About the cancellation...

[Skie]

In fact, a lot of the complaints that fans had with their writing wasn't acknowledged until they started promoting SGU and then suddenly they were talking about the creative problems with SGA as if SGA had been written by different writers. Bizarre.

Really?! THAT IS WEIRD. But then again they forgot all the time what their characters had experienced in previous episodes, so why should they remember something like that. And they were never asked about this in an interview?

The closest they came to paying for being so cavalier about their writing is when they killed off Carson Beckett (a decision they still claim wasn't made by them). However, even there they managed to slap something together by bringing him back even though they didn't have any intention of substantially using the character again.

Did they explain then how it happened. It certainly wasn't PMG, he wanted to stay in the show. Yes, the cloning was just ... out of touch with reality.

Because they had no problem randomly changing them to fit the writers' needs or current view and it didn't seem to matter whether their current view made sense for the character.

For me, the realization came definitely when I started to hate certain characters, which I liked or loved at the beginning.

For instance, according to Martin Gero, the writers always thought Radek Zelenka wasn't well liked, yet that's not what we saw on screen. They even went so far as to try to make it seem like he was a hair sniffing perv when Keller mentioned him in Season 4's Trio. They did something similar with Sheppard because, again according to Gero, they (the writers) had decided to move away from having Sheppard be Mensa level smart. Because of this, we got that strange scene where Daniel and Rodney mocked Sheppard in Season 5's First Contact.

Yes, those two examples were really astounding scenes and certainly nails for the coffin of SGA, at least for me.

In each case, years of what we had seen on screen was supposed to be flushed down the drain just because the writers decided to go in a different direction. Good writers understand that making major changes to a character is something that has to be handled carefully and in stages. The creative process seemed like a free for all where they just bounced ideas off each other based on what they were interested in at the time.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up for me. They had so many great characters but were incapable of doing anything with them after their creation. I think if they had some sort of supervision, which would have forced the writers to take responsibility for their writing, things could have been so much better. Because obviously they were able to create interesting characters or situations but lacked the discipline to develop them properly. This is hard work of course and it seemed that TPTB were, like you said, only interested in the fun part of writing.

However, RCC may have finally learned his lesson because JM said that he got the request to write a series bible from RCC.

They are working together on which project? Great, finally one of the writers got it, at least SGA was good for something.

The character inconsistencies was my biggest complaint about SGA.

Yes, that bothered me the most too together with the lack of character development, especially for Ronon.

[maxbo]

Really?! THAT IS WEIRD. But then again they forgot all the time what their characters had experienced in previous episodes, so why should they remember something like that. And they were never asked about this in an interview?

Unfortunately, they rarely gave interviews to those who will ask them tough questions and not give them an out when they answer. So, no they've never been asked to explain their bizarre "it wasn't me" type of comments where the writing for SGA was concerned.

Did they explain then how it happened. It certainly wasn't PMG, he wanted to stay in the show. Yes, the cloning was just ... out of touch with reality.

Nope, no one will admit to any responsibility for killing Carson. Nor will they say who was responsible. I've never seen anything like this. One reason why it's so hard to get the truth is because fans got wind that Carson would be killed off long before we got confirmation, so tempers were high long before Sunday aired. As a result, those responsible/involved closed ranks and tried to stay out of the line of fire. Like I said in the past, it's as if the character Carson just killed himself and then forced the poor PTW to deal with the fall out.

For me, the realization came definitely when I started to hate certain characters, which I liked or loved at the beginning.

Yep, hating/disliking characters that TPTW expected us to like/love is the result of bad writing.

Yes, those two examples were really astounding scenes and certainly nails for the coffin of SGA, at least for me.

Those were the kind of scenes that made me a permanent fixture in the old Anti-Season 5 thread. Although I'd always been critical of the writing for SGA, before Season 5, there was more good than bad, but with Season 5... yeeech! So much fail in that season.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up for me. They had so many great characters but were incapable of doing anything with them after their creation. I think if they had some sort of supervision, which would have forced the writers to take responsibility for their writing, things could have been so much better. Because obviously they were able to create interesting characters or situations but lacked the discipline to develop them properly. This is hard work of course and it seemed that TPTB were, like you said, only interested in the fun part of writing.

Yes, they created interesting characters and then lost interest in them when they found them too hard to write. Or not fun to write. Paul Mullie admitted that they found Teyla and Ronon the hardest characters to write. They've had this problem for years and not just with SGA. I don't know if you've watched much of SG-1 yet, but that same lazy writing style was in play in the latter years of that show too. Like SGA, with SG-1 you could immediately tell which characters the writers found fun and easy to write and which ones they struggled with.

They are working together on which project? Great, finally one of the writers got it, at least SGA was good for something.

They're working on the Transporter series, which is based on the movies. When Mallozzi got the job he even commented that it's the type of fast moving action adventure storytelling that he loves, which made me laugh out loud after 2 years of watching him vigorously defend drama over action/adventure.

[Skie]

Nope, no one will admit to any responsibility for killing Carson. Nor will they say who was responsible. I've never seen anything like this. As a result, those responsible/involved closed ranks and tried to stay out of the line of fire.

BUT THIS IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! I'm just ... baffled. This is their story, their writing, how can no one take responsibility for it. This is just proof that what you wrote earlier "that the writers were vindictive and had become so complacent, so secure in their positions that they felt they could indulge their whims without suffering any consequences", just hit the mark. They thought they could write whatever they wanted without consequences but IF the need arose for it they just chickened out. I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE THAT. Wow, I have never seen something like that before either. How can anyone hire them for other tv series, I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T!

Those were the kind of scenes that made me a permanent fixture in the old Anti-Season 5 thread. Although I'd always been critical of the writing for SGA, before Season 5, there was more good than bad, but with Season 5... yeeech! So much fail in that season.

I concur. S4 had some good episode and of course Todd. The funny thing is, Todd showed a lot more honor then Atlantis. I always wondered if that was on purpose or if TPTB just didn't realize what impressions the reactions of Atlantis left on the viewer. Or maybe they perceived it a lot later and that is why in KINDRED Todd already gets some bad traits (him stealing info, so Shep is allowed to say that it is unfortunate they didn't came to kill him off at their second meeting). If TPTB wanted us to hate our characters for their deeds they certainly achieved that several times, like in the ep MISBEGOTTEN. And S5 is just bad, no conept, totally inconsistent. Just take Todd as an example, in Queen he is a bit the bad guy, in FC he was the betrayed guy, in TLT the bad guy again, in Infection the good guy (he used the treatment) and in EATG back to the bad guy.

I don't know if you've watched much of SG-1 yet, but that same lazy writing style was in play in the latter years of that show too. Like SGA, with SG-1 you could immediately tell which characters the writers found fun and easy to write and which ones they struggled with.

No, I watched at the beginning and then lost interest. With SGA, I saw SIEGE 1 first and that got me interested and the characters of S1 certainly got me hooked. But especially after S3 I watched for character interactions and because I still hoped SGA would go back to the roots. If SGA wouldn't have been so great in the beginning I wouldn't care about its downfall. But that's my problem, I loved SGA and this is also the reason for joining this forum as at least here, I can share my frustration with fellow victims. A problem shared is a problem halved.

When Mallozzi got the job he even commented that it's the type of fast moving action adventure storytelling that he loves, which made me laugh out loud after 2 years of watching him vigorously defend drama over action/adventure.

How could he ever get a job again as a writer I wonder. He contradicts himself a lot it seems.


BTW: The lack of a series bible was also shown clearly by having to double (not always for the better) characters or just rewriting the storyline:
- GUP: Someone in this forum said that originally they wanted to take Lt. Cadman for the pilot who died.
- ALLIES: Connor Trinneer was not available
- BAMSR: CH was not available
- TLT: Jill Wagner was not available (again someone in this forum stated this)

They probably decided newly every week how the story will progress.

[Snowman37]

They probably decided newly every week how the story will progress.

That's kind'a how the business works.

[Skie]

That's kind'a how the business works.

I would say it depends a lot on the writer. For example for Babylon 5 JMS had the backbone of the story pretty much written at the beginning of the series. He even had trapdoors for all the main and second characters if someone would leave.

[Skie]

Nope, no one will admit to any responsibility for killing Carson. Nor will they say who was responsible. I've never seen anything like this. ... Like I said in the past, it's as if the character Carson just killed himself and then forced the poor PTW to deal with the fall out.

Just a little addition. You probably hit the nail on the head with that last comment. The reason why no one takes responsibility might truly be the fact that there was never a real reason to kill Carson off. A writer stands by what he writes if he needs this for story/character development. But TPTB seemed to think they could easily sacrifice a minor character to get some drama or to shake things up. And this just shows how out of touch they were with the audience as you mentioned before. Someone in this forum mentioned that it would have made a lot more sense if Carson would have been killed in VENGEANCE by Michael. I'm sure people would have accepted Carson's death a lot more for this reason than because of a stupid exploding tumor. And it doesn't render the story better if the characters find exploding tumors ridiculous. That's just a pathetic attempt on the writers behalf to get the story working. So in short would the writers have put some thoughts on why the death of Carson is needed and had a decent explanation for the fans, I'm sure we would know now who was responsible for the writing and it even wouldn't be such a big issue.

[maxbo]

BUT THIS IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! I'm just ... baffled. This is their story, their writing, how can no one take responsibility for it. This is just proof that what you wrote earlier "that the writers were vindictive and had become so complacent, so secure in their positions that they felt they could indulge their whims without suffering any consequences", just hit the mark. They thought they could write whatever they wanted without consequences but IF the need arose for it they just chickened out. I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE THAT. Wow, I have never seen something like that before either. How can anyone hire them for other tv series, I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T!

Yes, it is ridiculous to realize just how complacent the writers had become. They had become so confident their job security that they wrote what they wanted with no regard to the characters or the series. And, to add insult to injury, they were openly defiant about doing so. Mallozzi has mentioned more than once that they, the writers, wrote what they wanted and not what they thought the viewers wanted. No matter how successful a franchise, that kind of attitude hurts it in the long run.

I concur. S4 had some good episode and of course Todd. The funny thing is, Todd showed a lot more honor then Atlantis. I always wondered if that was on purpose or if TPTB just didn't realize what impressions the reactions of Atlantis left on the viewer. Or maybe they perceived it a lot later and that is why in KINDRED Todd already gets some bad traits (him stealing info, so Shep is allowed to say that it is unfortunate they didn't came to kill him off at their second meeting). If TPTB wanted us to hate our characters for their deeds they certainly achieved that several times, like in the ep MISBEGOTTEN. And S5 is just bad, no conept, totally inconsistent. Just take Todd as an example, in Queen he is a bit the bad guy, in FC he was the betrayed guy, in TLT the bad guy again, in Infection the good guy (he used the treatment) and in EATG back to the bad guy.

Todd suffered what most of the characters suffered, a lack of planning for the character. A lack of fleshing out who they wanted the character to be. Todd was a complex character and in the hands of better writers, his complexity could have been displayed without it looking scattered and inconsistent. For instance, I'm now watching Game of Thrones and it's full of characters that are not good or bad. In only 3 episodes, they've fleshed out characters better than SG's writers ever did, because the GofT writers are working from the GofT books, so they have a lot of background to work with.

That type of background detail is what was missing with SGA and the show and the characters suffered for it.

No, I watched at the beginning and then lost interest. With SGA, I saw SIEGE 1 first and that got me interested and the characters of S1 certainly got me hooked. But especially after S3 I watched for character interactions and because I still hoped SGA would go back to the roots. If SGA wouldn't have been so great in the beginning I wouldn't care about its downfall. But that's my problem, I loved SGA and this is also the reason for joining this forum as at least here, I can share my frustration with fellow victims. A problem shared is a problem halved.

That's the source of my disappointment too - if the show hadn't been so good in Season 1, I wouldn't have been expecting more. Whenever I think about Season 1 and compare it to later seasons, it's all too clear that the writers didn't have a plan beyond that first season. Because of this, SGA never lived up to its vast potential and that irritates me.

There were so many things set up in Season 1 that I was expecting to see fleshed out in later seasons. For instance, S1 made big deal about how strong Sheppard's Ancient gene was, but nothing ever came of this. Looking back, the first sign that they were going to abandon this was at the end of S1 when they had perfected the synthetic ancient gene. I remember have a *WTF* reaction to that because it was too soon, but then thinking that perhaps the writers were still planning to make Sheppard's Ancient gene distinct somehow. Unfortunately, I was wrong because the synthetic gene worked as well as Sheppard's unusually powerful natural Ancient gene. How disappointing.

Another disappointment was the way they didn't flesh out Teyla's Wraith DNA storyline. I remember Carson implying that she was stronger than usual and in the Rising two-parter, she was clearly faster than Sheppard, who couldn't have been a slouch himself. Unfortunately, after S1 it was almost like these scenes never happened. Oh, and I can't forget how they totally screwed up Teyla's father's name because in Season 1 she introduced herself as being the daughter of Tagan, but in Season 5 the writers said her father's name was Torren. Some fanfic writers tried to fix TPTW's mess by having Tagan be either Teyla's mother's name of having Tagan be just one of Teyla's father's names. Unfortunately, these explanations don't work for the show because TPTW never provided any support for them. That kind of lazy, sloppy writing is unforgivable, but sadly too common with SGA's writers.

They also did something similar to the Wraith where in S1 they were this terrifyingly formidable, hard to kill enemy, but by Season 4 they were so weakened that even a wimp like Keller was able to kill one without a gun and fight off another with just a stick. Those scenes contained so much stupid that I'm still shaking my head with the foolishness of it all.

Those were just a few of the many things that irritated me as the seasons went on. All of the main characters had things of interest that I was hoping to see fleshed out later and was disappointed to see either dropped or poorly handled.

How could he ever get a job again as a writer I wonder. He contradicts himself a lot it seems.

Unfortunately, he has the kind of attitude that will ensure that he's always employed because he not shy about playing up to his bosses and being whatever they want him to be. For instance, on his blog he mentioned that he doesn't mind being the bad guy in terms of PR, which must have come in handy any time BW and RCC wanted to try to deflect blame for their unpopular decisions. The fact that RCC hired him and his writing partner for RCC's new series is proof that JM's tactics work for him.

BTW: The lack of a series bible was also shown clearly by having to double (not always for the better) characters or just rewriting the storyline:
- GUP: Someone in this forum said that originally they wanted to take Lt. Cadman for the pilot who died.
- ALLIES: Connor Trinneer was not available
- BAMSR: CH was not available
- TLT: Jill Wagner was not available (again someone in this forum stated this)

They probably decided newly every week how the story will progress.

According to them, that's exactly what they did. JM stated this in his blog more than once and there are interviews from BW and RCC confirming this. In fact, in RCC's last video interview, which is linked somewhere on this board, he flat out called "B--- S---" to any writer who claimed that he/she had a show bible. Apparently, because he didn't work with a series bible, he didn't believe such a thing was possible - at the time. I say at the time because now that he's working on his new show, he's insisting on a series bible. I don't know if that means that he's learned his lesson or if the show's financial backers insisted on seeing a long-term plan for the show. All I know is that JM was complaining about having to write one for the show at RCC's request. Interesting.

That's kind'a how the business works.

I would say it depends a lot on the writer. For example for Babylon 5 JMS had the backbone of the story pretty much written at the beginning of the series. He even had trapdoors for all the main and second characters if someone would leave.

Yes, it does depend on the writer. The better ones either have a fully fleshed out series bible from the beginning or they have a rough outline of the series and the characters and then build on them in a way that stays true to both.

On the other hand, writers like TPTW just did whatever they felt like doing at the time and then chastised the fans who called them on their inconsistencies.

Just a little addition. You probably hit the nail on the head with that last comment. The reason why no one takes responsibility might truly be the fact that there was never a real reason to kill Carson off. A writer stands by what he writes if he needs this for story/character development. But TPTB seemed to think they could easily sacrifice a minor character to get some drama or to shake things up. And this just shows how out of touch they were with the audience as you mentioned before. Someone in this forum mentioned that it would have made a lot more sense if Carson would have been killed in VENGEANCE by Michael. I'm sure people would have accepted Carson's death a lot more for this reason than because of a stupid exploding tumor. And it doesn't render the story better if the characters find exploding tumors ridiculous. That's just a pathetic attempt on the writers behalf to get the story working. So in short would the writers have put some thoughts on why the death of Carson is needed and had a decent explanation for the fans, I'm sure we would know now who was responsible for the writing and it even wouldn't be such a big issue.

Exactly. As you said a writer would stand by his decision if it was made for storyline reasons. Unfortunately, killing Carson wasn't made for storyline reasons, so they didn't have a defense when things got ugly and fans demanded a reason. This follows the same pattern of all their main character deaths. They didn't get rid of those characters to further the overall storyline, they got rid of them because they didn't want to write for them anymore and that showed. That's why so many were disgusted with the deaths. Sure, fans of those characters would have been upset about the loss of their favorites, but if the characters' deaths had been used in a meaningful way then some of that displeasure could have been eliminated or at least lessened.

[Skie]

Mallozzi has mentioned more than once that they, the writers, wrote what they wanted and not what they thought the viewers wanted. No matter how successful a franchise, that kind of attitude hurts it in the long run.

Well, I wouldn't mind writing what they wanted if an outline was behind that writing. But without it the best you can probably do IS listening to reasonable requests from viewers, if you want a successful franchise that is.

For instance, I'm now watching Game of Thrones and it's full of characters that are not good or bad. In only 3 episodes, they've fleshed out characters better than SG's writers ever did, because the GofT writers are working from the GofT books, so they have a lot of background to work with. That type of background detail is what was missing with SGA and the show and the characters suffered for it.

To be a little fair on the TPTB, it's easier for the GOfT writers as they already have the background. Of course you can still mess it up, so the GofT writers seem to do a decent job. BUT it is a very good example for showing the value of a series and character bible.
OT: Just checked it on IMDB, looks very promising. Are the books worth buying?

There were so many things set up in Season 1 that I was expecting to see fleshed out in later seasons. For instance, S1 made big deal about how strong Sheppard's Ancient gene was, but nothing ever came of this.
Another disappointment was the way they didn't flesh out Teyla's Wraith DNA storyline.
Some fanfic writers tried to fix TPTW's mess by having Tagan be either Teyla's mother's name of having Tagan be just one of Teyla's father's names. Unfortunately, these explanations don't work for the show because TPTW never provided any support for them. That kind of lazy, sloppy writing is unforgivable, but sadly too common with SGA's writers.
They also did something similar to the Wraith where in S1 they were this terrifyingly formidable, hard to kill enemy, but by Season 4 they were so weakened that even a wimp like Keller was able to kill one without a gun and fight off another with just a stick.

Ah yes, the convenient gene therapy. If they had only done a bit of research it might have turned out better (not to mention to get rid of this utterly unbelievable retrovirus story line). True, gene therapy exists but it is not nearly so successful. Not to mention the fact that MAYBE the Ancients did some precautionary measures ... I would have found it a lot more convincing if only say 10% of the gene therapy receivers actually got the gene expressed and even than their abilities would be way behind natural gene carriers. For example they could only activate less important system or not control systems well enough.

Teyla is a said example of a wasted character. Especially in S4 (SOW) and S5 (Queen) they just brought her Wraith DNA into the episode to get things working. For me it was just ridiculous how her telepathic talents just went up some levels compared to what we saw before (and NO her baby, 3 month fetus BTW, helping her does not convince me). Sadly it showed already in SIEGE 3, where she just hooks into the telepathic network to relay her message WITHOUT any consequences.

Matriarchal societies do exist but it gives TPTB way too much credit, same goes for several names for her father. Wouldn't she need to explain this to Sheppard, he doesn't know that.

The famous stick fight ... Even if Keller was just defending, there is now way how this would work. Just look at how difficult it was for Teyla in SUSPICION and aren't the wraith a BIT stronger than humans anyway.

PTW is also an example of a forgotten storyline. They just reviewed it to have Michael be the bad guy again. What also bothered me, wouldn't the wraith at least take the research? Hey, they are smart, maybe the Hoffan already spread this drug and a cure would be, well nice.

About wasted character development, Ford comes into my mind. Especially as it is mentioned that he had previous gate experiences, would have been nice to see some background on this.

The fact that RCC hired him and his writing partner for RCC's new series is proof that JM's tactics work for him.

That also says a lot about the people hiring JM. Shouldn't it be the other way around. TPTB gladly discussion with fans their writing intentions ... and not hiding behind a hired scapegoat.

In fact, in RCC's last video interview, which is linked somewhere on this board, he flat out called "B--- S---" to any writer who claimed that he/she had a show bible. All I know is that JM was complaining about having to write one for the show at RCC's request. Interesting.

And now he is B--S-- himself or what? I wonder what changed RCC's mind.

On the other hand, writers like TPTW just did whatever they felt like doing at the time and then chastised the fans who called them on their inconsistencies.

Especially amazing if you think that it never crossed their mind that fans pay attention to details, otherwise they wouldn't be fans.

[kmiller1610]

Read the whole thread and found nothing about how and when the actors reacted to the cancellation. Nothing in the DVD extras either.

Anyone have a lead on that type of information?

I think I agree that SGA was canceled because of writer boredom. The show had established a formula the writers could not escape.

Personally, I enjoyed the show, all of it. But compared to SG-1, it was a bit cartoonish.