Wraith Defenders Club

[ciannwn]

And...lemme see...there's the Rodney and Wraith take a shower one: http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....postcount=3193

I love the last line in that story.

[Shanthaia]

'


This implies that they didn't arrive on the bug planet via an orbital Stargate and our suspicions are confirmed when we see the egg hunters leave through the Atlantis gate on foot on their second attempt. Going by what we know of Stargates, 'Conversion' and 'Thirty Eight Minutes' involve two different planets rather than one planet which has both an orbital Stargate and a land based one. So how did bugs get from planet to planet when they wouldn't be capable of using land based Stargates let alone orbital ones? Well, the Ancients were fond of having humans everywhere. Maybe the Wraith were fond of Iratus bugs and seeded them on a number of different planets once they had space ships with hyperdrives so they could manage locations with orbital gates. Another possibility is that TPTB forgot that the bug planet had an orbital gate.

well, or iratus bugs make nice pets when they are cuddly and small, but get somewhat neglected when grown up and on a hiberanting hive and just venture out of it when bored too long in a parking hive

[Ergo]

Spoiler:

ciannwn;9589524]' Rising Part One' -

[I]HOLOGRAM: Then one day our people stepped foot upon a dark world where a terrible enemy slept. Never before had we encountered beings with powers that rivalled our own. In our over-confidence, we were unprepared and outnumbered.

(i'm new to this so don't get mad)

[/spoiler]This could of been made after the Ancients came to the Pegasus Galaxy...say maybe about 5000 years after they found the Iratus bug and it feeded on the humans(Ancients)..

Spoiler:

These had to be fully evolved Wraith with advanced technology and hive ships because that's the only way this terrible enemy could have qualified as beings with powers to rival the Ancients' own.

If the Wraith were already there then where did they get the Human DNA??If i remember right....the Ancients seeded the Pegasus Galaxy with humans and if the wraith were already there then humans had to be there as well for them to feed on and get the DNA from....

Spoiler:

Sheppard has his encounter with an Iratus bug in 'Thirty Eight Minutes'. It happens on a planet with an orbital Stargate. In 'Conversion' they decide to go on an egg hunt.

McKAY: The Ancient database has quite a lot of information about the iratus bug. We know what planet it's on, we know that it likes cool damp dark places to lay its eggs.

There's nothing odd about the egg hunters being on foot when they're looking for a bug nest because Sheppard and co. often park a Puddle Jumper and go somewhere on foot. When they have to make a retreat from the nest, though, Lorne says -

LORNE: .. I'm pulling the plug on this mission. Let's get back to the Gate.

This implies that they didn't arrive on the bug planet via an orbital Stargate and our suspicions are confirmed when we see the egg hunters leave through the Atlantis gate on foot on their second attempt. Going by what we know of Stargates, 'Conversion' and 'Thirty Eight Minutes' involve two different planets rather than one planet which has both an orbital Stargate and a land based one. So how did bugs get from planet to planet when they wouldn't be capable of using land based Stargates let alone orbital ones? Well, the Ancients were fond of having humans everywhere. Maybe the Wraith were fond of Iratus bugs and seeded them on a number of different planets once they had space ships with hyperdrives so they could manage locations with orbital gates. Another possibility is that TPTB forgot that the bug planet had an orbital gate.

Well if i remember right.....rats stoled away on ships.why can't the Iratus bugs???.....But i think your right about this one.......

Spoiler:

Where did the Wraith evolve? We have no idea because that dark world referred to by the hologram wasn't neccessarily their planet of origin. We were told that the enemy was sleeping so maybe the Wraith were hibernating and the Ancients came across a planet where one or more hive ships had been parked.

agin the DNA shows that the Wraith are part human.......but the thing that i want to know the most is what did the wraith feed on before the Ancients came???that is the only thing i see wrong with this..

Spoiler:

So what can we deduce from this muddle?

1: The Wraith originated on a world which had been seeded with humans.

right...

Spoiler:

2: The original world was in some far flung corner of the Pegasus galaxy because the Ancients forgot about it, This corner was so far flung, in fact, that hive ships could fly around without the Ancients noticing.

right

Spoiler:

3: If the Ancients had discovered the original world and one of them had met up with a bug in the way that Sheppard did the other Ancients would have found a way of removing it from lunch. The bug would then have become an interesting study specimen. If some bugs on this planet had already started on the evolutionary route to becoming Wraith the Ancients would have found this interesting too. Maybe they just didn't bother going back to monitor the evolving bugs but would they have been so careless as to neglect adding a warning to the information in their database? Well, we know they had a tendency to be careless so maybe this information didn't include a warning. Every so often somebody would visit the planet and get fed on and nobody at home noticed that he/she had gone missing or bothered to send out a search party.

now that i belive XD.....

In 'The Defiant One' Greg says -

WRAITH: I've fed upon countless thousands of humans, Atlanteans, even a part of my own crew. And I will feed upon you before this day is done.

This could just mean that Wraith didn't get to feed on Ancients until the war.

Now to another question.

Spoiler:

Sheppard didn't start turning into a bug after he'd been fed on in 'Thirty Eight Minutes'. His mutating was the result of Ellia infecting him with Beckett's prototype retrovirus.

TODD: A terminally ill Wraith could occasionally restore himself to perfect health if he allowed an iratus bug, as you call them – specifically a queen – to feed on him.

It's only queen bugs which have that magic ingredient which turned Todd back into to a healthy, human-eating Wraith. If the bugs are like Wraith in that a colony consists of one queen and hundreds of males the odds are that Sheppard encountered a male. If so the bug wouldn't have had that magic ingredient.

[/QUOTE]

i don't think Todd was turned back into a Human-eating Wraith....i think he was just cured of the disease he had....does any one have a pic of Todds hands after he was cured??

[Shanthaia]

[spoiler]ciannwn;9589524]' Rising Part One' -

This could of been made after the Ancients came to the Pegasus Galaxy...say maybe about 5000 years after they found the Iratus bug and it feeded on the humans(Ancients)..


i don't think Todd was turned back into a Human-eating Wraith....i think he was just cured of the disease he had....does any one have a pic of Todds hands after he was cured??

The very forst scene of the SGA intruduction film says the ancient flew away with their Atlantis ship several million years ago...so plenty of time the seed a galaxy, forget to monitore some far off planets and iratus bug evolving...

regarding Todd

Spoiler:

There is no picture of his restored feeding hand in EatG, however the question: "Is Todd fully restord?" has been asked at Joe Malozzies blog and was answered with yes and the scenes regarding the fully restored to human feeding Todd have been left out due to length issues

[ciannwn]

agin the DNA shows that the Wraith are part human.......but the thing that i want to know the most is what did the wraith feed on before the Ancients came???that is the only thing i see wrong with this..?

The only thing that makes any kind of sense is if the Iratus bugs were there before the Ancients arrived to seed Pegasus with humans. This now raises more questions.

1: What did Iratus bugs feed on before humans turned up?

2 Why did feeding on humans cause some bug lines to evolve into Wraith?

3: Why haven't all bugs in Pegasus evolved into hybrids of whatever they feed on?

Here's a suggestion.

Iratus bugs and their natural prey would have evolved together. When a queen feeds on natural prey its DNA doesn't effect any egg she lays even if it's straight after a meal. Human DNA, however, is alien to the Pegasus galaxy so it does cause a mutation in an egg embryo if a queen lays an egg straight after a meal.

[Solla]

There may have been more, I dunno. Most you guys have probably already seen, but some newer members haven't. Enjoy!
das

That was brilliant, das! You should write your own scenarios.

[Wraith Cake]

This leaves us free to have lengthy discussions about Wraith biology even though it's really nonsense. As Wraith are the product of fantasy evolution we needn't spoil our fun by being too logical when we go about it.

What you're saying in a nutshell is: "the wraith story, it's all pap anyway...sexy pap of course, but pap nonetheless." The problem with this argument is that there really is no point discussing their biology if you can't make any sense of it--if you're going to use a smattering of science, then don't call it "science", call it...say..."a coke float". If everything is arbitrary, which is essentially what you're saying, why do you speculate the way you speculate--scientifically?

This should also be part of your reasoning, according to your logic: "hey they're not ruled by Queens but by the Rattollah Molehomeini"; the iratus bug isn't a distant relation--they visit on Sundays. They're at least half a product of auntie iratus doin' the hankie pankie with the happy face spider.

Spoiler:

Cousin piglet squid,

Spoiler:

we at least know is related to Happy Face, though his tentacle hair does look a little like the Primary's. So this is all to say, the wraith don't have nipples they have candy-canes they use as antenna, especially in the desert, because who doesn't need a candy-cane in the desert?

WK

I know what I'll do, instead of answering in English whenever we ask questions about wraith biology, I'll answer "in code". Perhaps I try speaking Nadsad, because you know, nothing makes sense anyway!

[Wraith Cake]

I asked like 16 questions. Not really bad ones. And he didn't answer a single thing. I'm done with that blog.

I was sooooo done with it a long time ago. I find it very tiring.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

Every story reflects the writers knowledge but also their outlook and moral principles. IMHO the latter points are even more important, because well-written suspense stories attract tons of people of all ages and develop some ideas. These stories touch our mind and soul, encourage us to ponder on more meaningful things in life, to look «behind things».

Apart from high jinks and entertainment the writers - intentionally or unintentionally - open some ethic problems and show us the possible ways of their solution. And what we have been shown in such episodes as «Poisoning the well», «Michael», «Misbeggoten»? Double standard policy, lie, hypocrisy, cruelty and many other «wonderful things» our brave heroes are so proud. There was an important moment in the 1.7. - when Beckett felt a shock after Chancellor’s question about the next stage of testing, it was only a moment, but a very serious one, because it was his first reaction, actually a voice of conscience - «Stop, you are doing something terribly wrong». Then there were hesitations, all those talks (he is gonna die anyway, bla-bla-bla), champagne chin-chin and the wheel began to turn .

And we are talking about science ignorance

Well, yes, and this is forgivable. I think there are also too many writers in the writing kitchen. JM alluded to it when (or was it Carl Binder) he said the network wanted something, something something Keller inserted in a film clip instead of Todd revealing something interesting.

Yes, there are really interesting moments in the show, and overall I haven't really been that dissatisfied with it except for it ending (and a few silly episodes). I think the biggest issue is it has become, and perhaps I am naive about this because it has always been, nothing more than a titillating fest just to make money. For instance, why on earth cancel the show just to make a movie that really isn't a movie, but an extended show? Oh right, because it is CHEAPER which of course is an on going issue (and a legitimate one), but be honest about that, please don't exploit the fans by repackaging it as something else.

I'm sorry, I have issues with the corporate film industry in general. I love film, and narrative and all that yada yada, but I do have problems with greed.



WK

[Solla]

It would have been nice to have the Wraith

Spoiler:

'safe from getting shot' by having their feeding hand removed, if of course the price they had to pay for it was worth it, still longevity, and regeneration, speed, etc. but apparently it's not meant to happen.

I was looking forward to such a thing, if they all did that, or a faction did it, but I get that Todd only sucker-less out there is a bad thing. What if his rivals see his hand? So it was a semi-sad moment, but with him sucker-less, perhaps he was going to be thinking about that therapy some more, perfect it (or is Keller supposed to be doing that?), but now... I guess they'll just dump the storyline all together? So the last 12 episodes have all been for nothing?

Agree, some things are really disturbing . I am not sure about the writers and the chaos that's going on in their #### heads, but I personally don't see anything wrong with the gene therapy line. In fact, it is the optimal solution - the wolves are sated and the sheeps are safe. As for extra healing and longevity... well, that's the price they should pay for peaceful co-existence (let alone interactions) with neighbouring civilizations and their own development (both national and personal). Evolution is a cruel and merciless thing - humans can live without wraith, while wraith can't. Michael and Todd understood that well.

[ciannwn]

What you're saying in a nutshell is: "the wraith story, it's all pap anyway...sexy pap of course, but pap nonetheless." The problem with this argument is that there really is no point discussing their biology if you can't make any sense of it--if you're going to use a smattering of science, then don't call it "science", call it...say..."a coke float".

What about biobabble to go with the technobabble? The Gateworld transcript for 'Conversion' includes "Real microbiologists and geneticists may want to leave the room for this particular barrage of medico-babble."

Gateworld has a sub forum called 'Science And Tech' which is for those forum members who enjoy talking about science babble and impossible technology. Discussion topics range from whether Priors would produce super-human offspring to speculation such as which ship would win if a Ha'tak and a Klingon Battle Cruiser got into a fight.

Morals and ethics turn up a lot as discussion topics in various sub forums. Buring issues include questions such as are Wraith evil just because they evolved to feed on humans and is turning them into amnesiac humans with a retrovirus any different to genocide. You and I are having our discussion in the WDC. Why are club members bothering to defend nonsensical, fictional space vampires who are really just actors with bits stuck on their faces?

If everything is arbitrary, which is essentially what you're saying, why do you speculate the way you speculate--scientifically?

I speculate according to the rules set up by TPTB. It's fantasy science which is based on elements of real world science. I have no problem speculating about complete and utter nonsense because -

1: I have fun trying to discover what might have given TPTB their ideas. This is also educational because I've learned all kinds of things while doing research.

2: Even though SGA is finished as a TV series we'll still be having movies. TPTB might throw in further iinformation about Wraith if it suits a future plot so the more we speculate the more likely it is that we'll hit on something which TPTB are thinking of using sometime. We can then gleefully say "Aha. We were right." if it turns up in a movie.

My attitude probably goes back to English Literature lessons at school where we studied 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'. Part of the plot includes the following -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Bottom


While they are in the woods rehearsing, the fairy Puck, a mischievous sprite and minion of Oberon, king of the fairies, happens upon their rehearsal. He decides to have some fun with them, carrying out part of Oberon's orders in the process, and when Bottom (as Pyramus) exits the stage, he transforms his head into a donkey's.

We were expected to discuss character motivations etc in class and then go home and write essays. It wouldn't have gone down well if somebody had written an essay on the following lines -

"What's the point of analysing anything because Shakespeare wrote a load of drivel. There are no such things as fairies and it's impossible for a man's head to be transformed into a donkey's head."

We also studied 'Macbeth'. It wouldn't have gone down well if somebody had written an essay like this either -

"What's the point of analysing anything because this play is historically inaccurate. It also includes three witches who can see the future and the Greek Goddess, Hecate which is the same the same kind of drivel as half the plot of 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'."

This should also be part of your reasoning, according to your logic: "hey they're not ruled by Queens but by the Rattollah Molehomeini";

Wraith are ruled by Queens because TPTB say they are. This is cannon.

[CedrusTuri]

...personally don't see anything wrong with the gene therapy line. In fact, it is the optimal solution - the wolves are sated and the sheeps are safe....

But for how long?

Nature abhors a vacuum, how long would it be before the natural 'aggression' of the Wraith (mentioned on numerous occasions so I don't think I'm speaking out of turn) took over and, without being directed toward the need to feed, was channelled into total domination/subjugation of the other Pegasus inhabitants.

Just playing devil's advocate - don't shoot me.

[ciannwn]

Nature abhors a vacuum, how long would it be before the natural 'aggression' of the Wraith (mentioned on numerous occasions so I don't think I'm speaking out of turn) took over and, without being directed toward the need to feed, was channelled into total domination/subjugation of the other Pegasus inhabitants.

If the Wraith were wiped out and the Tau'ri stayed away from Pegasus how long before -

Spoiler:

The rogue Asgard took over and used the human inhabitants for research? If the Tau'ri got rid of the Asgard first, how long before the Genii started to create their own empire because they are technologically advanced compared to most of the human societies?

[GoSpikey]

Guys, have you picked your top 5 for Blu Ray release yet?

Hmm...

Rising
The Siege
BAMSR
The Queen
Enemy At The Gate


Sound good? Think they'll put all 3 The Sieges on it, then? :s

So that's Jimmy/Mantis, Bob, Penny!Todd, Chris!Todd and Tommy, Todd, and Todd.

Oh yeah.

I wanted to put Common Ground on it, but eh... Nothing much really happening in there, spectacle wise. Though, a feeding hand in Blu Ray quality... *Thunk*

[keeperofthehive]

The first scene in 'Rising Part One' is a flashback to when Atlantis left Earth for Pegasus. We're told it happened several million years ago. Once they were settled in the Lanteans got to work.

HOLOGRAM: ... in the hope of spreading new life in a galaxy where there appeared to be none. Soon the new life grew, prospered

HOLOGRAM: ... exchange knowledge and friendship. (Above her head a three dimensional holographic map of the galaxy appears.) In time, a thousand worlds bore the fruit of life in this form.

I'm guessing that the Lanteans were only concerned with intelligent humanoid life because the Pegasus galaxy is full of humans. Logically the Iratus bugs evolved in Pegasus before the Lanteans filled it up with an alien (to that galaxy) species.. Some bugs had access to humans for lunch and eventually evolved into Wraith with their over specialised diet. The bugs without access to humans continued to feed on what they'd always fed on and are still around to act as useful plot devices.

This still doesn't explain how the Lanteans didn't know the Wraith existed until they'd become a power to rival theirs.



Nobody has really figured out how and why humans came to specialise in 'big brains' etc. Richard Dawkins introduced the idea of memes and Susan Blackmore expanded on this in 'The Meme Machine'. If she's correct, the Wraith would have developed into meme machines because of their human DNA. If our special abilities are due to something else the Wraith would still have developed them due to their human DNA. Human DNA is that magic ingredient.




Now to the Kalahari Bushmen who are still living in small, co-operative groups.

The Cosmic Nature Of Bushman Law

Subsistence hunting and gathering requires group formation. In a habitat as barren as the central Kalahari Desert, the groups or ?bands?, as they are known in the literature, are per force small in size and highly mobile. In fact, a central Kalahari Bushman band seldom numbers more than fifty members.

The band has no chief or leader. Kalahari Bushman society simply does not lend itself to a centralized, hierarchical structure with specialized personnel. Decisions affecting the social life of the band are arrived at through discussions in which all adult and near-adult members of the band, irrespective of whether they are male or female, are welcome to participate. Discussion is informal, is not conducted in any special place, and seldom takes the form of a single, set-piece debate.

Hi there ciannwn.

Thank you for all those well- researched posts! I especially liked the one about the Bushmen; that is just incredible, and really an uplifting comment on human nature.

As for technobabble and biobabble: well of course it's all nonsense.

Spoiler:

The science (correction: ALL the sciences and engineering too, i'm told) on SGA is extremely bad.
But i think the discussions do serve a purpose because if we force ourselves to stick to canon, and speculate something like "Well , suppose a species is supposed to evolve from insect to sentient mammalian form in just a million years; how would you do it? What would have to be true?" then you still learn a lot from the research posted and the fun ideas being tossed around. If you immediately point out that this is nonense, you put yourself into a box and go nowhere.

Don't know what immediately practical info is supposed to come from this,

Spoiler:

but NASA wants to spend one billion dollars to launch LISA which, among other things, will study the black hole thought to be at the center of our galaxy. It has pretty much been established that straight-line point A to point B travel in space is not a practical reality and people like Steven Hawking and Michio Kaku are talking about folding space and space-time, whatever that actually means mathematically. I can't help wondering why NASA would commit so much funding to this particular project.

Just one pet peeve:

Spoiler:

is it just me or do people seem to be missing the point that SGA characters always explain their ideas as speculation, never as an actual conclusion. The seeming inconsistencies in comments made about the Wraith origin are not ever given as "canon facts". I always thought they were giving us fans a way out.

Now, in good keeping with ciannwn's glowing example, i will try to go find and post the NASA link. I just don't want this post to "time out" and all this typing will be for nothing.