Dark sides of Dex & Teyla (SPOILERS for Runner & beyond)

[ShadowMaat]

Since this seems to be becoming a bit of a hot issue in the Trinity discussion thread, I figured I'd try moving it here and see if it took root.

Allegations have been made that Dex is a drunken, abusive monster and that Teyla exhibits classic signs of being a battered woman. Personally, I can't see it at all and have a little trouble wrapping my mind around how anyone could think such a thing, but if you take everything out of context and look at the bare essentials of what's happened... I dunno, I still have trouble seeing it. But it still makes for a rather interesting discussion and I figure it warrants its own thread.

I don't mind that many people dont agree with me. It makes for good discussion. But to imply that none of the signs are there is what's laughable. I named no less than 5 things that would normally be huge red flags. These weren't interpretations, in fact, many were plot points. Lets go through them, and if something isnt true, then please correct me.

1. Ronon bound Teyla against her will. That happened. Can't get around it.
2. He kidnapped her/held her hostage. Did I misinterpret that part in 'Runner'?
3. He hit her using a cheap shot during training. Thats a bs move no matter what galaxy you're from. Sheppard called him on it immediately but Teyla 'let it go' him.
4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.
5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Which of those things didn't happen? I'm actually sugar coating his actions.

Now, if you knew a woman who was hanging out out with a guy that did those things to her, would you sit back and say, they make a cute couple or they have 'chemistry'?

What I don't get...what really puzzles me, Is why so many viewers are cutting Ronon so much slack? Is it because he's a hunk? Is it because TPTB say he's a good guy? or are they the ones projecting and seeing stuff that hasnt been shown on screen?

SG:A is a tv show. A good one, too. And I don't see any reason to overlook what happens on screen because it doesn't jibe with what some people want to see.

For what it's worth, I'm not cutting Ronon slack because he's a "hunk" or because TPTB tell me he's a good guy. I simply don't interpret his behavior as being rooted in the sort of foulness that you see. My interpretation of the character is based on him being a bit of a warrior-rogue, not on him being an amoral SOB who likes to beat up women.

I had a long, wonderful post all about it, but the bloody forum ate it and I really don't feel like going into it all again. *sigh* Maybe another time. Point is, I don't think Dex is evil. I don't think his actions are evil. I don't think that his motivations are evil. He seems very human to me and for every one of his actions, I can think of examples here on Earth, none of which involve people being violently abusive.

Anyone else care to comment?

[salamander7]

interesting! I was thinking about the latest episode today (best so far) and considering how Teyla's sympathies towards Ronon's rough 'frontier justice' way of doing things could put them both into bad positions with Sheppard and the rest of the Earth people. I liked that Teyla and Ronon's values were put on the same level as the Earth values... it gets tiring to hear about how morally superior we must be compared to everyone else in the universe.

as for Teyla being an abused woman... the signs listed definitely apply, but I think it's more complex than that. both of their peoples have been nearly wiped out, and she understands Ronon's actions. she even said she'd probably have done the same thing as Ronon in Trinity. she was certainly furious that Ronon used her, but her sympathies are being divided, and so she's not being as strong a personality as normal. I don't think Ronon is evil or bad, just conditioned to react swiftly and without mercy. I definitely think he'll clash with Sheppard, and especially Weir... but that makes for great stories. they did introduce him as the ferocious lion grudgingly accepting help, after all.

[Hatcheter]

Frontier Justice! That's the way to describe the situation. Heh, I hadn't thought of the Pegasus Galaxy as the Wild West before, but it might be an apt comparison.

As for the initial topic, it was just one nitwit raising a stink in the episode discussion thread. I don't think there's any really merit to the idea.

[ShadowMaat]

Oh, I have no doubt that their "different" way of looking at things has a lot of potential to cause trouble with their Earther friends and I hope that TPTB manage to create some believeable tension from it.

I'm still kinda intrigued by this "battered woman" thing, though. One lone fan campaigning against everyone else- including all of us, the show, its creators, and the relevant actors... it's interesting. And regardless of how the rest of us may feel, it's obviously very real to Derrick. I'm curious as to why he's inclined to interpret the characters in such a harshly negative way. He's stated why he thinks Teyla is a "battered woman" and why he thinks Ronon is an "abuser", but for me, that isn't an easy leap to make. I don't go into a show looking for that sort of stuff and I'm not inclined to think in those terms and I wonder why Derrick is. It can't be "blatantly obvious" in the eps themselves or more people would have picked up on it.

Also, while I'm fairly confident that NO ONE involved on the show intended for the characters to be interpreted that way, it's still an interesting view to take. Atlantis may be darker than SG-1, but I don't think it's quite THAT dark. It would add all kinds of levels to the characters and the show, though. I wonder how it would affect the scheme of things.

[MasySyma]

I'm not sure I buy into the idea of Teyla as a battered woman.

The episode ended with her threatening Dex. If she had simply mumbled about not telling everyone at Atlantis without agreeing with Dex, or if she had made remarks about forgiving him, maybe, but this argument is too much of a stretch for me.

The argument also implies that Teyla and Dex have a relationship, possibly beyond friendship. The writers have not implied this; a few fans have.

I also find the claims a bit faulty for this argument.

1. He also bound Shep. If he is a batterer, he's not selective.
2. He would have held whomever came along hostage. McKay or Carson would have been used the same way.
3. This applies a cultural judgement of fighting onto a scene where both characters were fighting no holds barred. Teyla did not ask for Queensbury Rules. Shep was the one that became upset, and the writers have hinted at a possible ship between him and Teyla. He was the one being a bit possessive.
4. I don't follow you here. He's impatient and not skilled in diplomacy. I admit, I would not tell Daniel or Weir to try out this tactic. He thought he was helping Teyla and her people. Ok, he screwed up, but he was trying to be useful.
5. Ok. But again, based on the episode, he would have done all of that whether he was with Teyla or McKay.

I'm sorry but I see this line of arging having more to do with Teyla being a woman and a possible sense to protect her versus Teyla being battered.

I'm not entirely happy with Dex's character right now either. He has issues, but Teyla doesn't have bruises. Battering isn't Dex's issue.

[LORD MONK]

Oh please people. Calm on. As mintioned before Shep was tied up to. Dex shot that man because he sent thousands of his own people to die so he can survive. Tayla got bent because he used her friendship with the people to get close enough to shoot him. Wich she stated in a violent way. Dex gave a reason why and she excepted it as for she would have done the same thing. Then she stated not to use her friendshiplike that ever again for she will do the same to him.

I loved that ep. It made for great charecter build. It also made for a connection between Tayla and Dex. Both of their races are near extiction. I like the hole wild wild west theory.

For the hole battered woman thing. What the hell. Watch the ep again and don't think that way. It will make it more interesting.

[Lightsabre]

I don't thikn Teyla fits the description of a battered woman in any sense.
1)She and Dex are not together.
2)The one time Dex hits her is a cheap shot. However, his survival has depended on him not losing his concentration. It could be that instead of just beating up Teyla, he was trying to teach her a lesson???
3)Dex was being a hard-ass during the negotion, that doesn't make him an abuser.
4)Teyla ended 'Trinity' by putting knife to his throat. HArdly a battered woman.
5)Yes, he kidnapped Shep and Teyla. I think Runner has explained those events enough.
End of the day, Ronan was reduced to hte level of an animal and he still responds like one sometimes. He's getting better.

[Blue007]

I don't thikn Teyla fits the description of a battered woman in any sense.
1)She and Dex are not together.
2)The one time Dex hits her is a cheap shot. However, his survival has depended on him not losing his concentration. It could be that instead of just beating up Teyla, he was trying to teach her a lesson???
3)Dex was being a hard-ass during the negotion, that doesn't make him an abuser.
4)Teyla ended 'Trinity' by putting knife to his throat. HArdly a battered woman.
5)Yes, he kidnapped Shep and Teyla. I think Runner has explained those events enough.
End of the day, Ronan was reduced to hte level of an animal and he still responds like one sometimes. He's getting better.

Well said. I think it's too early for anyone to make any rash judgements on either Teyal or Dex at this point. There is still too much to be shown for each one. Too much background to go back into.

[Blue007]

Oh please people. Calm on. As mintioned before Shep was tied up to. Dex shot that man because he sent thousands of his own people to die so he can survive. Tayla got bent because he used her friendship with the people to get close enough to shoot him. Wich she stated in a violent way. Dex gave a reason why and she excepted it as for she would have done the same thing. Then she stated not to use her friendshiplike that ever again for she will do the same to him.

I loved that ep. It made for great charecter build. It also made for a connection between Tayla and Dex. Both of their races are near extiction. I like the hole wild wild west theory.

For the hole battered woman thing. What the hell. Watch the ep again and don't think that way. It will make it more interesting.

Another nicely stated view.

[LORD MONK]

I'd realy like to know how this hole battered woman comes into view.

[Easter Lily]

A battered, abused woman would hardly be able to fight back... but I'm sorry... I don't see it... not with Teyla... The woman is a warrior and whatever else I think about her character, she can hold her own in hand to hand combat.

In Duet, when Ronon gained the upperhand, it was only because she dropped her guard. As someone said, it could be that he was trying to put a point across about maintaining concentration. It's quite a common maneouvre that I've seen in martial arts films when the master is trying to teach his/her pupil to focus. Perhaps that could be called "abuse" but more often than not, it is talked about as being discipline.

I don't know where Derrick is coming from... past experience perhaps... and maybe I'm just a tad complacent... but I've watched martial arts films my whole life, watching men and women going head to head, trashing one another into a bloody pulp. When two people fight as equals, they should be treated as equals and take what comes. That's what Teyla did.

Ronon undermined whatever trust he had established with Teyla in Trinity but so did Rodney in his interaction with Sheppard and Weir... Would we call that battering? Abuse... perhaps... abuse of friendship and trust... but physical and mental abuse?... that's stretching it beyond the realms of possibility.
Ronon also tied up Sheppard in a hostage situation... but I don't see him talked of as an abuse victim. Is it because Teyla is a woman that this has come up? Doesn't that become a kind of sexism?

As far as I'm concerned, all these people are in a war situation... they are military... they are trained soldiers... If one member of this equation is in a "weaker", disadvantaged position, then I might actually start to consider that an abusive relationship is what is taking place.

[Mira]

Not to give merrit to the battered woman thing. Did Ronon take a cheap shot... yeah. However, he also beat on the military guys. Then after he showed what he was capable of, he showed the soldiers how to do the same moves. My thinking is that he would have done the same with Teyla had Shep not freaked. He later quite sincerely apologised if he crossed the line, which he didn't IMO.

[Jeyla4ever]

I do think that Ronan has been really "rough" with Teyla. But, in this situation, I think that is just the way the character is supposed to be portrayed..and frankly, I don't like that side of him.....
There should be something said about this...and the writers should back off a little with this....I mean would he do the same thing to Weir....
On the other side, I think that Teyla is used to this kind of attitude from men. She is a warrior and fights right along side Sheppard and his team as one....and not as a female per say....
But, to extend it and interpret it as abusive...Don't see that! I can understand the person who did come up with the thought and I do think that there are valid points there or better yet, certainly something to think about...Yet, overall, I think Teyla can handle herself, but I don't think Ronan will mess with her any time soon. Overall, I think these two characters worked well for each other, just not in any kind of romantic way....I will leave that for Sheppard and Teyla.

[uknesvuinng]

I see no merit to this idea as neither Dex nor Teyla fit the psychological profiles of the roles they supposedly have. Dex didn't respond aggressively when his control over any situation was threatened. Abusers always have to show control over the situation, and don't let the ones they control ever feel like they have control. Abusers in relationships must always overtly maintain and protect their control. The only time an abuser may not appear controlling is when they have to do so to a third party that could take away their control if the party knew they were abusive. When Teyla pulled that knife on Dex, and he didn't immediately stop it, it showed that he was willing to release control and hear what she had to say. That scene shows pretty well that despite his roughness, he does respect Teyla and cares if he hurts her.

Teyla's fighting back also demonstrates that she lacks the unswerving submissiveness characteristic of the abused. The fact that she on multiple occasions let Dex know of her displeasure with his actions show that she still has control in the situations and she trusts him enough to listen.

Abusive relationships are all about overt control through force and creating a sense of inferiority in the victim(s). Dex and Teyla's relationship is open, honest, and equal. It's hit a major conflict because of their opposing methods (her diplomacy and his directness), but conflict when dealt with correctly always leads to growth in the relationship. These characters really have an excellent foundation for friendship and are probably the only believable main character 'ship pairing on Atlantis right now.

Addendum:

In response to the post above, I do not think Dex would treat Weir like that. Dex seems to have an intuitive sense of just how far he can go with people, and he likes to walk that line to keep them a hair's-width from off balance. It's a pretty effective way of reading people, actually.

[Major Tyler]

I don't see Teyla as a "battered woman" by any means. She does cover for Ronon, but I think it's because she doesn't want to appear as if she needs help. She is a strong person and she wants to continue to be perceived that way, but I'm sure if Ronon really crossed the line in his physical interactions with her, she'd call him out on it.

As far as my opinion of Ronon, up until "Trinity" I really liked him. I thought he was a fascinating character that would add a lot to the story. Now that I know he's a cold-blooded murderer I (obviously) don't like him anymore. Personally, I'm shocked Teyla let that monster back through the gate to Atlantis, much less promised to keep his crime a secret.