Deep Space 9 Superior

[flyerdog]

I'm glad to did and welcome to the DS9/Trek/all purpose scifi thread Forthestars.
Very well said and I agree with most everything you stated. As much as some people bag on the fact that DS9 was dark and not of Gene's vision so to speak, DS9 did NOT ruin Gene's Trek legacy or the franchise as whole, quite the opposite. IMHO it showed a side of Star Trek that needed to be seen. It gave us one of the best and most sweeping scifi storylines of all-time with some of the most memorable characters anywhere.

I like your line about how "that Gene was a visionary of the late 20th century with his hands on TOS and TNG; Ronald Moore and Ira Behr were the visionaries of the 21st century with DS9". RDM and Behr did do a lot for the Trek franchise with DS9 by moving it into the 21rst century. And like you stated (paraphrasing). - The storylines on DS9 are more modern and closer to today's events than what we got on TOS and TNG. Even by today's standard's, DS9 holds up quite well, its storyline has a lot of paralells with what is going on in today's society.

good points, I understand the direction they had to go in DS9..a new perspective on an established institution...Yeah it's true that while the Federation enjoyed peace and harmony...there was still mop up duty to be performed in the galaxy, that is where DS9 comes in..

my objections to DS9 are more superficial...

1. I've said it before , I'm just not a fan of Avery Brooks as an actor, imo he lacks the depth and dynamics needed for such a role..every line is delvired with the same timbre..whether he is sad, angy, happy etc...

2. DS9 snobbery: there are a LOT of these guys..who seem hell bent on blaming Voyager as the demise of Trek..they can't trash it enough..and sit on their soapbox proclaiming how wonderful and flawless DS9 was, and Star Trek is now in the toilet because of Voyager...(ENT imo was far worse) and some calling Capt Janeway "an insult to Women..." ??????. Sure Voyager had some bad scripts , but so did all the series..really is anything in Voyager WORSE than "Spock's Brain" or "I, Mudd" ? , hardly !! LOL!!!

also their claims that Voyager 'ruined' the BORG..really? Did not Guinan say in "Q who?" that in time it might be possible to establish a relationship with them...Scorpion 1 and 2 are awesome episodes if you ask me...

I have a friend who works for Paramount, he told me that during the development of "Enterprise" they sent talent scouts to local gyms in LA (Ballys, Golds) for casting purposes..that says it all!!

The episodes of TOS and TNG that really stand out to me are the ones where the imperfections of the Federation and Starfleet are the focus...like "The Measure of a Man", "A Private Little War", "The Drumhead", "The Pegasus"...

Even in the 'perfect' world of TNG and TOS, they had enough savvy to realize that no systme or govt is perfect..there will alwyas be cracks or flaws

[flyerdog]

Blade is da bomb. One of my all-time favorite dark characters from any movie or book. I was bummed big time after the Spike network pulled the plug on Blade: The Series. If you haven't seen it, rent the first and only season on DVD Box Set, highly entertaining and down-right creepy!, even more so than the movies.

you know it's funny because the ratings system is so silly these days...granted studios would rather go for the PG-13 than R as it = greater revenue..but as an example..the upcoming MOvie "Hancock" was going to be an "R" movie because of one scene: where Hancock hands a bottle of booze to a child..the ratings board told them they had to remove that scene or get an 'R' rating...

in Casino Royale, Daniel Criag was forbidden from smoking on screen..or the would give it an "R" rating

it seems that excessive alcohol use or tobacco use = "R"

[Trek_Girl42]

Trek Girl, seeing that you're from Canada, I take it you've heard of Forever Knight, yes? It is an excellent vampire/cop show. I have all three seasons on DVD and I highly recommend it.

Yes, I've heard of it but I've never seen it! My library has it, but it's finding the time to borrow/watch it.

Please don't

Hate is a strong word. Like Lady Trek, I saw the commercials for it, and it just didn't like it. Its my personal rule not to trash TV show/movie, so I really don't hate it, just uninterested.

Yes, that's it, uninterested! I'd rather re-watch Buffy/Angel. Again, if I had the time.

I like your line about how "that Gene was a visionary of the late 20th century with his hands on TOS and TNG; Ronald Moore and Ira Behr were the visionaries of the 21st century with DS9". RDM and Behr did do a lot for the Trek franchise with DS9 by moving it into the 21rst century. And like you stated (paraphrasing). - The storylines on DS9 are more modern and closer to today's events than what we got on TOS and TNG. Even by today's standard's, DS9 holds up quite well, its storyline has a lot of paralells with what is going on in today's society.

I like that too, I think DS9 completely holds up today, having watched the series for the first time about a year and a half ago. It's still one of the best sci-fi series to pick for the first time, and I'm sure in a few years I'll re-watch and feel the same way.

It's interesting to see the evolution of sci-fi/fantasy television- starting with ST TOS, Doctor Who, BSG TOS, ST TNG, The X-Files, B5 (well, haven't seen this one, but I get the gist of how important it is), ST DS9, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Farscape, Firefly, and now to BSG, each creator a visionary pushing the genre forward- I want to know where it'll go next!


And I'm sure I've missed some pretty important stuff in there.

[Forthestars]

good points, I understand the direction they had to go in DS9..a new perspective on an established institution...Yeah it's true that while the Federation enjoyed peace and harmony...there was still mop up duty to be performed in the galaxy, that is where DS9 comes in..

my objections to DS9 are more superficial...

1. I've said it before , I'm just not a fan of Avery Brooks as an actor, imo he lacks the depth and dynamics needed for such a role..every line is delvired with the same timbre..whether he is sad, angy, happy etc...

2. DS9 snobbery: there are a LOT of these guys..who seem hell bent on blaming Voyager as the demise of Trek..they can't trash it enough..and sit on their soapbox proclaiming how wonderful and flawless DS9 was, and Star Trek is now in the toilet because of Voyager...(ENT imo was far worse) and some calling Capt Janeway "an insult to Women..." ??????. Sure Voyager had some bad scripts , but so did all the series..really is anything in Voyager WORSE than "Spock's Brain" or "I, Mudd" ? , hardly !! LOL!!!

also their claims that Voyager 'ruined' the BORG..really? Did not Guinan say in "Q who?" that in time it might be possible to establish a relationship with them...Scorpion 1 and 2 are awesome episodes if you ask me...

I have a friend who works for Paramount, he told me that during the development of "Enterprise" they sent talent scouts to local gyms in LA (Ballys, Golds) for casting purposes..that says it all!!

The episodes of TOS and TNG that really stand out to me are the ones where the imperfections of the Federation and Starfleet are the focus...like "The Measure of a Man", "A Private Little War", "The Drumhead", "The Pegasus"...

Even in the 'perfect' world of TNG and TOS, they had enough savvy to realize that no systme or govt is perfect..there will alwyas be cracks or flaws

You know of the four episodes you mentioned; drumhead is one of my favorite from TNG due to the force of the characterization and the cold calculating hysteria it entailed. "Measure of a man" has served as the Asimov connection stories that are always fun to see, but it was not about bad starfleet officers; it was more about the ideals of what life truly is. "Pegasus" was ruined more by its inception into Ent "These are the voyages.....", I am sorry to say, but the episode on its own was interesting.

Of the series TNG had a maturity that was intentional and interesting about it, which continued out into DS9. However, I will freely admit bias due to growing up on TNG and DS9, I was born in 1987, so I caught the last few seasons of TNG as a kid and watched DS9 onward completely. I only started watching TOS later on on Sci-fi or late at night on nbc.

I understand Voyager's story and I liked several of their episodes, but the show was not my favorite overall due to not breaking any new ground. Holographic rights was begun in TNG with Prof. Moriarty and artificial lifeforms with measure of a man as you mentioned. Borg to human transformation also TNG byproduct. Maquis stories TNG/DS9.

Where the later show failed involved a complicit misunderstanding in terms of characterization and plot elements. Voyager should have been about the journey to the Alpha Quadrant; not the adventure of the week. If Janeway could have broken the rules and did more unethical things to get her crew home, while suffering the conscience aftermath, there would be some interesting stories. Voyager's episode "Void" was the ironic episode that should have been the series; too bad, the show runners could not go in that direction more than a few times during the run. That point is why I do not blame Berman or Braga really. They tried to keep Gene's dream alive at all odds like the story, but Gene's vision had to change with the times and they just would not or could not due to their ideals. Voyager represents neither our future or past due to these circumstances.

Enterprise was not the right direction to go towards unless you wanted to explore the character elements and understand the beginnings of the star trek. The regular adventure of the week that only partially worked for Voyager depending on episodes would fail utterly for Enterprise. The story arc approach proved superior for this show at the end. Grand arcs would have to be the founding of the federation; not the temporal cold war, another element that destroyed the show.

I loved Bakula and thought with the right script he could do wonders, but his archer was not used to its true strength until later. Season one was horrible and season two faired no better. Season three was action packed, but very loosely based and possibly negates everything later on with the end of the temporal cold war. Again not a representation of the future or present; it should have represented our past.

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

Please don't

Hate is a strong word. Like Lady Trek, I saw the commercials for it, and it just didn't like it. Its my personal rule not to trash TV show/movie, so I really don't hate it, just uninterested.

Wait, what did you hate, the series or the 3 movies? Because I really never got into the series.

[the Fifth Race]

you know it's funny because the ratings system is so silly these days...granted studios would rather go for the PG-13 than R as it = greater revenue..but as an example..the upcoming MOvie "Hancock" was going to be an "R" movie because of one scene: where Hancock hands a bottle of booze to a child..the ratings board told them they had to remove that scene or get an 'R' rating...

in Casino Royale, Daniel Criag was forbidden from smoking on screen..or the would give it an "R" rating

it seems that excessive alcohol use or tobacco use = "R"

A lot of that is politcal correctness gone awry. It stinks and I agree with you, but what the hell can any of us do?. I have already given up going and renting movies a lot more than I used to. Changing the ratings because of one silly scene is assinine and is ruining modern cinema. I thought thats what they gave us PG-13 for, so an occasional F-Word or violent scene won't ruin a rating, well its gone the opposite direction. Butchering a movie to appease the ratings police is gonna equal a half-azz product.

2. DS9 snobbery: there are a LOT of these guys..who seem hell bent on blaming Voyager as the demise of Trek..they can't trash it enough..and sit on their soapbox proclaiming how wonderful and flawless DS9 was, and Star Trek is now in the toilet because of Voyager...(ENT imo was far worse) and some calling Capt Janeway "an insult to Women..." ??????. Sure Voyager had some bad scripts , but so did all the series..really is anything in Voyager WORSE than "Spock's Brain" or "I, Mudd" ? , hardly !! LOL!!!

Oye Vai, the only snobbery I see is from the likes of someone who might dislike DS9 or a particular Trek series. Come on Flyerdog, you have been here long enough to see that all us DS9 fans aren't evil VOY, TNG, TOS and ENT hating Trekkers. Quite the opposite. I along with many other's on here LOVE ALL STAR TREK!, even the animated series. I have my preferences but I do not belittle any of the other series. I am huge Picard, Riker, Data and TNG fan as well as Janeway, Tuvok, Harry, 7 of 9 and VOY fan. I love and watch TOS and ENT regulary. So these so-called DS9 snobs do not exist here on this thread, I am very proud to say that people here wouldn't stand for that kind of stuff. Feel free to talk about about any and all aspects of anything Trek/scifi related, that's what this wonderful and informative this thread has evolved into.

[jelgate]

IMO, the second you resort to "snobbery", you have already lost. Their is nothing wrong with a little debate but resorting arrogance to me tells me you have nothing intelligence to say. Very few actually like snobs. I don't doubt for a second that are jerks who like TNG, VOY, and even DS9. One thing GW has taught me that each group has people that are just plain jerks and need to get a life. This thread may have started as place to talk about about DS9 but has changed into a place where DS9/Trek fans can go to talk about a vareity of subjects. I think the majority of us have all formed a friendship group with one another which in turn makes us respect each other opinions a lot. This network of friendship lead us to not tolerate trolls and troube makers

[marielabbott]

I've been a Star Trek fan since junior high, when I first discovered TOS repeats. I've watched all the other series as well (except for some of ENT's later seasons--must get to that, I know). There are series I like better than others, *points to thread title*, but just because I hold a certain opinion doesn't automatically mean I'm a snob. Or at least I like to think not.

[flyerdog]

IMO, the second you resort to "snobbery", you have already lost. Their is nothing wrong with a little debate but resorting arrogance to me tells me you have nothing intelligence to say. Very few actually like snobs. I don't doubt for a second that are jerks who like TNG, VOY, and even DS9. One thing GW has taught me that each group has people that are just plain jerks and need to get a life. This thread may have started as place to talk about about DS9 but has changed into a place where DS9/Trek fans can go to talk about a vareity of subjects. I think the majority of us have all formed a friendship group with one another which in turn makes us respect each other opinions a lot. This network of friendship lead us to not tolerate trolls and troube makers

I wasn't referring to anyone specific here, for that matter..but check out the IMDB board..NOTHING but DS9 snobs over there..who have nothing positive to say abut Voyager (and very few things about TNG for that matter)...

everytime you even mention Voyager...they go into their "Voyager sucks!! DS9 RULES!!!" tirade..In fact that is what led me here!! It's not enough that they have to constantly say that the writing sucked , the stories were bad..but then they also attack the actors...Well Kate Mulgrew beat out several high profile actresses to win the role.

Robert Beltran..boring, Garrett Wang: boring, they really reached the pinnacle of what they could do with Harry Kim, IMO he should have been written off the show in season 3 or 4

I don't mind that people have a favorite series (mine is TNG)..can't beat Picard for the apex of Starfleet Captains, and Patrick Stewart was probably the finest actor ever cast in any Trek series..or movie for that matter

[Weyoun]

I wasn't referring to anyone specific here, for that matter..but check out the IMDB board..NOTHING but DS9 snobs over there..who have nothing positive to say abut Voyager (and very few things about TNG for that matter)...

Does this look like the IMdb board to you?. The second you came on here you attacked DS9 and any DS9 fan in general as these types that like only DS9 and everything else Trek sucks. Why don't you save that crap and negative energy for the other forum and spare us your biased opinion.

[jelgate]

That is little too far brother Weyoun. Yes flyerdog probably should base his/her opinions on one forum but fans by defination are always passionate about their shows. I wouldn't say he was attacking us. He/she backed reasons why he/she didn't like DS9. This is still a discussion thread where people have the right to debate the quality of a show. We are all biased fans. The difference is we are biased for DS9 while flyerdog is biased against. But I would like to mention just because one board has jerk DS9 fans doesn't mean they all do. I am sure they are plenty of forums with jerk VOY or TNG fans

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

I wasn't referring to anyone specific here, for that matter..but check out the IMDB board..NOTHING but DS9 snobs over there..who have nothing positive to say abut Voyager (and very few things about TNG for that matter)...

everytime you even mention Voyager...they go into their "Voyager sucks!! DS9 RULES!!!" tirade..In fact that is what led me here!! It's not enough that they have to constantly say that the writing sucked , the stories were bad..but then they also attack the actors...Well Kate Mulgrew beat out several high profile actresses to win the role.

Robert Beltran..boring, Garrett Wang: boring, they really reached the pinnacle of what they could do with Harry Kim, IMO he should have been written off the show in season 3 or 4

I don't mind that people have a favorite series (mine is TNG)..can't beat Picard for the apex of Starfleet Captains, and Patrick Stewart was probably the finest actor ever cast in any Trek series..or movie for that matter

I like DS9 and Voyager. And some Ent episodes.

[Starbase]

Does this look like the IMdb board to you?. The second you came on here you attacked DS9 and any DS9 fan in general as these types that like only DS9 and everything else Trek sucks. Why don't you save that crap and negative energy for the other forum and spare us your biased opinion.

Well said brother weyoun. You have every right to speak your mind, especially when you hit the nail on the head like that. Personally it doesn't bother me, flyer's opinion is a moot point. He can talk all the crap he wants about DS9 and there fans. He might as well be talking to a wall on this thread with that stuff.

If you stop looking at us through those clouded glasses you seemed to have picked up on IMDB, ou might really learn to like us DS9/Trek fans on this thread flyerdog.

That is little too far brother Weyoun. Yes flyerdog probably should base his/her opinions on one forum but fans by defination are always passionate about their shows. I wouldn't say he was attacking us.

I disagree, brother weyoun spoke eloquently and precisely He is standing up for what he believes and what he loves. I dont think flyerdog is attacking us, he is just somewhat annoying.

[flyerdog]

Does this look like the IMdb board to you?. The second you came on here you attacked DS9 and any DS9 fan in general as these types that like only DS9 and everything else Trek sucks. Why don't you save that crap and negative energy for the other forum and spare us your biased opinion.

touchy, aren't we?

[Whitestar]

Bareil was a rather boring character, there was something unlikable about him that annoyed people. Basically, it seemed like the writers wanted to get rid of him, which was okay by me. Winn shows her true colors (again) and inability to do her job, big surprise, Kira was her brilliant self, her best work is when she is pushed to anger but holds back that Bajoran fire to control herself. Odo is one happy shapeshifter with Bareil out of the picture.

I was sad to see Bareil die but I sure wasn't about to join a support group about it. At least we saw him again thanks to the mirror universe. Again, poor Kira. I blame Winn!

Agreed, the death of Bareil was sad, but I must admit that his mirror counterpart was a far more fun and fascinating character.