Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[redrama9]

Glad you're enjoying it, redrama9.

You'll find, that even though it is different from Buffy in tone, that you'll end up addicted to it just as much. One of the best episodes of season 2, "Are You Or Have You Ever Been" is a series classic...and right on the first disc. And it just goes from there.

I envy you. I wish I was still able to enjoy episodes from the Buffyverse for the first time.

Yeah its good to have new episodes to watch. Also everything seems to be pretty original no stories that you have already seen on buffy. I liked the flashbacks of the past in season 2 i always looked forward to seeing one of those. And they did it in a way that made it really good if you had seen the flashback of Spike killing the slayer in the boxing rebellion getting the story of what Angel and Darla where doing while spike was fighting the slayer. I hope there are more flashbacks of the past in the next season. haha i also thought it was funny some of the things Angel said to the master.

[kharn the betrayer]

oh dont worry you will get to see plenty of flash backs by the end of the series

[Ripple in Space]

Yeah its good to have new episodes to watch. Also everything seems to be pretty original no stories that you have already seen on buffy. I liked the flashbacks of the past in season 2 i always looked forward to seeing one of those. And they did it in a way that made it really good if you had seen the flashback of Spike killing the slayer in the boxing rebellion getting the story of what Angel and Darla where doing while spike was fighting the slayer. I hope there are more flashbacks of the past in the next season. haha i also thought it was funny some of the things Angel said to the master.

Buffy's "Tabula Rasa" & Angel's "Spin the Bottle" are the same concept, and aired around the same time, but they're not identical...

I like the Master flashback too, since it's used to explain 1. Why the Master considers Angelus to be the most vicious creature he's ever met (trying to take on a Big Bad as a newb), and 2. Why Angel was too scared to take on the Master in Buffy S1.

[redrama9]

Well i have finished watching the first three seasons. There were a few surprises like Angel trying to kill Weasly. Cordelia ascending? so its just no stargate that has ascension. So whats all this about season 4??? Is it really that bad??? should i skip straight to season 5 but then i wont get to see how angel gets out of that box. Although im assuming the ascended cordelia will get him out one way or another. Yeah so anyway without giving much away can anyone tell me why season 4 is so bad. Are there off screen reasons why or something. Someone said above that the whole of season 4 is one big arc which sounds good which makes me more confused as to why season 4 is so much worst then the other seasons.

[Naonak]

Oh, season 4 isn't actually bad (IMO at least) it just isn't as good as the rest. To be honest, I'm not totally sure why, as there's some fantastic episodes in there (it also ties in quite a lot with the final season of Buffy).

I think there's just a few elements which didn't really work, plus a kinda icky relationship (although it does make sense later).

But, no, don't skip the season.

[kharn the betrayer]

as much as I dislike most of S4 you pretty much have to watch it or S5 will leave you going WTF O_o


especially when it comes to certain characters and character development (glares at Wesley) as well as why they are in the situation they are in

and ''kinda icky'' is not what i would describe that relationship as either <_<

[redrama9]

i watched the first episode of season 4 and it wasn’t all that good so that isn’t encouraging.

[Ripple in Space]

Seriously? I liked the first ep... Yeah, you can't skip S4. Personally, I have a problem with the Arc, not the individual episodes. Most of Angel's Arc that began in season 1 of Buffy (aside from the Buffy & Wolfram & Hart parts) leads up to episodes 20 & 21 of Season 4. And they just don't do a 7-year arc justice. Those two can't even be compared to most of the Buffy & Angel finales.

Episode 22 leads directly into Season 5.

[redrama9]

Does anyone think that Angel hurts the importance of the slayer portrayed on Buffy. On Angle humans Charles, Weasly and even Fred take out vampires easily. Charles is a good fighter but he is still human. Weasly has developed as a character and now kills vampires easily as well despite the fact he is also human. An then there is Fred i mean she hurts the image of the slayer the most. Just her and Charles took out 5 or 6 vampires at the merry go round by themselves.

On the opposite side on Buffy also does anyone think Spike got knocked around too much. He is suppose to be a vampire that has killed two slayers and he always was getting his arse kicked.

Just going by Angel its like Charles is better to have in a fight then Spike which is not true.

[Naonak]

Does anyone think that Angel hurts the importance of the slayer portrayed on Buffy. On Angle humans Charles, Weasly and even Fred take out vampires easily. Charles is a good fighter but he is still human. Weasly has developed as a character and now kills vampires easily as well despite the fact he is also human. An then there is Fred i mean she hurts the image of the slayer the most. Just her and Charles took out 5 or 6 vampires at the merry go round by themselves.

I dunno - the rest of the Scooby Gang took out their fair share of vamps too.

On the opposite side on Buffy also does anyone think Spike got knocked around too much. He is suppose to be a vampire that has killed two slayers and he always was getting his arse kicked.

Usually by Buffy... I can't really think of any other examples, although I think he was usually either outnumbered or up against something kinda nasty (like Olaf).

[Ripple in Space]

Does anyone think that Angel hurts the importance of the slayer portrayed on Buffy. On Angle humans Charles, Weasly and even Fred take out vampires easily. Charles is a good fighter but he is still human. Weasly has developed as a character and now kills vampires easily as well despite the fact he is also human. An then there is Fred i mean she hurts the image of the slayer the most. Just her and Charles took out 5 or 6 vampires at the merry go round by themselves.

On the opposite side on Buffy also does anyone think Spike got knocked around too much. He is suppose to be a vampire that has killed two slayers and he always was getting his arse kicked.

Just going by Angel its like Charles is better to have in a fight then Spike which is not true.

I agree to some extent, but....

Charles Gunn has been fighting vamps for somewhere around 20 years, longer than almost anyone. He's also physically fit, with a powerful 6'4"+ 200lbs+ build. And possibly most importantly, he's not scared of Vamps. Fear is usually what does most humans in.

Wesley has now gotten into shape, lost his insecurities, plus he has ALL of the TRAINING that Slayers have. Heck, he was trained to be able to teach Slayers the ropes.

I can't say much about Fred, aside from the fact that she survived in a hell dimension on her own without super powers. And without giving away too much, she's considered by some to be the "perfect human being."

Spike, I agree with you to some extent. However, he's never been shown to be especially physically strong. Sure he outclasses 99% of vamps, but Slayers are notably stronger than Vamps. Even Angel was usually unquestionably stronger than Spike. Spike's main advantage was that he summed people's personalities up, and attacked their weaknesses. He also enjoys fighting constantly, which Slayers usually don't (sans-Faith). While Faith is stronger, I could see Spike killing her. At least he thought he could.

As far as the significance of the Slayer, well Buffy hurt that the most. Now there are thousands... From Angel, I take away that Angel is more important that Buffy for the fight of good. Angel is slightly less physically strong, but he has more combat experience, he's immortal, gun shot wounds just make him angry, he's far more durable, arguably fast, and can jump higher. He also doesn't have to sleep and eat.

A funny debate Angel and Spike have later on is about how the Big Bads that Buffy put down were more powerful, that her Big Bads could really have destroyed the world. And Spike doesn't consider Angel's battles to have been as important.

[redrama9]

I dunno - the rest of the Scooby Gang took out their fair share of vamps too.

Usually by Buffy... I can't really think of any other examples, although I think he was usually either outnumbered or up against something kinda nasty (like Olaf).

not reallly i mean xander, willow and oz did 1 vampire at a time when buffy ran away after she killed angel and mostly when they had just risen, but most of the time if xander tried to take a vampire on he would just get thrown agaisnt the wall or something. Never in 7 years did we see say xander and willow take out 6 vampires at once by themselves. Even Anya when she became human was useless in a fight despite the fact she knows how to fight. When she became a vengence demon again she could hold her own against buffy. I dont remember any fights on buffy where i fought that character shouldnt have been able to do that. Charles ok say he is a great fighter two campires should be able to take him out you know what i mean.

[Ripple in Space]

not reallly i mean xander, willow and oz did 1 vampire at a time when buffy ran away after she killed angel and mostly when they had just risen, but most of the time if xander tried to take a vampire on he would just get thrown agaisnt the wall or something. Never in 7 years did we see say xander and willow take out 6 vampires at once by themselves. Even Anya when she became human was useless in a fight despite the fact she knows how to fight. When she became a vengence demon again she could hold her own against buffy. I dont remember any fights on buffy where i fought that character shouldnt have been able to do that. Charles ok say he is a great fighter two campires should be able to take him out you know what i mean.

In that episode, weren't all of those vamps malnourished & beat up by Holtz' crew before the fight?

You can't compare Xander to Gunn. Even in real life Nicholas vs. J August would be a two second fight, with Nicholas having an 8" & 30+lbs disadvantage. Much less Gunn with the expertise of vampire hunting since he was a teenager, vs. Xander who's a poor fighter even by human standards.

Cordelia: Boy, of all the humiliations you've had I've witnessed, that
was the latest.

Xander: (points back at Jack) I could've taken him.

Cordelia: Oh, please. O'Toole would macrame' your face. He is a psycho.
Which is still a lot cooler than being a wuss.

Xander: (glances at Jack) Why is it that I've come face-to-face with
vampires, demons, the most hideous creatures Hell ever spit out, and I'm
still afraid of a little bully like Jack O'Toole?

Cordelia: Because, unlike all those creatures that you've come face-to-
face with, Jack actually noticed you were there.

Xander: Why am I surprised by how comforting you're not?

Cordelia: It must be really hard when all your friends have, like,
superpowers -- Slayer, werewolf, witches, vampires -- and you're, like,
this little nothing. (Xander looks down) You must feel like Jimmy Olsen.

Xander: (chuckles) I was just talking to... (suddenly offended) Hey,
mind your own business!

Cordelia: Ooo, I struck a nerve. The boy that had no cool.

[Trek_Girl42]

and ''kinda icky'' is not what i would describe that relationship as either <_<

Really really really icky, is more how I'd describe it.

[Flyboy]

I agree to some extent, but....

Charles Gunn has been fighting vamps for somewhere around 20 years, longer than almost anyone. He's also physically fit, with a powerful 6'4"+ 200lbs+ build. And possibly most importantly, he's not scared of Vamps. Fear is usually what does most humans in.

Wesley has now gotten into shape, lost his insecurities, plus he has ALL of the TRAINING that Slayers have. Heck, he was trained to be able to teach Slayers the ropes.

I can't say much about Fred, aside from the fact that she survived in a hell dimension on her own without super powers. And without giving away too much, she's considered by some to be the "perfect human being."

Spike, I agree with you to some extent. However, he's never been shown to be especially physically strong. Sure he outclasses 99% of vamps, but Slayers are notably stronger than Vamps. Even Angel was usually unquestionably stronger than Spike. Spike's main advantage was that he summed people's personalities up, and attacked their weaknesses. He also enjoys fighting constantly, which Slayers usually don't (sans-Faith). While Faith is stronger, I could see Spike killing her. At least he thought he could.

As far as the significance of the Slayer, well Buffy hurt that the most. Now there are thousands... From Angel, I take away that Angel is more important that Buffy for the fight of good. Angel is slightly less physically strong, but he has more combat experience, he's immortal, gun shot wounds just make him angry, he's far more durable, arguably fast, and can jump higher. He also doesn't have to sleep and eat.

A funny debate Angel and Spike have later on is about how the Big Bads that Buffy put down were more powerful, that her Big Bads could really have destroyed the world. And Spike doesn't consider Angel's battles to have been as important.

To be fair. They weren't.

If I recall rightly, it's only the Angel S4 and 5 finale where the world was at stake, the other battles were all more personal. That said, I reckon Angel (or Spike) are more integral to the Buffyverse than Buffy. Why?

Buffy S1 - Buffy could not have defeated the Master had Angel not found her in time to save her.

Buffy S2 - Angel was the big bad, whcih made him later decide to go to LA.

Buffy S3 - Whilst not defeating the mayor directly, Angel played a key role.

*Angel leaves for LA*

Buffy S4 - Unlike the previous 3 seasons, Adam does not represent a world ending threat. Buffy defeats him on her own... well... sort of.

Buffy S5 - Buffy defeats Glory, ok I'll give her that one.

Buffy S6 - Xander saves the day.

Buffy S7 - Spike saves the world using an amulate brought to him by Angel.

If we turn to look at Angel, unlike Buffy, we can't just go season by season, it was all leading up to S4. I'd argue that all the events of Angel and the first 3 seasons of Buffy lead to Angel being a pawn in the plans of two parties; Jasmine and the Senior Partners. The Senior Partners have manipulated Angel to suprress a threat to their apocalypse (the apocalypse caused by the First) and Jasmine manipulated Angel to create her world. The Senior partners win. They succesfully eliminate all competition. And now they're apocalypse is what is left. As the key figure, it is only Angel who can make a difference. All the other silly little "apocali" were insignificant. ANgel alone faces the big one.

So why is Spike the key player? Because he too has been just as integral to everything in the show, and yet there's one big difference. Even when Spike became vampire, he wasn't a monster. Angel was. Angel MADE Spike the monster. Spike sought his own soul.