Wraith Defenders Club

[leksa]

You just have to look at the hair! I bet he knitted that!

[Noir]

How we can be sure that love, justice, mercy and equality are not something connected exclusively to us, humans?
Neither of those things exist outside the humans or humans creations.

How can you be sure that other people except yourself are feeling anything? You don't know it for sure, don't you? You assume that other people do have feelings - but do you know this for sure? Have you ever felt what others are feeling? I don't think so. You can only feel what YOU are feeling. Nothing more.

So how can you say that feelings - for example love - don't exist among animals? What about an ape mother that cares lovingly about her child? Or what about the dog that refuses to feed or drink after his master's dead? Do they all have no feelings?

(Hm...nice mistake of me (Germanism ). I guess grammatically correct English would be "the ape mother...it" or "the dog...it", but I guess I'll leave it, because I don't look upon animals as things. )

[Laura Dove]

However, what if the Wraith were real? How many of us Wraith Defenders would stand around admiring them? or would you run as fast as you could in the opposite direction?
Would we all become Wraith Worshippers for real? Or would the instinct for survival take over and make you stay away from them (even hate them)?

I still have tons of points I never replied to due to lack of time, but this one is quick enough. My attitude towards wraith wouldn't change if they were real. I would defend my life savagely if it comes to that, but I would mostly try and convince them that I'm more useful alive than dead. If they accept my help, I would assist them in culling Earth, because I believe it's the best thing that could happen to our poor exhausted planet.

I would be nothing like a worshipper, however; I'm just not good at worshipping anything or anybody. I have my own pride and wouldn't let them look down at me. (Er... except for the whole "wraith are all giants" thing: I think I'm shorter than Teyla, and I never wear huge heels! ) I would basically do the same things a worshipper would, except I would never call wraith "master" and I would learn their tech in secret. And if they treat me like crap, I'd blast their hive out of the sky and find another one with more compatible views on my position among them.

[Wraith Cake]

I agree with you WK.

I believe they control their instincts - they are sentient beings after all. If they didn't control themselves, then they would just ravage all the food supply and their would be no humans left to feed on for later on. I think in some scenes they have been betrayed as savage and uncivilized. But I think their society is more complicated than that. We are not privy to this society in great detail. IMO.

Seven

Well exactly, and I appreciate your point. Painting them as being incapable of controlling their instincts DOES paint them with a "savage" brush. And second point taken as well, if they had no self control they would most certainly ravage all the humans in the Pegasus Galaxy then starve to death. Mmmm--no.

Finally, the whole reason why Shepard and Todd are allies is because Shepard realized Todd "could" control his instincts--like we all do. Todd's not's some automaton at the whim and call of his genetic impulses.

On the forest floor, when Todd and Shep are resting and Todd hears the guards, he sits up looking a little uncertain as to what to do. Then he goes over to Shep, wakes him up then tells him the guards are coming. At that point he feeds off of Shepard. Why would he do say to John "They're coming" if all Shepard was, was breakfast? Did he wake up hungry?--No. Shepard was off, off, off the menu. The implication from this scene is that Todd needed to feed in order to protect them both, not because his hand, like a magnet, pulled him toward Shep's body.

The whole reason why Atlantis has an alliance with the wraith through Todd is because Shepard realized that the wraith are not these impulse driven monsters/savages, that simply need to be wiped out. It's almost like Shepard realized "Ooooo--the wraith are not just instinct driven savages. Ah hah! They can control themselves....hmmmm...that's interesting. Maybe this one's different."


WK

[Wraith Cake]

@WK: You saidI enjoyed reading your thoughts on books and accessibility; I think it applies to sci-fi shows (and fantasy for that matter), too. And it's probably the reason so many people find it hard to sympathize with aliens like the Wraith.

Ya, interesting. Unless you identify with the wraith--then they become your "access" point. For me, I identify with the queens. Because I'm a bit of a queen myself.


WK

[Wraith Cake]

Thank you for such a lovely explanation. I understand you now much better. And yeah, your situations are tricky.
It is so hard to bring judgement on something and at the same time not offend anyone.
This your explanation reminded me on one more thing why I'll be a lousy teacher. I prefer to stick to the facts not to the things which are "politically correct."

Thank you once more for nice explanation.

Thank you! I'm so glad you're on the forum here!!!!

OT
And you're know you're right, it is so politically correct it's sickening--at times. My goodness, it's almost like there is no room for humour!!! As much as I am a huge proponent of protecting the dignity and worth of every child, deducting late marks because a student has been too undisciplined to hand something in on time is inexcusable. The board would say "well, we don't know why this student couldn't hand this assignment in on time". Actually, yes we do--especially when he/she says "I left it at home and didn't feel like finishing it." When this happens, I'll open up my mark book to a blank page and have the student himself or herself write in a "O" next to their name, so that they cannot complain that I gave them a zero. clearly, the student wrote it in my book.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

What books?
The show is not based on any book, as far as I know.

No, sorry, the books that have been written subsequent to the start of the season. I've never read those books, I probably won't pick one up either. I might pick up a comic if they're ever produced, but again it would have to be from an author I have regard for.

WK

[Sevenofnine]

Spoiler:

Didn't Jason want to leave in season 6 so who would take Ronan place? Todd? ....oh no he was more powerful as a sometime friend/enemy....err I hate that theought Todd on team Atlantis...yuck. Poor Todd.

MCH

Spoiler:

Well I hope Todd isn't going to be on the team - and I wouldn't mind if Jason leaves - I think his character has gone downhill - he is so monosyllable - like in infection - "sounds good to me" da! To me he is very caveman like - and I think he was more sophisticated before he became a runner - yeah I know running would have changed him, but revenge and hatred just eat at a person and it is eating at Ronon! He doesn't look at the BIG picture. He can't see that Todd is an ally and they have to make concessions. So I would have been glad when Ronon left if we had a Season 6 if it was going to happen at all!

Seven

[leksa]

Sorry - I'm really not keeping up with the discussions - just too much going on right now...

BUT...

It would make sense that Wraith prefer free-range. First, they seem to enjoy the hunt - gets the juices flowing, as they say. Second, we know they enjoy the taste of human emotions, and I'm sure not just one emotion, but several. Cloned 'meat' just wouldn't have the flavor or variety that they'd get from free-range humans. So, it would make sense that they enjoy humans as is, so to speak.

Oh - and let's not forget...Todd prefers fruit.

Farmers, that is. Obviously, he likes humans that work under the heat of the sun. Probably makes 'em all warm and toasty tasting.


das

Yeah, the free-range does taste better. Let's face it. More active animal is more healthy is and more tasty. Of course that's same for us.
What puzzles me here why the Wraith never invented something like portable food source which will allow them more mobility and open more possibilities for the research and exploration of the parts of the universe far away from their "farms".

[Replicator Fifth]

Yeah, the free-range does taste better. Let's face it. More active animal is more healthy is and more tasty. Of course that's same for us.
What puzzles me here why the Wraith never invented something like portable food source which will allow them more mobility and open more possibilities for the research and exploration of the parts of the universe far away from their "farms".

many don't apply the same rules to humans. but we are animals.

Fifth:I am not Edible...

[leksa]

How can you be sure that other people except yourself are feeling anything? You don't know it for sure, don't you? You assume that other people do have feelings - but do you know this for sure? Have you ever felt what others are feeling? I don't think so. You can only feel what YOU are feeling. Nothing more.

So how can you say that feelings - for example love - don't exist among animals? What about an ape mother that cares lovingly about her child? Or what about the dog that refuses to feed or drink after his master's dead? Do they all have no feelings?

(Hm...nice mistake of me (Germanism ). I guess grammatically correct English would be "the ape mother...it" or "the dog...it", but I guess I'll leave it, because I don't look upon animals as things. )

Nice argument. And true in essence.
Also gives all bunch of other philosophical problems. If I assume that I cannot get out of my head, then how I can be sure that this picture of the female ape is simply make us to attribute it certain meaning whiteout that meaning actually being there.
However, my point is different. I'm saying that there is no justice, love and etc. in universe. I'm saying that's our creation.
Let us go back to the female ape. You say she loves her offspring. I say she is the victim of the chemicals in her blood which force her to care for her offspring because that's how is she made. Without those chemicals in her body she would not give s*** for that young one.

[chocolate_muffin]

Yeah, the free-range does taste better. Let's face it. More active animal is more healthy is and more tasty. Of course that's same for us.
What puzzles me here why the Wraith never invented something like portable food source which will allow them more mobility and open more possibilities for the research and exploration of the parts of the universe far away from their "farms".

Ah, but they did invent a portable food source. They have statis pods for their food - like fridges, keeps the snacks tasty and fresh They also do not need to feed as often as humans need to eat to keep their energy at an efficient level, hence the need for a portable snack is not as great as with our species.

[ciannwn]

Let us go back to the female ape. You say she loves her offspring. I say she is the victim of the chemicals in her blood which force her to care for her offspring because that's how is she made. Without those chemicals in her body she would not give s*** for that young one.

Isn't that the same for humans? The only difference between a human mother and an ape mother is that the human puts a label on the chemical reactions and calls them love.

[Laura Dove]

Isn't that the same for humans? The only difference between a human mother and an ape mother is that the human puts a label on the chemical reactions and calls them love.

My thoughts exactly!

[leksa]

Isn't that the same for humans? The only difference between a human mother and an ape mother is that the human puts a label on the chemical reactions and calls them love.

Yes, it is. Exactly the same. That's why I'm saying that according the scientific point of view there is no love, justice, etc. Just our labels.

Therefore I do not like to attribute those labels to the Alien species. They might have some completely different labels for the similar behavior (care for the offspring).