Deep Space 9 Superior

[Starbase]

There is a lot I like about ENT, such as the way they made the Enterprise feel like it was a logical development from Cochran's prototype. There was also a good sense of the human race's first tentative steps into the unknown. I appreciated the attention to detail of things like this. Whilst I couldn't really get to grips with and see the point of the 'Temporal Cold War' theme, all the early interactions with alien species that we get to see in later Trek were always a joy to see. One of my favourite characters was Shran, got to love Jeffrey Combs, he brings such depth to the characters he plays on Trek.

I found the "Temporal Cold War" rather perdictable myself. Almost like they were searching for some sort of catch that would last throughout the entire series. While I found some of it interesting, a lot of it was dissappointing. The Xinidi/Expansion alien arc was the best part of the series and it made ENT seem like a true Star Trek show. I also found it hard to attach on to most of the characters on ENT. Hoshi was just plain annoying, Trip was golly gee willikers swell , Malcolm was helter skelter and not very believable at all, Travis was decent enough but way under-used, T'Pol took me 3 seasons to warm up to, Phlox was boring and interesting all at the sametime, I liked Archer even though he seemed out of place occasionally. By the end of season 4 I had become much more of a fan and was bummed when they pulled the plug, especially reading what Manny Coto and TPTB had planned for season 5.

DS9 Season III Episode Discussion
Episode #59 Heart of Stone

Odo finally reveals his true feelings to Kira...or so it seems. The desperate situation with Kira stuck in some supposed stone leads to Odo's confession but even if it rings true it all seems a contrived situation to force the 'big revelation'. However I did like the twist at the end when we find out its not Kira after all. The B-plot is much better and the start of some of the finest character development ever. Nog joins Starfleet, which seemed like something reidiculous at the time, but actually turns out to the best thing for Nog's character and DS9 over-all.

[gopher65]

By the end of season 4 I had become much more of a fan and was bummed when they pulled the plug, especially reading what Manny Coto and TPTB had planned for season 5.

I think that's what got a lot of people; it was just starting to get good! Like every Star Trek series, its first 2 seasons weren't great, the 3rd was better, and then it started to pick up (cept for TOS, which didn't have enough seasons for us to know if it would have followed the same pattern). That just seems to be the way Star Trek goes, for whatever reason. I think that with Enterprise we were all more sensitive to the bad eps, and more dismissive of the good, than we were with previous the series' episodes. Probably because many of us had had 15 solid years of Trek at that point, and we were starting to burn out. I know I was.

When TNG first came on people were bouncing up and down in their seats waiting for new Trek. And even though the first 2 seasons were hard-core in their suckage, people still ate it all up. When DS9 came along people started dropping away. They already had Trek, and while more was good, it wasn't awesome. And this continued with Voyager and Enterprise until the viewership dropped below the critical level that the network would tolerate.

(Along a similar line of thought, I recently read an article about gas mileage. Increasing from 10mpg to 20mpg saves you 5 gallons per 100 miles. Increasing from 25mpg to 50mpg saves you 2 gallons per 100 miles. Diminishing returns. Same idea with ST. Increase from no Trek to a little bit of Trek, and everyone is happen. You can double the amount of Trek, but you won't double your number of viewers, or people's happiness. You'll just give them more things to nitpick and compare.)

[Alan Wake]

Damn... i really wish i could see more of this show. Alot of people seem to really like it... but they never show it on T.V. Ive seen every other Star trek show, and episode, but i have only seen maybe 2 episodes from DS9. Seems like the networks don't wanna show Reruns of this.

But I would have to say voyager is my favorite.

[flyerdog]

I think that's what got a lot of people; it was just starting to get good! Like every Star Trek series, its first 2 seasons weren't great, the 3rd was better, and then it started to pick up (cept for TOS, which didn't have enough seasons for us to know if it would have followed the same pattern). That just seems to be the way Star Trek goes, for whatever reason. I think that with Enterprise we were all more sensitive to the bad eps, and more dismissive of the good, than we were with previous the series' episodes. Probably because many of us had had 15 solid years of Trek at that point, and we were starting to burn out. I know I was.

When TNG first came on people were bouncing up and down in their seats waiting for new Trek. And even though the first 2 seasons were hard-core in their suckage, people still ate it all up. When DS9 came along people started dropping away. They already had Trek, and while more was good, it wasn't awesome. And this continued with Voyager and Enterprise until the viewership dropped below the critical level that the network would tolerate.

(Along a similar line of thought, I recently read an article about gas mileage. Increasing from 10mpg to 20mpg saves you 5 gallons per 100 miles. Increasing from 25mpg to 50mpg saves you 2 gallons per 100 miles. Diminishing returns. Same idea with ST. Increase from no Trek to a little bit of Trek, and everyone is happen. You can double the amount of Trek, but you won't double your number of viewers, or people's happiness. You'll just give them more things to nitpick and compare.)

I think the reason is that it takes about 2 seasons to really get to know the characters..unlike other shows, Trek does not have cookie-cutter characters that fit certain molds..they are much more complex than that..as such it takes time for these characters to get fleshed out. The other thing is (and this sounds awful) but after Gene died, the actors in TNG felt somewhat liberated, and free to really explore and play with their characters..while Gene was around they always felt obligated to adhere to his vision of the characters by the book..though Gene was not closed minded...in the Third season of TNG as shooting began..John Frakes showed up on set with his famous beard..prepared to shave it..but Gene told him "John, let's keep the beard" , it definitely added an edge to the character..and gave him a look of wisdom, and some grit...imo this is where Voyager had problems..we didn't really see a lot of evolution of the characters, with the exception of the Dr. They could have done a lot with Harry Kim and Paris particularly..though I liked Paris..he was the guy you could sit down and have a Beer with (maybe we should elect HIM president of the US!!!...long story!!!)

[Starbase]

Damn... i really wish i could see more of this show. Alot of people seem to really like it... but they never show it on T.V. Ive seen every other Star trek show, and episode, but i have only seen maybe 2 episodes from DS9. Seems like the networks don't wanna show Reruns of this. But I would have to say voyager is my favorite.

Hi ya Alan, welcome to Gate World the DS9/Star Trek/all purpose scifi thread. That's ok to love VOY here (I wouldn't say its my favorite Trek, but I do also love VOY as well), there are quite a few dedicated VOY fans that are regulars here. We do not discriminate on this thread, we have grown in to a very informative all purpose and all encompassing Star Trek/Scifi thread, and an awesome one at that.

DS9 is still on air if you have access to cable or satellite Alan. They show episodes, albeit late night (check your local listings), on the puesdo Star Trek channel - Spike Network. They are currently about 6 episodes into the first season of DS9 as of this week. I just watched the very good premiere episode The Emissary last week.

[USS Defiant]

I think the reason is that it takes about 2 seasons to really get to know the characters..unlike other shows, Trek does not have cookie-cutter characters that fit certain molds..they are much more complex than that..as such it takes time for these characters to get fleshed out.

I found it took me about 2 seasons of both VOY and ENT until I started to warm up to the characters. I agree with you about how Star Trek characters in particular are usually very complex on many different levels, which is a truly brilliant thing when you consider the complexity of each series is to begin with. I think that is why some of us had to show a lot patience with some if not most of all the characters we met for the first time on any Star Trek show (movies included). Another thing that Star Trek does really well in all there series is the development of minor characters, whether they make one appearance or become a recurring character throughout a series, most are very memorable and very cool.

The other thing is (and this sounds awful) but after Gene died, the actors in TNG felt somewhat liberated, and free to really explore and play with their characters..while Gene was around they always felt obligated to adhere to his vision of the characters by the book..though Gene was not closed minded...in the Third season of TNG as shooting began..John Frakes showed up on set with his famous beard..prepared to shave it..but Gene told him "John, let's keep the beard" , it definitely added an edge to the character..and gave him a look of wisdom, and some grit

That is a very interesting piece of Trek trivia flyerdog. I seem to remember hearing about this at one of those big Trek conventions I use attend regulary. The beard did seem to elevate Riker's character in a positive way. I know I took him more serious once he donned that very well grown beard. I love pearls of Trek knowledge like that. It seems you are becoming a contributing member to our rather large yet tight group we have here. Who knows in a couple months you might become one of the brethren and then you will be known as brother flyerdog. I hope you stick around, you obviously have a wealth or Trek knowledge

...imo this is where Voyager had problems..we didn't really see a lot of evolution of the characters, with the exception of the Dr. They could have done a lot with Harry Kim and Paris particularly..though I liked Paris..he was the guy you could sit down and have a Beer with (maybe we should elect HIM president of the US!!!...long story!!!)

I agree that the hologram Doc was one of it not the most developed character on VOY, which seems kind of strange (like Data) since neither is of flesh or bone. I also found 7 of 9 a rather well developed character, we got to see her go from this robotic killing automaton to a very smart and loving yet ackward person, brilliant writing!. Janeway was also a character that doesn't seem to complex on the surface, very Stafleet Captain like, yet IMHO she came across as one of the most real characters from any Trek series. Tuvok was decent enough, Torres was annoying yet very watchable, Neelix and Kes were ho-humm. Paris and Harry had a great dynamic, I wouldn't call them Bashir and O'Brien, Bones and Kirk or Geordi and Data, but there buddy/buddy relationship was wonderful to watch unfold. They were both very believable and I love how Paris kind of treated Harry like his little brother, great stuff!. I also found Harry and Janeway's relationship wonderful and even beautiful. - She cared for him as someone special from the beginning knowing he was the youngest on the crew in his first assignment. And you could tell that Harry looked at her like a de-facto mother, especially in the later seasons. That was a unique dynamic you didn't see unfold on any other Trek series.

[flyerdog]

I found it took me about 2 seasons of both VOY and ENT until I started to warm up to the characters. I agree with you about how Star Trek characters in particular are usually very complex one many different levels, which is a truly brilliant thing when you consider the complexity of each series is to begin with. I think that is why some of us had to show a lot patience with some if not most of all the characters we met for the first time on any Star Trek show (movies included). Another thing that Star Trek does really well in all there series is the development of minor characters, whether they make one appearance or become a recurring character throughout a series, most are very memorable and very cool.
That is a very interesting piece of Trek trivia flyerdog. I seem to remember hearing about this at one of those big Trek conventions I use attend regulary. The beard did seem to elevate Riker's character in a positive way. I know I took him more serious once he donned that very well grown beard. I love pearls of Trek knowledge like that. It seems you are becoming a contributing member to our rather large yet tight group we have here. Who knows in a couple months you might become one of the brethren and then you will be known as brother flyerdog. I hope you stick around, you obviously have a wealth or Trek knowledge
I agree that the hologram Doc was the one of it not the most developed character on VOY, which seems kind of strange (like Data) since neither is of flesh or bone. I also found 7 of 9 a rather well developed character, we got to see her go from this robotic killing automaton to a very smart and loving yet ackward person, brilliant writing!. Janeway was also a character that doesn't seem to complex on the surface, very Stafleet Captain like, yet IMHO she came across as one of the most real characters from any Trek series. Tuvok was decent enough, Torres was annoying yet very watchable, Neelix and Kes were ho-humm. Paris and Harry had a great dynamic, I wouldn't call them Bashir and O'Brien, Bones and Kirk or Geordi and Data, but there buddy/buddy relationship was wonderful to watch unfold. They were both very believable and I love how Paris kind of treated Harry like his little brother, great stuff!. I also found Harry and Janeway's relationship wonderful and even beautiful. - She cared for him as someone special from the beginning knowing he was the youngest on the crew in his first assignment. And you could tell that Harry looked at her like a de-facto mother, especially in the later seasons. That was a unique dynamic to see unfold on any Trek series.

why thank you, yeah, I'll be around...you really saw the growth of the characters in TNG in the 4th season and beyond...

Geordi: became the classic 'nerd' who was more comfortable with Warp nacelles than women

Deanna: Got to explore her humorous side, and she go to share some 'woman' humor with Beverly

Data: became less of a child...Brent Spiner got to show his acting chops a little more (with all the recreations of Shakespeare)..and he became less of an automaton

Riker: became less of an obvious playboy, exposed his silly side..he also ditched that ridiculous move where he would walk into a turbo lift and spin around with his chest stuck out..that always annoyed me..like he was doing a Michael Jackson move!!

Picard: got more authoritative, but also showed some humor as well, and Guinan really added a new dimension to Picard's psyche

Beverly: became more assertive and more challenging to Jean -Luc...in this way her relationship with Picard somewhat mirrored Kirk/Bones..She wasn't afraid to tell Jean-Luc what for, and hold her ground on issues.

Worf: got to show his comedic side, who can forget the 'Animal House' bit in "Qpid": smashing the lute that Geordi is playing, then saying "sorry" ala John Belushi...lol!! or the classic line: "Captain I object!!! I am NOT a merry-man!!"

Even Q evolved from an insidous enemy to a nuisance to , perhaps, an ally.

[the Fifth Race]

why thank you, yeah, I'll be around...you really saw the growth of the characters in TNG in the 4th season and beyond...

By season IV I had felt like I had known all of the TNG characters (regulars and part-time) like family.

Geordi: became the classic 'nerd' who was more comfortable with Warp nacelles than women

Geordi was a total nerd and occasionally surly, almost annoying. That being said, he came across as unique and very believable.

Deanna: Got to explore her humorous side, and she go to share some 'woman' humor with Beverly

Once Deanna ditched the weeping eyes and face look she flashed throughout the first couple seasons she became a solid character. Some of the best stand alone TNG episodes involve Deanna storylines like the S6 TNG episode Face of the Enemy.

Data: became less of a child...Brent Spiner got to show his acting chops a little more (with all the recreations of Shakespeare)..and he became less of an automaton

Data is hands down my favorite TNG and one of my favorite all-time Trek characters. Data's character changed over the first couple seasons where he started out like an annoying hopped up, over inquisitive child android to this wonderfully naive entity with a heart of gold and wonderful demeanor. Data is in a lot of ways the essence of Star Trek.

Riker: became less of an obvious playboy, exposed his silly side..he also ditched that ridiculous move where he would walk into a turbo lift and spin around with his chest stuck out..that always annoyed me..like he was doing a Michael Jackson move!!

LOL, Riker always did seem like he was working at making sure his chest was pushed out and his waist sucked in. I like the Riker character (Will & Tom). He was the perfect second officer for Picard, there dynamic was believable and I love how Riker wasn't afraid to show his admiration and even love for Picard while maintaining an air of professionalism the whole series.

Picard: got more authoritative, but also showed some humor as well, and Guinan really added a new dimension to Picard's psyche

Picard is da man. Not my favorite Trek or Starfleet Captian of all-time but you cannot deny his presence and dedication he put in to the Picard character. He was born to play that role, and he did it oh so well.

Beverly: became more assertive and more challenging to Jean -Luc...in this way her relationship with Picard somewhat mirrored Kirk/Bones..She wasn't afraid to tell Jean-Luc what for, and hold her ground on issues.

I like the Beverely character, which puts me in the minority. I found her character believable and she always gave a great performance. The ackwardness that Picard and her shared throughout the series was fun to watch yet it also made you feel uncomfortable, very relalistic chemistry going on there, great acting and writing.

I even liked the Dr. Pulaski character (another not so popular choice). I did find her angst and almost racist type feelings for Data in the beginning quite surprising and a little annoying. She did everything in her power to be-little or bring him down, while failing miserably the whole time (like we saw in the great S2 TNG episode Peak Performance). But she eventually came around and saw cream/green colored tin-man as an individual and even ended up liking him.

Worf: got to show his comedic side, who can forget the 'Animal House' bit in "Qpid": smashing the lute that Geordi is playing, then saying "sorry" ala John Belushi...lol!! or the classic line: "Captain I object!!! I am NOT a merry-man!!"

Worf got to show his acting chops occasionally on TNG, but IMO he was way under-used. He got much more face time and dedicated episodes on DS9. Worf is easily one of the most popular characters from any scifi series, let alone Star Trek, of all-time. I particulary liked Worf in the S7 episodes Paralells and Sins of the Father.

Even Q evolved from an insidous enemy to a nuisance to , perhaps, an ally.

What's not to love about Q?. Every episode he appeared in covering TNG, DS9 & VOY are all favorite Trek episodes of mine. I was big DeLancie fan from his work on the Days of our Lives soap opera where he played the equally wacky and charismatic Eugene (Eug for short) years before TNG came around.

TNG was chalk full of great minor characters (some part time, some full time) including Reginald Barclay, Wesley Crusher, Tasha Yar, Guinan (who I love!), Miles O'Brien, Luxanna Troi, Ensign Ro, Nurse Ogawa, Alexander, Kurn, Duras & the Duras sisters, Gowron, Vash, The Traveler (great character!), Commander Tomaluk, Minute, Sarek, Professor Moriarty, Lt. Cmdr. Remmick etc.... They all had there moments and for the most part they all did great jobs.

[nx01a]

What's not to love about Q?. Every episode he appeared in covering TNG, DS9 & VOY are all favorite Trek episodes of mine. I was big DeLancie fan from his work on the Days of our Lives soap opera where he played the equally wacky and charismatic Eugene (Eug for short) years before TNG came around.

Don't forget: Eug was a psychic, time-travelling scientist. Sigh. Wacky Days writers.

And how could you forget Commander Shelby? She was grrrreat!

[jelgate]

Hi ya Alan, welcome to Gate World the DS9/Star Trek/all purpose scifi thread. That's ok to love VOY here (I wouldn't say its my favorite Trek, but I do also love VOY as well), there are quite a few dedicated VOY fans that are regulars here. We do not discriminate on this thread, we have grown in to a very informative all purpose and all encompassing Star Trek/Scifi thread, and an awesome one at that.DS9 is still on air if you have access to cable or satellite Alan. They show episodes, albeit late night (check your local listings), on the puesdo Star Trek channel - Spike Network. They are currently about 6 episodes into the first season of DS9 as of this week. I just watched the very good premiere episode The Emissary last week.

I think its only a matter time before Trek disappear from Spike. TNG is already gone and DS9 is only shown 3 days a week at 2am. VOY is still doing good but its still new on the channal. As soon as their contract expires, I imagine DS9 will disappear from Spike.

[nx01a]

There's always Sci-Fi. They just started TNG and ENT. Maybe VOY and DS9, even TOS aren't far behind.

[jelgate]

That would be my guess too. If anyone takes DS9 after it disappears from Spike, it will the SciFi channal.

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

Well I don't mind watching DS9 at 3am, it's when Albertos has the shortest line so I can eat my tacos and watch DS9. Oh, if anyone want's to see the Bill O'Reilly rap video just PM me and I'll PM it to you.

[USS Defiant]

That would be my guess too. If anyone takes DS9 after it disappears from Spike, it will the SciFi channal.

There's always Sci-Fi. They just started TNG and ENT. Maybe VOY and DS9, even TOS aren't far behind.

Now that would be pretty darn sweet considering I get the Scifi Channel in Hi-Def. I am holding out hope that Paramount decides to remaster TNG, DS9 and VOY and then re-realease them in the Hi-Def Blu Ray format (like they did with Firefly). I would gladly up-date my DVD Box Set collection to include those.

[the Fifth Race]

Don't forget: Eug was a psychic, time-travelling scientist. Sigh. Wacky Days writers.

With on and off again and equally wacky girlfriend Calliope who wore the craziest get-up's with her little couture hats. Do you remember Euge's alias he went by when he was writing?, I believe he called himself Bettina Lovecraft. And if I remember right Euge disappeared for good from Days when his time machine blew up. IMO they couldn't have found a better actor to play the indomitable Q!.

Check out these pictures of a very young looking John DeLancie (Eugene Bradford) and girlfriend Calliope. Notice the pic half way down the page on the left side of the screen where it shows DeLancie in a Civil War era military uniform kissing Calliope, doesn't that look like Q and Janeway from the S3 VOY episode The Q and the Grey ....
http://members.tripod.com/~JohndeLancie/jdlegb.htm

And how could you forget Commander Shelby? She was grrrreat!

I didn't really forget her, she ranked less than nurse Ogawa so I left the beotch off my list.