Mass Effect universe discussion thread

[DigiFluid]

But you should have further back saves, shouldn't you? My last save wasn't before Cerberus, but my save 3 or 4 back was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmcIJjPJyB8

First 11:30-ish minutes of this is the full conversation with the Starchild.

Okay just getting to this now (wasn't ignoring you earlier, I was at work!)

It's....still absurd. Completely illogical. And a complete betrayal of the story of ME1.

To summarize the extended Catalyst chat:

• he's an intelligence designed to bring peace between organics and synthetics
• he embodies collective Reaper intelligence
• he was created by people who thought organic/synthetic conflict was inevitable
• he was first created to facilitate communication btwn organic/synthetic
• Reapers a synthetic representation of Catalyst creators
• Catalyst's creators did not approve of Reaper 'solution,' but Catalyst did it anyway

The problems are still exactly the same as they were before the EC DLC:

• it still supposes that synthetics (Reapers) destroying organics is somehow a "solution" to....synthetics destroying organics. Er...
• it still says that organic/synthetic conflict is inevitable -- despite that WE CAN FIX THAT EXACT PROBLEM EARLIER IN THE SAME GAME
• the plot of ME1 makes absolutely no sense at all if the Starchild controls the Reapers and did all along

From a more...narrative cohesiveness point-of-view, it's also still ludicrous. You don't tell a story with a set of villains consistent all the way through and then in the last 5 minutes change gears and say 'HO HO, it was THIS GUY (who you've never met before and was never hinted at until about 10 minutes ago) all along!' That's just lazy, horrible storytelling.



*sigh*

After watching the Destroy ending I was somewhat impressed that they'd cleaned it up. But now that I've seen this...I see that the single most story-destroying part of it is still there and that they didn't fix anything Anybody would be right to point out that this is not unexpected--they did say that they weren't fundamentally changing the ending, so we knew (more or less) that this would happen. But still....ugh.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

And that's nonsense. They're a label, who are specifically trying to market their products (which, at this point, are exclusively sequels) based on the quality of past products. They can't have it both ways; if they want me to keep buying their products based on how good the previous title in the series was, the previous title in the series damn well better have been good, or you've got no marketing platform. Ergo, I'm not going to be plunking down my cash as quickly.

This is pretty much marketing and brand value 101, I'm not sure what the problem is

But as I have explained over and over again, there is no real brand value with EA. With Bioware key people in charge will be changed project to project because of the nature of EA management, it's roulette with every single EA game.

[AtlantisRules!!!]

*snip*

The Catalyst is trying to avoid the end of ALL organic life by synthetic domination. Such as, for example, the Geth deciding that all organics must die because they want to rule everything. His solution is to stop organics from creating these synthetics by wiping them out. Thus preserving organic life, just not advanced organic life.

We do fix that problem, but it seems we must assume the Geth are different from most synthetics. Or at least the synthetics that the Reaper-Creators made. Seeing as the Geth don't want to dominate the Galaxy.

And I don't understand why ME1 doesn't make sense. Is it cause Saren is using Synthetics to do his bidding? That's all I could come up with but I could also come up with a way to explain that.

It's the same villain. He IS the Reapers, the Reapers' Collective Knowledge, the Force behind it all, the Mastermind, the Leader. There certainly is value to bringing a character like that in earlier (as in, not that the very end), but I can respect this way too. The character had no reason to speak to Shepard until the Crucible was introduced, that moment when Shepard changed the game. Up until that point it was just business-as-usual.

I dunno, maybe I'm just forgiving with these things, but I don't mind it at all

[Raelis]

[list][*]it still supposes that synthetics (Reapers) destroying organics is somehow a "solution" to....synthetics destroying organics. Er...

I think there is some perverted logic to this. It seems the Catalyst's ultimate goal is to make sure that the organic life always exists in the galaxy. He never aims to protect specific organics living in this time and age - he thinks about this in a more global sense. Organic life in general must be preserved, but when organics are so advanced that they start creating beings that are superior to them on any level (synthetics), not only do they start digging their own grave, but they are also dooming new developing organic life because synthetics will be a real threat to it too. So the Reapers could destroy all the synthetics, but it would not help in the long run because the advanced civilizations will create synthetic life again. So, by Catalyst's logic, it's better to remove the advanced civilizations permanently. In his view, this will actually help preserve the organic life in genral because, as he himself states, new, developing civilizations are not harmed. Thus, the goal of preserving organic life in general in the galaxy is achieved, even if the advanced civilizations had to be exterminated fo this.

[*]it still says that organic/synthetic conflict is inevitable -- despite that WE CAN FIX THAT EXACT PROBLEM EARLIER IN THE SAME GAME

This is the main flaw of the endings for me. There had to be a chance for Shepard to argue with the Catalyst abut this.

Of course, to a dergee I agree with the Catalyst. I think conflict in general is inevitable, tragic though it may sound. But the thing is, it can be conflict between orgranics and synthetics, conflict between orgranics and organics, or conflict between synthetics and synthetics. Such is human/alien nature. The only way to make sure conflict does not exist at all is to ease all life in th galaxy, synthetic and organic. It's a pessimistic viewpoint, but given that there will always be people who want to start a war over one thing or another, eternal peaceful co-existence does not seem to be possible.

Maybe the Catalyst's point was the same as Javik's: synthetics are by nature superior to organics and thus they present a bigger threat. So, given that conflict in some form is always going to happen, the consequences of the conflict between synthetics and organics are always going to be more devastating. So the Catalyst thinks that organics must be stopped from creating synthetics at any cost...

[Starsaber]

Looks like people have found hints on a new DLC.
Slightly spoilery if the DLC does come around.
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1453657...athan_dlc.html

I hope this one is single player. MP is fun at times, but I play Mass Effect games for the story.

I've downloaded Extended Cut, but probably won't play it until this weekend.

[Teddybrown]

I hope this one is single player. MP is fun at times, but I play Mass Effect games for the story.

I've downloaded Extended Cut, but probably won't play it until this weekend.

From what Ive read, it sounds like it will be a single player DLC.

[DigiFluid]

And I don't understand why ME1 doesn't make sense.

It's the same villain. He IS the Reapers, the Reapers' Collective Knowledge, the Force behind it all, the Mastermind, the Leader. There certainly is value to bringing a character like that in earlier (as in, not that the very end), but I can respect this way too. The character had no reason to speak to Shepard until the Crucible was introduced, that moment when Shepard changed the game. Up until that point it was just business-as-usual.

I dunno, maybe I'm just forgiving with these things, but I don't mind it at all

The Catalyst is the mastermind of the Reapers, his utterly nonsensical 'solution.' The Catalyst is in the Citadel, and is by all observations, a completely sentient entity--we know (now) that he's not just some Reaper construct, he's the one who had the original idea for the Reapers and created them despite his creators' wishes.

In what universe does it make sense that Saren and Sovereign had to attack the Citadel to call the other Reapers into the galaxy? Yes yes, the Protheans disabled the automated signal...but the Catalyst--a sentient entity!--was in the Citadel the whole time. All he had to do to start the galactic apocalypse was pick up a bloody phone.

This is the driving story that launched the whole franchise. And with the invention of the Starchild for ME3, suddenly the very foundation and premise of the entire franchise's story doesn't make any sense.



And now that I stop and think about it, the Starchild makes ME2 make little to no sense as well. Sure, they incorporated the 'harvesting' idea of ME2 into the Starchild motivations in ME3. But..uh...what was the point of starting it early and plucking colonists from the Terminus systems when a couple of months later YOUR ENTIRE ARMY is going to pour into the galaxy? To do the exact same thing, which by Starchild explanation, is what they've been doing for countless millennia anyway! (So it's not even like we were a unique challenge!)

[AtlantisRules!!!]

The Catalyst is the mastermind of the Reapers, his utterly nonsensical 'solution.' The Catalyst is in the Citadel, and is by all observations, a completely sentient entity--we know (now) that he's not just some Reaper construct, he's the one who had the original idea for the Reapers and created them despite his creators' wishes.

In what universe does it make sense that Saren and Sovereign had to attack the Citadel to call the other Reapers into the galaxy? Yes yes, the Protheans disabled the automated signal...but the Catalyst--a sentient entity!--was in the Citadel the whole time. All he had to do to start the galactic apocalypse was pick up a bloody phone.

This is the driving story that launched the whole franchise. And with the invention of the Starchild for ME3, suddenly the very foundation and premise of the entire franchise's story doesn't make any sense.



And now that I stop and think about it, the Starchild makes ME2 make little to no sense as well. Sure, they incorporated the 'harvesting' idea of ME2 into the Starchild motivations in ME3. But..uh...what was the point of starting it early and plucking colonists from the Terminus systems when a couple of months later YOUR ENTIRE ARMY is going to pour into the galaxy? To do the exact same thing, which by Starchild explanation, is what they've been doing for countless millennia anyway! (So it's not even like we were a unique challenge!)

Vigil said the Keepers were normally the ones to activate the Mass Relay, if he needed the Keepers he obviously cannot control it himself. This leads me to the assumption that all he can do is control Reapers and Indoctrinated people. Once he realized he couldn't control the Keepers any longer, he sent Sovereign (and Saren) in to get the job done. And then, in ME3 when the Reapers re-gain the Citadel, he could have a Cannibal or something fix the Keepers. This explains why the Keepers seemed to be helping him in the end.

When Shepard ruined the initial invasion, the Starchild was thrown for a loop, no one had ever done that before! The Reapers are stuck in Empty-Space and he doesn't have a plan to get them out yet. So he turns to the one resource he has in position already, the Collectors. He saw through Saren that a human was the driving force behind Sovereign's defeat, and that the other races did not believe the Reapers existed. He sends the Collectors against the one race who might be a problem, Humans. Start with the weak, unprotected colonies on the outskirts of civilization, then move towards the stronghold, Earth. They even manage to kill the one who killed Sovereign! And then Cerberus comes onto the scene, bring Shep back, and kills the Collectors, again proving that the humans are going to prove problematic.

While the Collectors are working, the Starchild gets a new idea to get his fleet in, the Alpha Relay! Foiled again. (I don't know any details about Arrival since I never bought it.)

Presumably at this point, the Reapers actually find a way to get back into the Galaxy. And the invasion begins! With Earth being a primary target, and one of the first worlds hit. Get those pesky humans out of the way.

Now, this is all speculation of course. Feel free to poke holes in it.

[Teddybrown]

Vigil said the Keepers were normally the ones to activate the Mass Relay, if he needed the Keepers he obviously cannot control it himself. This leads me to the assumption that all he can do is control Reapers and Indoctrinated people. Once he realized he couldn't control the Keepers any longer, he sent Sovereign (and Saren) in to get the job done. And then, in ME3 when the Reapers re-gain the Citadel, he could have a Cannibal or something fix the Keepers. This explains why the Keepers seemed to be helping him in the end.

When Shepard ruined the initial invasion, the Starchild was thrown for a loop, no one had ever done that before! The Reapers are stuck in Empty-Space and he doesn't have a plan to get them out yet. So he turns to the one resource he has in position already, the Collectors. He saw through Saren that a human was the driving force behind Sovereign's defeat, and that the other races did not believe the Reapers existed. He sends the Collectors against the one race who might be a problem, Humans. Start with the weak, unprotected colonies on the outskirts of civilization, then move towards the stronghold, Earth. They even manage to kill the one who killed Sovereign! And then Cerberus comes onto the scene, bring Shep back, and kills the Collectors, again proving that the humans are going to prove problematic.

While the Collectors are working, the Starchild gets a new idea to get his fleet in, the Alpha Relay! Foiled again. (I don't know any details about Arrival since I never bought it.)

Presumably at this point, the Reapers actually find a way to get back into the Galaxy. And the invasion begins! With Earth being a primary target, and one of the first worlds hit. Get those pesky humans out of the way.

Now, this is all speculation of course. Feel free to poke holes in it.

This might sound really silly, but whos Vigil?
Is it in a DLC or boom I havent seen?
Or is he in the ME games and Ive just forgotten...

[AtlantisRules!!!]

This might sound really silly, but whos Vigil?
Is it in a DLC or boom I havent seen?
Or is he in the ME games and Ive just forgotten...

The Prothean VI on Ilos who tells you that the Citadel is a Mass Relay.

[Teddybrown]

The Prothean VI on Ilos who tells you that the Citadel is a Mass Relay.

Ah yes, still slightly confused by this bit though...

Vigil said the Keepers were normally the ones to activate the Mass Relay, if he needed the Keepers he obviously cannot control it himself. This leads me to the assumption that all he can do is control Reapers and Indoctrinated people.

What do you mean?

[AtlantisRules!!!]

Ah yes, still slightly confused by this bit though...

What do you mean?

Vigil said the last Protheans used the Conduit to gain access to the Citadel and turn off the signal that told the Keepers to activate the MAss Relay function and let the Reapers in. So, if the *Keepers* were the ones to do this, then the Catalyst/Starchild obviously could not do it. So that makes me think all the Catalyst/Starchild can do is control the Reapers and control Indoctrinated Organics.

This was my response to this bit:

In what universe does it make sense that Saren and Sovereign had to attack the Citadel to call the other Reapers into the galaxy? Yes yes, the Protheans disabled the automated signal...but the Catalyst--a sentient entity!--was in the Citadel the whole time. All he had to do to start the galactic apocalypse was pick up a bloody phone.

[Teddybrown]

Vigil said the last Protheans used the Conduit to gain access to the Citadel and turn off the signal that told the Keepers to activate the MAss Relay function and let the Reapers in. So, if the *Keepers* were the ones to do this, then the Catalyst/Starchild obviously could not do it. So that makes me think all the Catalyst/Starchild can do is control the Reapers and control Indoctrinated Organics.

This was my response to this bit:

Ah, didnt realise you were talking bout the Starchild, makes sense now

[DigiFluid]

Vigil said the Keepers were normally the ones to activate the Mass Relay, if he needed the Keepers he obviously cannot control it himself. This leads me to the assumption that all he can do is control Reapers and Indoctrinated people. Once he realized he couldn't control the Keepers any longer, he sent Sovereign (and Saren) in to get the job done. And then, in ME3 when the Reapers re-gain the Citadel, he could have a Cannibal or something fix the Keepers. This explains why the Keepers seemed to be helping him in the end.

So..he can devise a harebrained scheme to "harvest" organics in order to prevent organic/synthetic war (incidentally, if organics are being harvested, what's happened to all the synthetic creations of the past?), can actually physically have the first Reapers constructed against the will of his physical creators--but he can't flip a switch to make the call?

It's ludicrous. It makes no sense at all. And since the facts as established in ME1 are the premise for the whole trilogy, the 'new facts' revealed by the end of ME3 do little more than make the whole thing a confused and completely inexplicable mess.

When Shepard ruined the initial invasion, the Starchild was thrown for a loop, no one had ever done that before! The Reapers are stuck in Empty-Space and he doesn't have a plan to get them out yet.

But as the EC 'clarified' -- he is both his own entity and the collective intelligence of all the Reapers. So whether he flips a switch in the Citadel or just sends out a metaphysical 'hey guys,' he's not without means. Means which undermine and completely destroy the premise as established in the title that launched the franchise.

So he turns to the one resource he has in position already, the Collectors. He saw through Saren that a human was the driving force behind Sovereign's defeat, and that the other races did not believe the Reapers existed. He sends the Collectors against the one race who might be a problem, Humans. Start with the weak, unprotected colonies on the outskirts of civilization, then move towards the stronghold, Earth. They even manage to kill the one who killed Sovereign! And then Cerberus comes onto the scene, bring Shep back, and kills the Collectors, again proving that the humans are going to prove problematic.

And, so, therefore? He can give his Reaper buddies a shout at any time. What possible reason could they have for building a 'prototype' human Reaper if they've been doing this since time immemorial? The rest of the team is going to be there very shortly! The Starchild wrecks the plot of ME2 too, because he could literally have said to Harbinger at any time, call the rest of the fleet!

With the 'advent' of the Starchild plot, there's literally ZERO reason to start harvesting humans for a prototype Reaper. None whatsoever. All he had to do was tell Harbinger to call in the fleet and boom, game over, cycle begins again. No reason to tip anyone's hand, no reason to waste resources, no reason to abandon the element of surprise. It's all utterly pointless once we find out there's a demigod AI/VI sitting around who could've just said "go" at any moment.




And I hope you'll note...I don't mean any of this as indignant/angry words with you. You and I, we have no beef It's the completely nonsense ending of ME3 that's my only issue in our conversation

[AtlantisRules!!!]

So..he can devise a harebrained scheme to "harvest" organics in order to prevent organic/synthetic war (incidentally, if organics are being harvested, what's happened to all the synthetic creations of the past?), can actually physically have the first Reapers constructed against the will of his physical creators--but he can't flip a switch to make the call?

The Catalyst didn't create the Reapers, his creators did. They probably intended the Catalyst to use them as a strongarm tactic. Peace through superior firepower and all that. He began his solution instead, that's what the creators didn't agree with. So as far as we know, there was no control outside of telling the Reapers "kill!".

And I believe the Catalyst (in EC) stated that the Reapers harvest Synthetics too. Could be wrong though, only heard that conversation once.

But as the EC 'clarified' -- he is both his own entity and the collective intelligence of all the Reapers. So whether he flips a switch in the Citadel or just sends out a metaphysical 'hey guys,' he's not without means. Means which undermine and completely destroy the premise as established in the title that launched the franchise.

He could probably go talk to the Keepers, yes. But I don't think he has any control without that signal. The Keepers aren't indoctrinated, and as it's been established they care little for anything other than the well-being of the Citadel.

And, so, therefore? He can give his Reaper buddies a shout at any time. What possible reason could they have for building a 'prototype' human Reaper if they've been doing this since time immemorial? The rest of the team is going to be there very shortly! The Starchild wrecks the plot of ME2 too, because he could literally have said to Harbinger at any time, call the rest of the fleet!

The Human Reaper I honestly have no idea about. My only guess would be: Reapers are modelled after the Creators. Seeing as the Creators created him, the Catalyst would probably think of them as powerful. When a human killed a Reaper (Sovereign), perhaps he saw that same power, something that could overcome the power of the Creators. So he decided to try out a Reaper modelled after a human, to see if the form was superior.

Like I said, that is a guess and I have zero evidence to back that up.

With the 'advent' of the Starchild plot, there's literally ZERO reason to start harvesting humans for a prototype Reaper. None whatsoever. All he had to do was tell Harbinger to call in the fleet and boom, game over, cycle begins again. No reason to tip anyone's hand, no reason to waste resources, no reason to abandon the element of surprise. It's all utterly pointless once we find out there's a demigod AI/VI sitting around who could've just said "go" at any moment.

But it's not like the Reapers were just sitting there with a way to come back. Well, they were, the Citadel, but Shep ruined that plan. The Catalyst could've said "go" all he wanted, but the Reapers had no way to follow that order. Not until the whole Alpha Relay idea came about, and then whatever plan actually worked.

You're right, it wouldn't make sense to sent the Reapers in while the Collectors are still working. The only way this makes sense is if the Collectors' were not a part of the original plan and were only brought in once the Reapers were delayed.

And I hope you'll note...I don't mean any of this as indignant/angry words with you. You and I, we have no beef It's the completely nonsense ending of ME3 that's my only issue in our conversation

Of course not. I am enjoying the opportunity to test my theory. Cause it would make me feel a lot better about ME3 if I could convince someone that I am right.