Deep Space 9 Superior

[gopher65]

As an example of how this kind of thing plays out in reality, there is the old cliché of "... IN SPACE!".

This is where movie or television producers take an old, used up idea and try to refresh it by changing the surface details of the story to be... IN SPACE! So, for instance, you take a basic dramatic story, about, say, a small family, and you put them onto a ship... IN SPACE! in order to try and fool the audience into thinking that there is something new going on. But there isn't. It is the same rehashed storyline that we've all seen a thousand times before, except that it is... IN SPACE! Weeeeee!

Hannibal... IN SPACE!
Muppets... IN SPACE!
Nero Burning Rome... IN SPACE!
The American Revolution... IN SPACE!
WWII... IN SPACE! (or, as we refer to it, seasons 4-7 of DS9)

[Linda06]

This is because there are only a handful of different plots (5 or 6? I don't remember the exact number) and less than 100 different subdivisions of those plots.

Think about it. How many basic plotlines can you think of (without delving into specifics)? Mystery, Drama, Exploration (action/adventure)? That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Pick one of those, and list all the different subtypes of that plot that a writer could use.

Mystery: Solve New Mystery, Solve Old Mystery, Fail To Solve New/Old Mystery, Discover Existence of New/Old Mystery But Don't Try And Solve It (just revel in the mere existence of the mystery. Personally I find these boring. Star Trek does a lot of these).

That's all I can think of right now. So if you're writing a mystery, those are your choices. Everything after that is just fluffy details that change with each story (IE, Romances novels where they change the details of the encounter (name of the ski/waterski/hunting lodge, names of characters, etc), but not the basic formula of the story.)

After you've listed out all of those subtypes, you can hybrid them. Action/Mystery, for example. But hybriding doesn't change the core nature of the stories, and it won't fool audiences into thinking they're seeing something new. Most stories are hybrids.

So once a show gets up to ~100 episodes, it has *no choice* but to start reusing old plots with a slight twist, because it has already used up every different plotline that humans have thusfar conceived.
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This reminds me of an episode of an old, short-lived show called "Dinosaurs" (IIRC). It was a live action show about a family of dinosaurs, Flintstones style. Anyway, in one of the episodes they are introduced to a TV producer who makes their version of Unsolved Mysteries, and he's looking for a new mystery for his show.

It turns out that there are only 4 mysteries in the entire show, and they just cycle through them. Unfortunately (or, for him, fortunately) dinosaurs have such small brains that by the time they get to episode number 4 they've forgotten about episode number 1, which means that they can just replay that episode as if it were new.

Turns out that humans are the same way, except we need 100 episodes, not 4. Heh.

Or in my case, 3 eps

Shut up Jel

[Rac80]

My gripe about Amsiov vs. lucas is that lucas lifted most of the plot of Star Wars directly from asimov... beleive me if you read his empire novels you see the star wars stories played out.

I don't mind rehashing of plots, just do it imaginatively! some shows have a real problem with that "cough first season of TNG cough"-- that is probably WHY i disliked the show. I wanted new trek, not TOS plots revisited.

[the Fifth Race]

lol yes they are brother nx. But if you look at most scifi shows (as if you didn't already know) they all seem to recycle story lines and premises, albeit with slightly different takes so as to not make it seem to repetitive or obvious. Some times its annoying, and some times time it works out for the best.

Agreed and well said brother Starbase. I can remember many times when watching Atlantis where I thought to myself - 'hey, I have seen this before on Stargate or Star Trek or some other scifi show'. And like you suggest - "some times it's annoying, and some times it works out for the best".

Turns out that humans are the same way, except we need 100 episodes, not 4. Heh.

LOL

WWII... IN SPACE! (or, as we refer to it, seasons 4-7 of DS9)

Complete with its own Nazi/Holocaust arc (Cardassians/Bajorans). Well said posts brother gopher.

[Descent]

My gripe about Amsiov vs. lucas is that lucas lifted most of the plot of Star Wars directly from asimov... beleive me if you read his empire novels you see the star wars stories played out.

Lucas (like any 'artist') borrowed from various inspirations. The Hidden Fortress was also a big influence on the first SW film (using R2 and 3PO's point of view for the story). It wasn't just Empire.

I don't mind rehashing of plots, just do it imaginatively!

Yep. It's like film remakes. If you're gonna take the time to redo something, don't just copy and paste.

some shows have a real problem with that "cough first season of TNG cough"-- that is probably WHY i disliked the show. I wanted new trek, not TOS plots revisited.

Haha come on, it wasn't that bad. Okay well there were only like... 6 or 7 episodes in the entire that I really enjoyed... and the rest ranged from mediocre to GARBAGE... but still! They were finding their way. There hadn't been a real Trek series for like... almost 20 years at that point. S2 was a slight improvement and S3 was a BIG improvement (probably their best season, actually). You know you love TNG, just admit it!

[the Fifth Race]

Lucas (like any 'artist') borrowed from various inspirations. The Hidden Fortress was also a big influence on the first SW film (using R2 and 3PO's point of view for the story). It wasn't just Empire.

As some of you might know, I live in both San Francisco and Marin County where I have a house - which is literally about 2 miles from Lucas' palace (SkyWalker Ranch). I just read an interview he did with our local paper where he talked about Star Wars and his love of scifi in general. He mentioned Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry more than a few times praising him and the franchise for being one of the big inspirations for him to make the Star Wars movies.

Haha come on, it wasn't that bad. Okay well there were only like... 6 or 7 episodes in the entire that I really enjoyed... and the rest ranged from mediocre to GARBAGE... but still! They were finding their way. There hadn't been a real Trek series for like... almost 20 years at that point. S2 was a slight improvement and S3 was a BIG improvement (probably their best season, actually). You know you love TNG, just admit it!

LOL we have been trying to convert Lady Rac for years brother Descent. Occasionally she relents and praises something about TNG (usually it's about Riker LOL). At least her wonderful husband is a fan. Maybe she is a closet TNG fan.

[Descent]

LOL we have been trying to convert Lady Rac for years brother Descent. Occasionally she relents and praises something about TNG (usually it's about Riker LOL). At least her wonderful husband is a fan. Maybe she is a closet TNG fan.

Ohhh, she'll come around. She probably is a closet fan given how many times she brings it up.

I just read an interview he did with our local paper where he talked about Star Wars and his love of scifi in general. He mentioned Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry more than a few times praising him and the franchise for being one of the big inspirations for him to make the Star Wars movies.

I think Lucas is a good guy who gets blindly beaten around too much by the fanboys/the internet in general.

I'm pleasantly surprised that he mentioned Star Trek as an inspiration! In one of his commentaries for the Star Wars films, he explained how much he hated technobabble and explaining away fictional technology (something I can relate with ). I bet he loved the new Star Trek film (which borrowed more from Star Wars than it did from Star Trek).

[Rac80]

Don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars and think George Lucas is one of the better writers/directors out there. BUT if you have read any of the early foundation or empire novels it is obvious that Lucas borrowed more than a little from them. and the lucky starr novels (c'mon Lucky Starr and Luke Skywalker....young whiney men out to save the galaxy?). These were published in the 1950's and since my local library was very small and rural (read poor) growing up the selection of books was limited and I am a voracious reader...the novels are hard to find today...but Lucas seriously stole from Asimov IMHO.



Pssst I am NOT in the TNG closet!

[Linda06]

I liked the old star wars movies, not so keen on the new movies

I didn't really watch that much TNG to determine whether i'd like it or not, but I saw First contact and liked that. Especially the part where Troi is a little tipsy

[Descent]

the novels are hard to find today...but Lucas seriously stole from Asimov IMHO.

Stole? Nah. Everyone 'borrows' from everyone. In fact, Lucas and the Star Wars films influenced Asimov to later include Aliens and Robots into the very same book series Lucas "stole" from (he apparently decided to merge it with his Robot series..?).

If I was ever to make a movie/TV series (ha), I would borrow/incorporate elements from various things that I grew up loving/respecting.

Star Trek '09 is (in a lot of ways) a total riff on A New Hope. Kirk is even called a "farmboy" at one point. Still, it was a familiar story that was done well.

People influence each other, that's all.

Pssst I am NOT in the TNG closet!

Pffft.

[Rac80]

Stole? Nah. Everyone 'borrows' from everyone. In fact, Lucas and the Star Wars films influenced Asimov to later include Aliens and Robots into the very same book series Lucas "stole" from (he apparently decided to merge it with his Robot series..?).

If I was ever to make a movie/TV series (ha), I would borrow/incorporate elements from various things that I grew up loving/respecting.

Star Trek '09 is (in a lot of ways) a total riff on A New Hope. Kirk is even called a "farmboy" at one point. Still, it was a familiar story that was done well.

People influence each other, that's all.



Pffft.

you obviously haven't read asimov...he doesn't "do" aliens. I am talking about the earliest books from the 40's and 50's. try the lucky starrbooks... definitely luke skywalker. I have always been surprised at how closely Lucas "paralelled" Asimov.
It's the like the Agatha Christie mysteries...7 plots done over and over ....only the names and locations have been changed.

[Descent]

you obviously haven't read asimov...he doesn't "do" aliens.

Ah, you got me there. But here ya go: Blind Alley. Doesn't do aliens indeed!

I am talking about the earliest books from the 40's and 50's.

Well, I was specifically talking about those last two Foundation books he did in the 80s (after Star Wars).

[gopher65]

It's the like the Agatha Christie mysteries...7 plots done over and over ....only the names and locations have been changed.

"The names and locations in this novel have been changed to protect the innocent... mainly the author... from copyright lawsuits."

[Rac80]

Ah, you got me there. But here ya go: Blind Alley. Doesn't do aliens indeed!



Well, I was specifically talking about those last two Foundation books he did in the 80s (after Star Wars).

oh he did a few alien stories, but the vast majority had the Milky way galaxy inhabited by only humans and robots. (refuses to disclose publicly exactly HOW MANY asimov books and short stories she owns! )

oh yeah the two in the 80's and the two in the 90's were great.... BUT they only built on the earlier stories. (considers self something of an Asmiov purist!)

[gopher65]

Asimov's main universe had no (intelligent) aliens in the Milky Way. He did do some unconnected books about aliens though. I can think of 3 off the top of my head.