Why Stargate: Atlantis is cooler than Battlestar Galactica...

[SylvreWolfe]

I find this thread to be more entertaining, with more story line and plot than all the seasons of Moore's BSG combined.

[Phantom Limb]

Uh... Fact?! Really?! I'm pretty sure those are classified as "opinions". "Facts" can be proven...

is Edward James Olmos a better actor than Joe Flanigan?

(hint:that is a rhetorical question)

Something you apparently can't do, judging by what you said before.

see above

Carson was killed off because the network told them to "shake things up a bit".

and that was their solution........... think on that

[Mister Oragahn]

is Edward James Olmos a better actor than Joe Flanigan?

(hint:that is a rhetorical question)

Actually, the question is not who between both of them is a better actor, but who's actually given a good character (though I consider that Olmos has a natural charisma, Flanigan doesn't).

[sg8man]

s
BSG has, better actors, better writers, better characters, better plots.
these points are fact, simply cannot be refuted and anyone that does is just doing so for the sake of arguement.

............... (SG8MAN: some time later)

..umm seperating personal opinion from fact is important here.

Oooh boy, you set yourself up for that one . . .

I find this thread to be more entertaining, with more story line and plot than all the seasons of Moore's BSG combined.

lol and /signed

[Phantom Limb]

Actually, the question is not who between both of them is a better actor, but who's actually given a good character (though I consider that Olmos has a natural charisma, Flanigan doesn't).

yeah agree there, that is probably a slightly unfair comparison to, haha what with olmos having decades of experience on flanigan (i dont mean the little known spin off from gilligans island......flanigans island, i mean the afore mentioned actor) but you see what im getting at, perhaps a more apt comparison would be James Callis or Joseph (the hair) Flanigan.
but again thats a pretty rhetorical question.
a good character/script does make the world of difference for an actors performance it would be interesting to see him on galactica, see if he can actually act well or really does have a lack of charisma worthy of chris o'donnel himself.

Oooh boy, you set yourself up for that one . . .

dude i know, i know...was thinking of putting some disclaimer after that last paragraph about the irony of going on about personal opinions vs fact after having a little rant about galactica's greatness but i didnt for length reasons to be honest. (thought i went on long enough! plus i had to take my cylon voice changer helmet off and go polish my home made models of the viper mark 2 and number six)

i do believe any person that can view this stuff purely on a performance, story and script level would agree with me there though, because i do actually believe that, those are facts, i mean ...come on just compare them in your brain box, you know it to be true i tells ya!!

[jenks]

BSG has, better actors, better writers, better characters, better plots.
these points are fact, simply cannot be refuted and anyone that does is just doing so for the sake of arguement.

And they still manage to create an inferior product? It must take a special kind on incompetence to accomplish that. What seems to have eluded you is the fact that it's all about entertainment, you can group together the best actors in the world coupled with the best CG and everything, but if all you come up with is a dull, boring show that's not entertaining, then you've failed. While I'd agree that BSG has better special effects, and even better actors overall, the plots and storyline are dire, and some of the most recent episodes along with razor have been a real task to watch. I've only really watched them out of curiosity as the first two seasons were so good, but lately by time I'm half way through I'm really just waiting for it to end...

[Phantom Limb]

And they still manage to create an inferior product? It must take a special kind on incompetence to accomplish that. What seems to have eluded you is the fact that it's all about entertainment, you can group together the best actors in the world coupled with the best CG and everything, but if all you come up with is a dull, boring show that's not entertaining, then you've failed. While I'd agree that BSG has better special effects, and even better actors overall, the plots and storyline are dire, and some of the most recent episodes along with razor have been a real task to watch. I've only really watched them out of curiosity as the first two seasons were so good, but lately by time I'm half way through I'm really just waiting for it to end...

hold on there a second if you will, you say tis inferior but then you say the first two seasons were ace, so whats that going on there?
that makes about as much sense as orlando blooms career.

why do you think they are so dire storywise? i have always found it interesting, i guess it depends on whether you are a fan of large somewhat meandering story arcs and such but ive never found anything to be a task to watch (except born on the fourth of july actually, really good film but i am never sitting through that experience again)

[sg8man]

i do believe any person that can view this stuff purely on a performance, story and script level would agree with me there though, because i do actually believe that, those are facts, i mean ...come on just compare them in your brain box, you know it to be true i tells ya!!

Perhaps BSG does have better scripts, actors, etc etc. In many ways it is a more serious, higher quality show. You are correct.

But it doesn't matter. Stargate is still by far, the greatest show ever.
Expressed mathematically,
Stargate > BSG ^ bazillion

[jenks]

hold on there a second if you will, you say tis inferior but then you say the first two seasons were ace, so whats that going on there?
that makes about as much sense as orlando blooms career.

Not really. Obviously I though the first two were brilliant, but since then it's been poor, and getting worse.

[Phantom Limb]

But it doesn't matter. Stargate is still by far, the greatest show ever.
Expressed mathematically,
Stargate > BSG ^ bazillion

damn expressing things mathematically....my one (and only!!)weakness!!......must argue.....for no .....reason....but cant!!!

fair enough, haha.
cant argue with that, but for the record i think neither stargate or BSG is the greatest show ever not that, that makes the slightest bit of difference to anything (although i hear that the moon and kevin smith are powered by the opinions of geeks)
what the hell was this thread about again? sorry ive just realised the whole point of the thread.
ahem.... in short, no.
BSG has its story and its going to come to a natural, tight and pert conclusion which is good, let atlantis flounder in tv oblivion until the great telescreen beast zozmodion rises from the ashes and slays all programmes which cannot withstand attacks from its mighty claws (i dont care how many ancient drones they have zozmodion will not be denied!).
i believe thats how it works i read it in a book.
im unsure as to how you can say stargate is the greatest tv programme ever, you see something in it i sure as hell never will!



the answer was star trek by the way (damn i have inadvertantly powered kevin smith enough to write another movie!....noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo)

[SGFerrit]

so what constitutes character development in your book? the whole starbuck drinking herself to oblivion and wanting to "root" with anything that moves (hehe how did that term come about by the way? ive always wondered...well not always but you know what i mean!) was all about her self destructive nature i.e. her character and the developing of it, her fall from hot shot pilot to being a complete loss.

i think galactica doesnt skimp on the cylon battle action at all, often times the battles are actually poignant to whats been going on with the characters and work on more than one level, such as apollo watching the destruction of the resurrection ship and that being the moment he chooses to let go and die.
i will say galactica can be melodramatic at times without doubt but i would then continue on to say (as i often do ) that just because we have human conflict moments that deal with sex and drinking doesnt automatically make it soapish.

yeah. razor.....i agree with most of that, problem was that anything that wasnt a flashback was setup for series 4 which renders the "film" pretty plotless, i have to keep reminding myself that its marketed as a direct to DVD film and if you view it as such it fails...they should have looked at the new futurama movie or even that B5 dvd that came out get an idea of what direct to dvd film really means!
as part of series 4, i wouldnt have had a problem with it but no way was this strong enough for a stand alone release...shame, because it did have good moments.

i find that i can enjoy Atlantis but it is an inferior programme when compared to BSG it just is, hell its an inferior programme when compared to the equivalent season of sg1.
honestly i watch both, enjoy both on different levels but in comparison there is no competition.
BSG has, better actors, better writers, better characters, better plots.
these points are fact, simply cannot be refuted and anyone that does is just doing so for the sake of arguement.
so it has those things but do they add up to a great show?...well yeah of course they do but personal preference means some will naturally prefer atlantis which is fine....saying its in fact a better show than BSG?..umm seperating personal opinion from fact is important here.

stargate had the mythology but Atlantis doesnt, in truth it hasnt got a whole lot going for it, as i said before its just there and no one knows why anymore it just carries on regardless like smallville.
how can the staunch defenders of atlantis not see that the fact the doctor was killed off because the writers couldnt come up with more for his character to do is an indication of a poorly realised show and untalented (or uninterested) writers, not to mention the introduction of the T-1000's. so bloody lazy, boggles the mind.

and its BSG thats infinitely better...just to clear that up

LOL. You seem to actually believe that your opinions are facts that should be accepted by everyone else. Umm, no, Sorry. Doesn't work like that. You aren't going to change people's minds by saying 'this simply cannot be refuted and anyone that does is just doing so for the sake of arguement', it just isn't going to make people believe you more. It just makes you look like a bit of a... well, you know... I'm not meaning that in a nasty way, but when people blatantly state 'my opinion is fact, yours is wrong!' it makes them look very arrogant and ignorant.

It's funny, I am the exact opposite of you! I enjoy both shows, but find Atlantis is superior. That opinion isn't a fact. But shock! Horror! Neither is yours. Sorry, but someone had to break it to you

[Phantom Limb]

LOL. You seem to actually believe that your opinions are facts that should be accepted by everyone else. Umm, no. Sorry. Doesn't work like that. You aren't going to change people's minds by saying 'this simply cannot be refuted and anyone that does is just doing so for the sake of arguement' isn't going to make people believe you more. It just makes you look like a bit of a... you know tbh... I'm not meaning that in a nasty way, but when people blatantly state 'my opinion is fact, yours is wrong!' it makes them look very arrogant and ignorant.

It's funny, I am the exact opposite of you! I enjoy both shows, but find Atlantis is superior. That opinion isn't a fact. But shock! Horror! Neither is yours. Sorry, but someone had to break it to you

wow i did write alot there didnt i?
ive been through all of this on the above posts give em a read they're super entertaining and educational.

are you saying you are the bizarro me by the way?

[s09119]

See bold:

And yet despite some of this variety (you forgot the Tok'ra who are the same species and prove they're not all bad) they were described as "genetically evil" and it was strongly implied if not outraight said at some point that if a way could be found to wipe them out completely (genocide) without harming their hosts that would be the ideal way to defeat them.

Well the Goa'uld WERE genetically evil. The entire history and ideas of an evil species in your head at birth can do that to ya...

The problem is not that they don't do episodes that show that these various powers do have more complexity than just "grar evil". The problem is that the lessons supposedly learned in those episodes don't seem to stick around very long at all after those episodes have aired.

Yes they do. Have you not watched SG-1 through all ten seasons? They learn things that help in future episodes a lot.

But he got wiped out, along with the rest of his species/race whatever you want to call them by the typical "ancient super weapon" cliche.

Actually, he was killed by RepliCarter via an Asgard Disruptor. And the use of the Dakara weapon was the first ever Stargate "ancient super weapon" use, so you can't really use that here.

There have been a couple of episodes that have shown that Wraith are not inherently evil as a species (as if such a ludicrous concept even needed to be clairified in the first place), and yet they still push wiping them all out with the retrovirus, the replicators or new method X as the ideal/only means of defeating them.

The Wraith want to feed on humanity. While I believe some could be redeemed, the majority will and always will be our enemy; they need to kill us to survive, so we can never coexist peacefully unless an alternative food source is found.

It's the same thing I talked about before. They'll do an episode that's supposed to show us the wraith are a lot more like humans and not just monsters, like Instinct, Michael, Common ground etc, but it's like the characters don't actually learn anything from their experiences in those episodes.

They learned to trust these specific Wraith and see promise in them, but the majority of their kind show no sign of changing their ways. THAT much, at least, has been canonized by their repeated attempts to destroy Atlantis.

If you encountered Ellia and the common ground Wraith and saw just how human they really were, with emotions, intelligence and dreams just like yours, could you still convince yourself that killing them and every other being like them in the entire universe was the only way to defeat them as a nation/power in a war. What about abducting their scientists from their homes and torturing them with medical experiments aimed at furthering the effective genocide of their species? The only people who think things like this are acceptable, even in a war, are the sort that fill out the ranks of history's greatest monsters.

Again, if two species can never coexist (and at the moment it looks that way) due to a fundamental issue with one of them, it's simple logic that only one can survive. We, as humans, will always try to be the one that comes out on top, so of course we'll try and wipe out the Wraith before they can wipe us out.

In the episode "first strike" they moaned about the fact that the nuclear attack they were going to launch against the Asuran homeworld would be insufficient to wipe them out completely. Then even tried to talk about how they might not be able to this time but would "get the rest of them someday" or something like that with some new weapon they were cooking up.

It's almost hilarious.

It's the same thing every time with this show. The ultimate goal of any war must always be to wipe out the other side in a genocide. Unless they're human or humanish like the Jaffa or Ori followes of course, then its unthinkable and not even so much as wispered about. It's like the show ends up telling you, unintentionally but the end message is the same, that alien lives only have value if they're "friendly aliens". You can freely genocide hostile aliens though, if you have the capability, but you can't genocide hostile human factions because, oh my god! That's genocide!

The Asurans have a program that gives them extreme agression toward any they percieve are a threat. We, being the most advanced group of humans they've ever met, and the direct descendents of the Lanteans, fit that bill.

The Asurans, like the Replicators before them, cannot be negotiated with, cannot be convinced not to hate us. It's programmed into them, and unless we can reprogram them not to hate us, they will never stop their attacks. In their current form, we cannot coexist, and thus the only logical option left to us is to destroy them.

Right from the time the Ori first started to become agressive they set out on a hunt for a means to genocide them all (the actual Ori, not the followers, who are humans and thus ungenocidable).

Okay, let's suppose you and your family were under attack from giant, evil, sentient bugs that wanted to eat you. They've already proven themselves more powerful and intelligent than you, and their shells are too thick for guns or knives to hurt them. What, in order to save your family, would you do, given that these bugs believe you inferior and will never accept you as an equal worthy of life?

Let me answer for you; YOU WOULD KILL THEM TO SAVE THE ONES YOU LOVE. Simple and undeniable.

Like I said it's really kinda hilarious when you stop and take notice of just how often this whole "genocide for the win" thing goes on.

I blame the writing like I said above. They're willing to do episodes that show these various powers as not composed of nothing but hordes of unflinching evil monsters but then they don't want to write around the lessons learned in those episodes later; so they go right back to assuming any hostile alien species is a bunch of roaches aching for a good extermination courtesy of humanity's heroes.

On top of it they're so lacking in imagination and ignorant of the moral consequences of having a bunch of people sit around in a room and talk about wiping out an entire sentient species that they'll do it over and over again with every new alien threat. I should clairfy that I really don't think they're even aware of the moral implications of the various genocidal plots they've had their characters hatch out for us. I don't think they put this stuff in because they've got some sort of nefarious plan to intentionally try to push genocide as the best means to resolve a war. I believe they either don't see the significance of it or simply don't care to think about it much. "Stop taking it so seriously" they might say "just have fun". To that I would say "write better". It's not like doing a show where your heroes don't obliviously push for genocide every week is very hard. You'd probably come up with better stories automatically just by forcing yourself to think your way around the whole genocide issue, even let the characters work through it onscreen. Seeing them argue their views on something like this would reveal more about their characters, values and beleifs much more naturally and quickly than any dedicated background episode.

It's not just silly and somewhat offensive to have this kind of behaviour being advocated so regularly by the supposed "good guys" in the show though, it's also just plain boring, and in show terms that the worst part. I mean real wars aren't like some videogame where you win when all the little guys shooting at you are dead. They've got all sorts of layers of political complexity and intrigue and all that awesome stuff. You've got surrenders, coups, secret talks, internal power struggles, insane leaders, national morale, conflicting goals of nations, alliances, betrayals, rebellions, spys and god knows what else that could factor into how a war might be decided in some way other than "we just have to kill 'em all, then we'll be the winners".

By going for this easy out "got to kill 'em all" approach everytime they're cheating themselves out of so much potential story it's really staggering. That's what upsets me the most about it all I think. All the potential being wasted in this overly simplistic approach that gets repeated time and time again.

The rest of this is more or less repetition, so I didn't bother re-writing what I've said.

[Agent_Dark]

[Briangate78]

So the highly anticipated, promoted till our eyes bleed Razor got a 1.2 for Ratings.

SGA pulled that for their premiere, and will likely do even better with the next few eps as SGA goes into it's Mid-season.

Well I liked Razor a lot, but the way they promoted it, should of gotten them a 1.5 at least.