Wraith Defenders Club

[WraithTech]

1: Everyone got to know Teyla before Beckett discovered she had Wraith DNA. When it came to trying out her abilities in 'The Gift', however, there were concerns about her being a security risk.

She was suspected enough because of the transmitting device she unknowingly wore in "Suspicion." If they knew of her wraith DNA beforehand, I wonder if she would have been out the door.

[ciannwn]

The wraith might go on a case-by-case basis, perhaps deferring to the Queen's judgment. Michael's queen said that she only allowed him to live because he could prove to be useful, perhaps because his appearance was radically altered or because he spent so much time as a human.

The conversation between Michael and the Queen in 'No Man's Land' -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/301.shtml

HIVE QUEEN: Yes, Michael? (Her voice is full of scorn as she uses the name given to him by the humans.)

MICHAEL: You should have told me. (The Queen looks at him enquiringly.) That we were going to betray the Atlanteans.

HIVE QUEEN: Are you feeling sympathy for them?

MICHAEL: No. But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

HIVE QUEEN (interrupting): You're only alive because you still may prove to be useful. But I fear, Michael, that the lingering stench of what they have transformed you into will never fade.

What did she mean by 'lingering stench'? We know there are times when Wraith feed on each other and this queen fed on the retrovirused Wraith in 'Allies' as part of the deception. Once she had Earth's location, however, she set off for another galaxy even though the retrovirus plan would have worked. Is it possible that she regarded turning other Wraith into humans as against Wraith morality and despised Michael because he thought it was a viable solution to the food shortage?

The retrovirused wraith all fully believed that they would be accepted back into the next hive when rescued and banded together to call the nearest hive, but Michael said that the wraith who had not fully turned back would likely be sacrificed to the hive and that he would never be accepted. At what point in transition would that transition suffice? If some of the transitioning wraith just needed a few more hours, should present actuality affect a decision regarding very near future potentiality?

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/302.shtml

BECKETT: How many have reverted?

MICHAEL: Those you saw in the forest, plus a few more.

BECKETT: And the others?

MICHAEL: They'll serve as an offering to the hive that's coming for us.

BECKETT: That's hardly bloody fair.

MICHAEL: The strong survive, Doctor. The few of us who began to realise something was wrong got together and formed a plan even while on the medication. The weaker minds among us will stay that way, thanks to your drugs and the training you gave us.

BECKETT: If your memory's coming back, you should remember what happened last time you tried to rejoin the Wraith.

MICHAEL (angrily): It will be enough to escape this rock!

We have to assume that the other reverting Wraith didn't think they'd be rejected by the Wraith who came to rescue them. Michael was convinced that the ones who hadn't reverted would never regain their memories or whatever but he had no evidence for this opinion. It's possible that the rescuing Wraith would have waited to see what happened when the still humanised ones were no longer subjected to Beckett's treatment - it would have been a sensible course of action because they'd have learned more about the retrovirus's effects.

Why was Michael rejected a second time? In 'Vengeance' he says -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/319.shtml

MICHAEL: Do you not recall our last encounter? How you left me to die on that desolate planet? The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. To them, I was unclean. I barely escaped that hive with my life.

Michael's use of the word 'me' in the bolded sentence indicates that he regarded the other reverted Wraith on the planet as irrelevant. For all we know, the others could have been rescued too but the hive didn't reject them as well. What if they told the members of the rescuing hive that Michael had thought retrovirusing other Wraith was a good idea because they had the same opinion about it as their now dead queen? They could have worked with Michael in order to escape but he mightn't have been someone they wanted to associate with afterwards.

[WraithTech]

Why was Michael rejected a second time?

Wow, that is a new and interesting possibility about Michael. Excellent theory!

[ciannwn]

Woolsey also called John out on his attitude before John had to make the decision to fire on the planet:

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/302.shtml

SHEPPARD: What do you want me to say? I supported Elizabeth's decision to form an alliance with Michael and I supported her decision to put all those ... people on the planet.

(Woolsey smiles ironically.)

WOOLSEY: That support hardly shines through when you hesitate to call them “people.”

This doesn't necessarily mean that Sheppard wasn't supporting her decision, though. I think it's understandable if he had a few doubts as to whether the retrovirused Wraith were as human as himself, however. After all, Michael had started to regain his memory and revert at the end of 'Michael' so he could have been wondering if Michael and the other Wraith would do the same in spite of being treated every day.

I'm not a Sheppard fan but I think I'd have been wondering the same thing if I'd been a member of the Atlantis expedition.

She was suspected enough because of the transmitting device she unknowingly wore in "Suspicion." If they knew of her wraith DNA beforehand, I wonder if she would have been out the door.

All the Athosians were under suspicion at first, not just Teyla.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1...ipts/105.shtml

FORD: Shouldn't we wait for Teyla?

WEIR: Teyla wasn't invited.

SHEPPARD: She's a member of my team.

BATES: She's also an Athosian, sir.

SHEPPARD: So?

BATES: If we've been compromised -- and every indication suggests that we have -- it's almost certain that one of them is responsible.

and

BATES: Since you've been here on Atlantis, you've been offworld three times?

HALLING: Yes, I've been acting as a guide on behalf of Sergeant Stackhouse's reconnaissance team, helping to establish relations between your people and some of our former trading partners.

WEIR: Stackhouse reported he lost track of you on a couple of these outings.

HALLING: I did take the time to visit some close friends.

BATES: Interesting. (He looks through his own reports.) Two of your three visits pre-dated Wraith attacks by approximately a day.

WEIR: Sergeant ...

HALLING: What are you suggesting?

BATES: I'm not suggesting anything.

HALLING: You think I would betray my own people? Jeopardise the life of my son?

All the Athosians except Teyla moved to the mainland and Teyla went out on another mission with Sheppard and his team. Teyla went off to talk to the locals and then the Wraith turn up.

BATES: She was conveniently absent during the ambush.

McKAY: So was Ford! Maybe it was him(!)

BATES: I'm just stating a fact, sir.

SHEPPARD: Sergeant ... (He stands and walks over to face Bates.) I am only gonna say this once.

BATES: With all due respect, Major, you can reprimand me if you wish, but it's been six times your team's been compromised. Only one Athosian knew about this last mission.

This is why Bates became convinced that Teyla was passing on information to the Wraith and got McKay to search through her belongings. If Bates had known about her Wraith DNA then he'd have picked on her first.

Now to 'The Gift'

SHEPPARD: You're saying Teyla's part-Wraith?!

BECKETT: A very small part.

WEIR (to John): Which makes her about as different from us as you, because of the Ancient gene you possess.

McKAY: Well, and some other things!

FORD: Still, Bates is gonna go nuts over this.

SHEPPARD: Let's just keep this one under our hat.

Bates isn't too happy about the results of Teyla's first attempt to contact the Wraith because he's the type who sees security threats round every corner.

CONFERENCE ROOM. John and Elizabeth have explained the situation to Sergeant Bates.

BATES: If what you're saying is true, then chances are it was Teyla who gave away the location of our Alpha site to the Wraith!

SHEPPARD: I don't think there was time.

BATES: You don't know that they didn't have a ship in the general area.

WEIR: Look, I admit, in retrospect, asking Teyla to connect with the Wraith may have been a mistake.

BATES: With all due respect, I don't think there's much doubt about that!

SHEPPARD: Take it easy, Sergeant, it's not like she wilfully gave away our position.

Weir is a bit concerned about Teyla's new found ability because it's an unknown quantity but she accepts what Teyla's discovered about it.

WEIR: We are concerned that the Wraith can connect to you at will, though.

TEYLA: It has never happened before. And, no, I am sure I have to connect with them first.

[ciannwn]

Have to go now because my back's given out.

[WraithTech]

This doesn't necessarily mean that Sheppard wasn't supporting her decision, though. I think it's understandable if he had a few doubts as to whether the retrovirused Wraith were as human as himself, however. After all, Michael had started to regain his memory and revert at the end of 'Michael' so he could have been wondering if Michael and the other Wraith would do the same in spite of being treated every day.

I'm not a Sheppard fan but I think I'd have been wondering the same thing if I'd been a member of the Atlantis expedition.

I can see John worrying about Lathan having wandered off because without his medication he would gain memories and revert back just like Michael did when he discovered the discs and stopped taking the medication. He has no way of knowing what Lathan may have remembered or passed on before turning up dead. He plays it down in front of Woolsey:

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/302.shtml

WOOLSEY: It would appear from this incident that the lies you are telling these people are beginning to wear a bit thin.

SHEPPARD: One adverse reaction out of two hundred.


This comes from the man who later tells Vincent, "Only takes one."

[ciannwn]

This comes from the man who later tells Vincent, "Only takes one."

Well, he did have a blaster with no power jammed into Vincent's neck at the time. And he was also gambling on the fact that Vincent didn't know how many humans were still on board.

I thought the ibuprofen I took would get me back for a while but it's not worked very well. Have to go again.

[WraithSlave]

You're so right.

Btw, if you're a cat owner, then try substituting Valerian (a teabag is good) for catnip. They love it... it is hash for cats, I swear.

My Kitty passed away 2 years ago. I'm still trying to recover from the loss, though i have my Algea eater Todd, who ate John the betta fish ..

[ciannwn]

My Kitty passed away 2 years ago. I'm still trying to recover from the loss

*HUgs*

[ciannwn]

WDC Wraith Project

I was thinking we should have a page for memorable masked warriors such as the one who self destructed in Suspicion, the one who got Ford in The Seige and the one Ford and his gang kept prisoner.

The new born warrior from Spoils should be on the Wraith And Actors page because he was played by Morris Chapdelaine.

[Isolde]

I thought the ibuprofen I took would get me back for a while but it's not worked very well. Have to go again.

I have Robaxin for my hip and shoulder, but can't take it during the day as it sends me daft (er). Great if you're in need of a sedative. I really hope you feel a little better today. *hug*

My Kitty passed away 2 years ago. I'm still trying to recover from the loss...

MY special girl died last year, and I miss her terribly. But, at the moment, because she can, Jadzia (small, torty PITA aka 'cat') is making up for lost time, and sitting on my wrists as I type this.

@ cianwwn & Orb: Have to say your long discussion about Michael/Wraith et al is very interesting, although I feel there's nothing I can add that'll take the convo elsewhere. I do have a few theories about the remaining survivors, mostly that they weren't all wiped out, but as to the deeper issues of what makes a human and/or Wraith and where the line stops...? Hypothesising about memory brings at least one question to mind - at least for me - which is we are assuming Wraith brain structure is similar to human, and we have no evidence this is so. Also, given that canon insists, as do many here - despite the shonky science - that they are more insectoid (and I dispute 'insect' as it is an analogy rather than a definite), then aren't we jumping to a few conclusions about how their long term memory is constructed? Hell, we can't agree on the way human memory works yet, as there any number of different models, and no one paradigm allows for all the subtlety/complexity of a pretty remarkable organ.

We can, of course, theorise, and that we should do, as it keeps the Wraith alive.

[ciannwn]

I have Robaxin for my hip and shoulder, but can't take it during the day as it sends me daft (er). Great if you're in need of a sedative. I really hope you feel a little better today. *hug*

I'm down to 5 minutes on the computer at a time.

Hypothesising about memory brings at least one question to mind - at least for me - which is we are assuming Wraith brain structure is similar to human, and we have no evidence this is so. Also, given that canon insists, as do many here - despite the shonky science - that they are more insectoid (and I dispute 'insect' as it is an analogy rather than a definite), then aren't we jumping to a few conclusions about how their long term memory is constructed? Hell, we can't agree on the way human memory works yet, as there any number of different models, and no one paradigm allows for all the subtlety/complexity of a pretty remarkable organ.

My thoughts on the above. (I'm just numbering points because it's easier for me at the moment.)

1: A Wraith brain can't be identical to a human brain because some of their biology is very different.

2: Humans are still arguing over what consciousness is but neuroscience is making headway when it comes to which parts of the brain are involved in things like memory.

http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/d/d_...07_cr_tra.html

Michael and other retrovirused Wratih suffer from pure retrograde amnesia although they can learn new things. This suggests to me that turning a Wraith brain into a human one causes the equivelant of brain damage because an essential part of the brain involved in Wraith long term memory is derived from their Iratus bug ancestry.

3: Teyla is able to tune into the Wraith telepathic network etc because of her Wraith DNA. Why isn't her brain very different from an ordinary human's? In the SGA universe, the human brain can develop telepathy and other super abilities It's explained in The Tao Of Rodney as -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/314.shtml

BECKETT: The scans show a dramatic increase in synaptic interaction throughout all the sections of Rodney’s brain -- much higher than normal human levels.

McKAY: Look, that device I found must have been some kind of an accelerator. We know that the Ancients developed all kinds of powers as they evolved,

Maybe Teyla's Wraith DNA didn't change the structure of her brain to any great extent - it just triggered off something in the Stargate human brain which can evolve telepathic abilities. Humans are still arguing over whether telepathy exists in the real world - orthodox scientists say no while some unorthodox scientists say yes. Scientists with differing opinions can end up making very rude remarks about each other which tells us a lot about scientists even though it doesn't tell us much about telepathy.

[Isolde]

Michael and other retrovirused Wratih suffer from pure retrograde amnesia although they can learn new things. This suggests to me that turning a Wraith brain into a human one causes the equivelant of brain damage because an essential part of the brain involved in Wraith long term memory is derived from their Iratus bug ancestry.

Maybe Teyla's Wraith DNA didn't change the structure of her brain to any great extent - it just triggered off something in the human brain which can evolve telepathic abilities.

Equivalent: I see it more like the virus blocks receptors in the brain from receiving electrical impulses. Many, many drugs already perform in this manner, and it's just a small leap to imagine that an artificially constructed phage, delivered by injection/drip, or weaponised as an aerosol, could do the same. If it really was brain damage, and you will have to take my word for it as I have some background in this, including that caused by a chemical, there is no proper return of memory; it has a tendency to be patchy, unless the patient is very lucky. New pathways can be constructed using repetition, so patterns form, and though it has been found neurons can grow from stem cells in the ventricles, there is no evidence to show - yet (the magic word ) - they actually have a known function. However, it does give us some interesting areas of development, with particular applications for Alzheimer's. Often, sadly, chemicals accelerate the deterioration of the brain and memory.

Teyla's DNA: You know how I feel about this area, and that human and Wraith are far more alike, at the biochemical/genetic level, than canon allows for. Even that quote of McKay's is what I call fudging, and plot device, as it isn't an explanation, not really. I think that her Wraith DNA triggered something in human genes is a good working theory, but also points towards more similarities at the genetic level.

[Bajka20]

*Magically turns all of the Wraith into kitties and watches them play*



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c0yDSgj6Xs


Now watch what Eddie (grey, first one) does to Steve (in front of Eddie) and Kenny (in front of Steve), Bullseye (on the left of Kenny), and Greg (behind Kenny) and Shawn (on the right of Greg). Because we all know Eddie would do this

Bad boy.

[ciannwn]

Equivalent: I see it more like the virus blocks receptors in the brain from receiving electrical impulses. Many, many drugs already perform in this manner, and it's just a small leap to imagine that an artificially constructed phage, delivered by injection/drip, or weaponised as an aerosol, could do the same. If it really was brain damage, and you will have to take my word for it as I have some background in this, including that caused by a chemical, there is no proper return of memory; it has a tendency to be patchy, unless the patient is very lucky.

The one problem with using real life humans as a model for all this is that we're speculating about a fictional species which is evolved from humans crossed with a species of insect which doesn't exist in reality.

Beckett's retrovirus does this -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2...ipts/207.shtml

BECKETT: And part of her comes from a creature we call the iratus bug.

BECKETT: It's the part that makes her look the way she does, and where her desire to feed comes from.

BECKETT: Now, it's possible by means of this retrovirus, we can strip away those parts, and leave only the human parts behind.

The result of retroviusing a Wraith is as realistic as humans turning into birds and animals in fairy tales and sword and sorcery movies. Strip the Iratus bug parts away and you get a human with amnesia. When the retrovirus effect starts wearing off the Iratus bug parts start returning along with memory.

New pathways can be constructed using repetition, so patterns form, and though it has been found neurons can grow from stem cells in the ventricles, there is no evidence to show - yet (the magic word ) - they actually have a known function. However, it does give us some interesting areas of development, with particular applications for Alzheimer's. Often, sadly, chemicals accelerate the deterioration of the brain and memory.

Wraith could be very different, however, because their Iratus bug parts give them super regeneration abilities. Perhaps this extends to brain damage too. After examining the severed Wraith arm in Rising, Beckett explained this ability as due to -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1...ipts/102.shtml

BECKETT: These cells have none of the normal human inhibiting proteins whatsoever. That gives them an incredible ability to regenerate.

After a brief bit of research concerning inhibiting proteins I came to the conclusion that Beckett's statement is something which sounds good until you go to google.

I think that her Wraith DNA triggered something in human genes is a good working theory, but also points towards more similarities at the genetic level.

Maybe the real answer to it all is that the similarities/differences between Wraith and humans depended on whatever a particular plot required.