through all the episodes and listing which Wraith (both male and female) have them and what their function appears to be. Who was the first Wraith we ever saw with a tattoo and which episode did he/she appear in?

should I go back and just add that to the wraith name/picture list? so it's easier to keep track of.

[ciannwn]

well someone said the shiny/straight haired wraith are the young ones and the "matted" hair (such as todd or the dreadlock look) wraith are the older ones.

Was this just speculation or something which had been found in an interview with a scriptwriter or one of TPTB?

should I go back and just add that to the wraith name/picture list? so it's easier to keep track of.

Maybe it will be easier if we have a new topic devoted to the project. Perhaps it could go in the General forum and be called 'The Wraith Tattoo Project'. Things can get lost very easily in this one because there are so many posts and different subject that get discussed.

[naamiaiset]

Was this just speculation or something which had been found in an interview with a scriptwriter or one of TPTB?

just speculation. I think it was in this thread.

Maybe it will be easier if we have a new topic devoted to the project. Perhaps it could go in the General forum and be called 'The Wraith Tattoo Project'. Things can get lost very easily in this one because there are so many posts and different subject that get discussed.

might work better. I'm trying to add what tattoo/function/status each wraith had to the name list and some of their functions aren't easy to figure out.

[ciannwn]

might work better. I'm trying to add what tattoo/function/status each wraith had to the name list and some of their functions aren't easy to figure out.

OK - I'll go and start the topic. We can also add hairstyle to it as well. I'll call it the 'Wraith Tattoo and Hair Project'.

PS: I've started the topic now.

[dasNdanger]

so what does this mean for any future alliances with humans and in particular Todd?

Ah - forgot to address that. It is hard to say. In a way, I think Todd has an admiration for how humans treat one another, but at the same time he probably sees it as a weakness that he can exploit. Todd's like a Wraith anthropologist, studying human culture and social structure as probably no other Wraith has really had a chance to, and it seems to intrigue him (especially the 'but you always come around' bit...lol...how he must love manipulating them like pawns on a chessboard!).

I think Todd's prison experience has changed him so much that it's hard to say where his head is at regarding humans. He may actually prefer the Lanteans company in some ways - they may be the first 'friends' he's ever had (whereas Wraith are his 'brothers' - a forced bond, 'friendship' is something more selective and harder to establish - it might be a very unique feeling for him).

BEFORE his capture, I'd say he was a very tricksty fellow with little regard for human beings outside of being his food source. He probably never looked one in the eye in an attempt to understand them - but instead only to watch and enjoy their suffering at his hand. Now...things are different...and I think only time will tell exactly HOW different...depending on which way the writers decide to take him.

All those poor wraith must have knots of tension in their backs and so forth, any volunteers to massage them out?

Remember how Todd kinda stretched after being unchained in Miller's Crossing? Man, I would have given anything to rub his shoulders...

I really do hope Todd is given some power in season 5, hell, even Michael has followers and ships and he's not even a proper wraith anymore. I don't want Todd behind bars anymore, it makes him seem weak and he isn't.

I actually think Todd is exploiting the whole 'weak' thing - using it to his advantage. If he were to lash out like Steve, if he were to show any strength at all, they would either kill him, or at the very least, refuse to trust him. He has to make it appear that he needs them (no matter how much it pains him), and that he is easily kept restrained. Imagine how hard it must have been for him between The Seer and Miller's Crossing to NOT fight back. Here he is, working in a room with Rodney - guarded, yes - but if he started to feed, he would have healed from the gun fire because we saw that already in Common Ground. But he held back, and used his weakness to his advantage to coerce a meal out of his captors. I think it was humiliating for him, but at the same time a necessary evil to win their trust.

Heck - they just gave him a toy to play with (the tablet)...when you start buying toys for your pet, well...sure sign your gonna keep 'em. Now...if we can just keep Todd from biting the hand that feeds him...AND from peeing on the carpet...he should be fine.

To Steve, I surmised, to be caught by humans, his food source, would mean a disgrace and will be dishonoured in his hive... Steve also had an air of self importance that's how Wraith think...How he was treated when he was a young maturing Wraith I don't know but, I don't think he matured on a hive like the one on “Stateda” The Wraith King was quite harsh. If Steve did mature in that kind of environment he would he turned out more like Bob or Gregg from The Defiant One...Steve was probably considered hansom with in the hive. it is much like we view certain celebrities. Maybe he was favored by the Queen.

Ah, very good point! And he certainly wasn't like either of those. In comments about Greg, the director (Peter D.) said that he envisioned Greg as being very ancient, the way the Wraith used to be - more feral and primative and unpolished. James L. said that he saw Bob as a Wraith who had been around for a while and saw and experienced more than most. Those guys were rough fellows. Perhaps the Wraith in Sateda was 'old school', like them...might account for both his look and his viciousness. Anyone aboard his hive certainly must have gone through brutal training - both to toughen them up to his standards, and for his own amusement. I don't see Steve being raised on such a hive. Still...I think the guy had been slapped down a lot, just because I suspect that's how it is for all Wraith, even the spoiled ones.

Steve was still young, unblemished and, as you say, probably considered handsome by the hive. He may have been favored by the Queen, might account for his conceit and spoiled disposition. I do think they must put on a very superior air in order to survive within the hive, and because it's intimidating to the humans they hunt.

Think of Todd - he didn't have that air about him. Each time he was brought into feed, or taken away - even after he got stronger - he hung his head - he was at the complete mercy of his captors and hated it - probably hated himself for it. He showed a little fire before he fed, but things were so out of his control that no pride was left in him at all. We don't really see it until after the escape, when he straightens up and looks at Sheppard (both before and after being handed the keys) - a little Wraith confidence coming back to him. His swagger in Kindred was so great to see because it was so Wraithy. No doubt about it now - Todd's got his grove back...

Steve had no choice but except the inferior meal that was offered to him...

Probably true. He'd have no idea if such an offer would be made again. It was just so great to see his displeasure over the offered meal - like getting served up liver when you really wanted filet mignon.

I also wonder, if Steve did escape would he be ostracized by his hive. I think he would have to 'work' and earn 'respect' again to achieve his status. It seem to me when Wraith are in the company of humans for a very long time, other Wraiths mistrust them. I'm sure this was the case with Todd.

Yeah - I think there would be two levels of mistrust, the first, of course, being whether or not their loyalty has been compromised. But secondly, being captured was a sign of weakness (perhaps a lack of bravery for not committing suicide instead). They would certainly have to prove themselves before gaining any sort of status again. I think that's why Todd is taking so many chances with the humans, in the current conditions, he sees it as the only way to prove himself of value to the Wraith, and worthy of status and power.

I know I didn't speculate on Ellia but, she was very young and had the good fortune of being raised by a human so, she in spite of her Wraith urgings she still knew of compassion.

I think that Ellia's experience basically shows us that Wraith are shaped, not just by genetics, but by enviroment. That would suggest that life within the hive is very demanding and brutal (on a variety of levels), since Wraith are very demanding and brutal. Ellia, however, wasn't - so enviroment definitely plays a role in how their personalities develop.

I've been thinking that'd it'd be nice to have an episode featuring the Wraith with dag-gum little of the Atlantis folk. Maybe a pre-story leading up to a truly, big nasty for the Atlantis folks?

That is why we need more Wraith centric storylines on SGA. I would like to see how they live, interact with one another. How they train to fight. Is their training like the Klingons from ST. Do they have competition fights much like Telc and Ronan. Do they fight to the death. Maybe the best Wraith get to feed on the best humans other that the queen. One post suggest there is a an appenticeship method. Maybe it is like a Master and a Padawan in Star Wars.

Like I said in my post above there is so much to speculate on Wraith hive life.

I agree with both of you - it would be great to see a Wraith-centric episode or two - more than what we got in SoW, although that gave us a LITTLE insight. I'd love to see what sort of training they go through, and wouldn't be surprised if it involved fights to the death...or near death, at least.

Sadly enough, I knew what 'dag-gum' meant, and have used it on many occasions.. (My redneck is showing...)

For some reason I thought of Marilyn Manson. MM looks kinda of Wraithy, he has the colored hair, probably can wear the queen's attire got that Wraith attitude or wraithitude. Maybe he can belt out a tune or two for the hive.

NOT crazy!! In a recent TV Guide interview show about SGA, Flanigan said, "They look like Marilyn Manson. I think Marilyn Manson is pretty cool. We should have...if Marilyn Manson is out there, we need you on the show."

So - you, and SHEPPARD - think alike...

How does the Wraith telepathy fit into all that? Do they use it for normal works/education or is it used more like we would use a telephone?

I think in the hive, Wraith pretty much use telepathy - though they would also have to learn to speak, both their own language, and English (the universal language...lol). And French. Shawn knows French. Maybe we should change his name to Pierre.

Tattoos will only mean something if TPTB worked out full details of Wraith society and culture while SGA was still in the planning stage. I suspect they didn't, though, and tattoos were first added just to make some Wraith look a bit different seeing as most of them were played by James Lafazanos in seasons 1 and 2. If they wanted to give tattoos some significance now they'd have to account for the following -

I agree with how the tattoos started out - but you forgot one very important thing...we ONLY know of the tattoos that WE can see... *imagines Steve with a "Mom" tattoo on his upper arm...surrounded by a heart of roses... *

Hard to say how old these guys are - mainly because Carson told us that in The Rising. They don't age. So, we go by other things - I'm thinking the guys with the ratty hair (Bob, Todd, Greg, etc) are much older than the smooth-haired ones. But we don't know how long it takes them to grow up (months, years?)...so...the Allies' scientist might have been alive as far back as the War with the Ancients, whereas the Bobs and Todds and Gregs PRE-dated the war with the Ancients. They may have been the ruling powers at the time, while ones like the Allies' could have been born, and grown up, during the war. He'd be familiar with the war, with the tactics used and battles fought, but not yet in any position of power yet.

Now - how do we get the writers to read this crap so they know what WE NEED to see as Wraith fans - the kind of revelations we'd like to see?

Although...in some ways knowing this stuff is a lot less satisfying than speculating on it.


das

[dasNdanger]

About the hair - it was speculation - but some based on 'fact' - Greg was well over 10,000 years old, James L. said that Bob had been around a long while, and seen more than most Wraith, and Todd, with his knowledge of the cloning facility, seems to date back to the War with the Ancients as well - all 'old' Wraith, with matted hair.

Either James or Peter D....or someone else (in one of the Season Companion books) said that Steve was from the younger, more refined generation, compared to Greg who was feral and unpolished. It may have been James who said it - I will try to find his comments and post them here...though it will take a lot of typing...and my fingers are worn out from my post above...


das

[ciannwn]

Imagine how hard it must have been for him between The Seer and Miller's Crossing to NOT fight back. Here he is, working in a room with Rodney - guarded, yes - but if he started to feed, he would have healed from the gun fire because we saw that already in Common Ground. But he held back, and used his weakness to his advantage to coerce a meal out of his captors. I think it was humiliating for him, but at the same time a necessary evil to win their trust.

Wraith can be killed from gunfire even if they've just fed - it takes more bullets but they still die. Feeding on Atlantis and on Earth in 'Miller's Crossing' wouldn't have been a good idea because both places have a lot of armed marines. It would have been very unlikely that Todd could have got to the
Stargates and escaped because neither of them have standard DHDs.

I agree with how the tattoos started out - but you forgot one very important thing...we ONLY know of the tattoos that WE can see... *imagines Steve with a "Mom" tattoo on his upper arm...surrounded by a heart of roses... *

Will we ever learn of tattoos which we can't see? It would be interesting to know where they are.

So, we go by other things - I'm thinking the guys with the ratty hair (Bob, Todd, Greg, etc) are much older than the smooth-haired ones. But we don't know how long it takes them to grow up (months, years?)...so...the Allies' scientist might have been alive as far back as the War with the Ancients, whereas the Bobs and Todds and Gregs PRE-dated the war with the Ancients.

None of them would end up with dreadlocks if they combed and brushed their hair a lot. It has to be a choice so it depends on how long it takes Wraith hair to end up like that. Humans manage it within a human lifetime (Ronon, for example) so, if hair is hair, it shouldn't take a Wraith all that long in comparison to their natural longevity.

[ciannwn]

About the hair - it was speculation - but some based on 'fact' - Greg was well over 10,000 years old, James L. said that Bob had been around a long while, and seen more than most Wraith, and Todd, with his knowledge of the cloning facility, seems to date back to the War with the Ancients as well - all 'old' Wraith, with matted hair.

The 'Wraith Tatoo And Hair Project' topic in General is meant to be a fun analysis of which Wraith has what. The Dart pilot in 'Duet' and the faced male stranded with Ellia have the matted hair too.

Either James or Peter D....or someone else (in one of the Season Companion books) said that Steve was from the younger, more refined generation, compared to Greg who was feral and unpolished. It may have been James who said it - I will try to find his comments and post them here...though it will take a lot of typing...and my fingers are worn out from my post above...

I haven't seen this so would love to read it. I wish such details would be included in the series now so they become canon rather than just comments which not all SGA viewers will have come across.

[Icarium]

Ok, I'm going from serious to silly but, I was thinking if Andee Frizzell wasn't avaiable to play the Hive Queen who would you think can play a Wraith Queen?

For some reason I thought of Marilyn Manson. MM looks kinda of Wraithy, he has the colored hair, probably can wear the queen's attire got that Wraith attitude or wraithitude. Maybe he can belt out a tune or two for the hive.

Oh never mind I should go to bed because it is 2 in the morn. Just a crazy thought.

Take care Wraithies:

LS

Maybe TPTB want to make some kind of tradition. Todd's marking is a homage to a singer called Ace, and the Queen's appearance to Marilyn Manson. Next Wraith will resemble Freddie Mercury

Icarium

[ciannwn]

Next Wraith will resemble Freddie Mercury

And the one after that will resemble Alice Cooper.

[dasNdanger]

Wraith can be killed from gunfire even if they've just fed - it takes more bullets but they still die. Feeding on Atlantis and on Earth in 'Miller's Crossing' wouldn't have been a good idea because both places have a lot of armed marines. It would have been very unlikely that Todd could have got to the Stargates and escaped because neither of them have standard DHDs.

True, but if you're starving, you might do something desperate. And Todd did take a lot of torso/chest hits in Common Ground before he fed on those two guards at the end - I'm thinking he was shot about a dozen or so times in that entire episode - and so, he's a tough old bird who might take a chance if he's hungry enough. OR, he could just fake it...

Will we ever learn of tattoos which we can't see? It would be interesting to know where they are.

Todd has a butterfly tattooed on his butt...I just know it...

I haven't seen this so would love to read it. I wish such details would be included in the series now so they become canon rather than just comments which not all SGA viewers will have come across.

Here are the comments from SGA Season 1 Companion...

James Lafazanos’ comments on Wraith characters:

“I like to give a different vibe to each one. There are obviously characteristics that they all share, in that they’re energy-thirsty vampires, but between Steve and the character from The Defiant One and The Siege, I think I gave them all a unique spin. They looked different, but I also gave them a personality, a character that said what their life was about. Particularly Bob in The Siege – he was kind of a ‘bounty hunter’ Wraith. Whenever I was doing the lines for that one I felt this whole ‘Dirty Harry’ thing coming out of me! He was a no-bull taking Wraith who had seen more than most. But there’s definitely room for even stronger characterization of the Wraith.”

“[The Defiant One] is supposed to be ancient, even beyond the age of most Wraith, so I felt that he was kind of like an old pirate, because he was a commander of a ship that crash landed on this planet and he was the only remaining one because he ate all the cargo and his crew. That tells you something about him! Peter DeLuise had a vision for sure, that this one Wraith was pretty much wild, a real brute that had no code of ethics at all, not even amongst Wraith. He was smart, but just animalistic. I remember on the days we were out there in the Richmond desert, he was really pushing me, more than any other episode with any other Wraith character, to really show the buck-wild animal that Wraith can be. And I think it came across…That was probably the most trying of the characters, that particular shoot. It was a really hot week, even for Vancouver, and it was a desert. I was under a lot of make-up, taking all the direction and trying to remember all the details of all the things you have to remember, amongst the heat."

Peter DeLuise’s comments on The Defiant One:

“I got to try to envision what the Wraith were like 10,000 years ago. I tried to create a more barbaric version of the Wraith, because they are quite stoic, more cool-headed than I think they would have been in the past. I left it a little ambiguous, but tried to imply that the guy had been there for 10,000 years. He had been there since the original attack on Atlantis.”

Costume designer Christina McQuarrie, regarding Wraith costumes:

“I was looking at a lot of artwork. Actually, one of the first pictures that I put up on my wall was an artistic representation of a bat. Then somehow, I don’t know why or how, it evolved from that.” The Wraith seen in SGA’s first year came from two distinct echelons of their society… “The Wraith Warriors are the soldiers of the Wraith world, while the guys in the long coats who we call the ‘Male Wraith’ are the officers. One of the good things is that these coats are made out of very heavy leather, so they will take quite a lot of abuse. People aren’t always thinking about costumes when they write the scripts, but surprisingly, this costume, although it does have a flowing skirt, doesn’t create any problems. It’s made in a way that gives freedom of movement because there’s a big split up the back and they’ve got full pants and boots underneath. So they never actually complained about not being able to do stuff in it – I guess that’s a good thing!

“The warriors were very different. The armor was generated by James Robbins in the art department, who is very good at weird pieces! That whole chest piece has technology embedded in it – although we never really saw it to it’s full effect. Then there’s the strange mask that’s almost calcified bone – a lot of it just comes from the dark corners of one’s imagination. Because you just have to keep grabbing things really fast, a lot of it isn’t from any real source, you just have a quirky imagination and come up with ideas.

“[The Defiant One’s] look is basically a derivation of elements from both the warriors and the Male Wraith, but what was very challenging was finding a way of making it look like it has survived for millennia! After much experimentation we developed a method using chemicals that literally ate into the fabric and then we used paint to add depth and texture.”

In the Season 2 Companion, Todd Masters (make-up/FX) mentions a little about Wraith make-up, but sadly nothing about tattoos.

This evolution fo the Wraith face [Michael] is something that Masters would like to have more chance to do. Since most of the Wraith characters are played by the same actors, introducing differences is something of a challenge - though a welcome one. "We changed things behind the scenes, and technique, for season two. As far as design goes we didn't really change anything that much in terms of the overall Wraith design. We stopped using the necks in certain cases. Originally, the Wraith had heads and necks that were a little tighter than was comfortable [for the actors]. But we didn't really change much of the design. As different stories came along we did certain things, like Michael - that was a whole different character so we had a chance to change him. I love to do more Wraith designs, to get variety into those characters."

(the last part may explain the tattoos - simply to get variety in the characters, and nothing more.)

He also mentions 'Geoff Redknap' (director, make-up artist, actor) along with James and Andee, suggesting that he was under Wraith make-up as well. I looked at his credits, and didn't see him as a Wraith, but he WAS both Old Sheppard (in Common Ground) AND Old Col. Sumner (The Rising)!:



If he did play a Wraith (S1 or S2), who could he have been? Probably not someone with speaking lines - any ideas?


das

[ciannwn]

True, but if you're starving, you might do something desperate. And Todd did take a lot of torso/chest hits in Common Ground before he fed on those two guards at the end - I'm thinking he was shot about a dozen or so times in that entire episode - and so, he's a tough old bird who might take a chance if he's hungry enough. OR, he could just fake it...

I don't think Todd was faking it in 'Miller's Crossing'. Maybe he thought it was better to show weakness while in the SGC because trying to feed out of desperation would have been suicidal. We don't know what floor of SGC he was being kept on and, from what I remember, the various sections can be sealed off. In 'Common Ground' he didn't have to face many Genii at one time because they were spread out but there are a lot of armed marines/personnel at SGC and they would have known where he was in the complex at any one time. Also, as Sheppard said in 'Travellers', even a fully fed Wraith couldn't survive bullets in the head. Then there's dialling out when the SGC Stargate doesn't have a DHD - the equipment is in a room overlooking the gate so he'd have needed to go there first to dial and then get down to the actual gate room. The next thing is where could he go from Earth other than back to Atlantis via Midway because he'd hardly have a comprehensive knowledge of Milky Way gate addresses? As he had no ID for the Atlantis gate he'd have just gone splat even if he'd managed to get that far.

Revealing his starvation weakness is, to my mind, a bit of careful planning. He knew that his help was essential when it came to saving Jeannie so it was possible he'd be given a meal so he could complete his task.

Todd has a butterfly tattooed on his butt...I just know it...

Is that a symbol of his gentle, tree hugging, sky enjoying side?

James Lafazanos’ comments on Wraith characters:


Peter DeLuise’s comments on The Defiant One:

Costume designer Christina McQuarrie, regarding Wraith costumes:

In the Season 2 Companion, Todd Masters (make-up/FX) mentions a little about Wraith make-up, but sadly nothing about tattoos.

Thank you for typing all that up. I've saved the information. It's a shame that we weren't given deeper insights into early Wraith characters in the actual show.

He also mentions 'Geoff Redknap' (director, make-up artist, actor) along with James and Andee, suggesting that he was under Wraith make-up as well. I looked at his credits, and didn't see him as a Wraith, but he WAS both Old Sheppard (in Common Ground) AND Old Col. Sumner (The Rising)!:

If he did play a Wraith (S1 or S2), who could he have been? Probably not someone with speaking lines - any ideas?

Maybe he was one of the team leaders in 'The Seige' who beamed down and immediately got killed.