Deep Space 9 Superior

[Krisz]

Voyager has never been desperate. The worst they got was Year of Hell and that was far more believable than the occasional lack of deuterium here or missing x component there. Janeway's morality would have been sorely tested under YoH conditions over the course of YEARS of hell, but I don't think she or the crew would ever stoop to the things the Equinox captain and crew did.

Sisko now... Sisko would have set up one of the aliens with the communicators as the fall guy for the deaths of the extradimensional entities.

Now that would have been the interesting thing to see, a different side to Trek, really explore that 'dark side' of humanity. I still feel it begs the question, would Janeway have gone down that road if the 'Year of Hell' turned into the 'Years' of hell? This is why this would have made for more interesting viewing, a step further along the path DS9 started with looking at the Federation in more shades of greys than whiter than white!

Look at the character of the Section 31 agent Sloan, he was more like Captain Ransom, a man who put all scruples aside to get a job they believed in done whatever the cost, he was a participant in the plot to commit genocide in the name of the Federation on Odo's people! What makes them any different? The slow horrific death inflicted on the Founders is on the same lines as that inflicted on the interdimensional aliens used for 'fuel' by the Equinox's crew. It's an exploration of how far humans will actually go in the face of extreme adversity that's interesting.

Well, I suppose this is a bit of a dismal approach and it's a happier Trek with the 'fluffier' Federation for easier viewing at the end of the day!

[the Fifth Race]

Viewers these days [and some of us from back in the day] want complex stories that suck them in week after week. That's one of my reasons for loving B5 and DS9. It doesn't have to be the strict 'miss an episode and DOOM!' of 24. B5 was arc based but each episode was pretty much self contained and could be enjoyed on its own, supplying enough info for the casual viewer to know what's at stake and going on.

Count me as one of those "Viewers" from "back in the day" that love long story line arcs. There is something very satisfying about watching a sweeping epic story unfold slowly over a season or multiple seasons or even an entire series. DS9 and B5 hung on to this edict throughout there respected run and it seems that the new BSG will do the same. This just one of many reasons all 3 of these shows are widely considered the holy-grail of modern scifi television.

IMHO another reason that DS9, B5 and new BSG are so good is how well the writers put together such interesting B-stories and even C-stories.

DS9 was ALL about change.

Amen brother nx01a. DS9 forever changed the face of Star Trek for the better. Hopefully future scifi based television shows will take the rather successful precedent that DS9, B5 and new BSG have set and use it to make some great scifi.

Janeway's hair......yeah, that was extent of her evolution over the course of the series.

LOL, at least her hair was semi-entertaining.

[nx01a]

Come on! That dome on her head in the first seasons was hilarious as heck! I remember a parody cartoon showing it surviving direct phaser fire. I loved the time travel episodes where the only way to tell what year it was was by looking at Janeway or Torres' hairstyles.

[Starbase]

Now that would have been the interesting thing to see, a different side to Trek, really explore that 'dark side' of humanity. I still feel it begs the question, would Janeway have gone down that road if the 'Year of Hell' turned into the 'Years' of hell? This is why this would have made for more interesting viewing, a step further along the path DS9 started with looking at the Federation in more shades of greys than whiter than white!

DS9 wasn't afraid to show humanity/Starfleet/Federation in a very realistic and sometimes very dark manner. There is a realism to DS9 that isn't there with any other Trek series or any other different scifi series for that matter.

Some great episodes that show what I would consider a very realistic dark side and good side of humanity are - Nor the Battle to the Strong, The Siege of AR-558, In the Pale Moonlight, The Assignment, For the Uniform, The Visitor, Paradise Lost, The Maquis, The Emissary, just to name a few .

[nx01a]

I'm always drawn to shows that don't portray humans as overcoming every evil of the past 100,000 years in 2 centuries hence. Even alien contact won't change us that much, unless they invade. I always found it highly hypocritical for our Fed captains to run around talking about how evolved humanity was, how far we've come, when they're examples almost every other episode of the same evils that we're supposed to have left behind. All the evil scientists and rogue captains and secret organizations and personal vendettas... It's great to acknowledge that we've come a long way from throwing nuclear weapons and racial slurs at each other, but, without extensive genetic and environmental modification, we'll still be human and act accordingly. And we all know to err is human.

[DigiFluid]

Some great episodes that show what I would consider a very realistic dark side and good side of humanity are - Nor the Battle to the Strong, The Siege of AR-558, In the Pale Moonlight, The Assignment, For the Uniform, The Visitor, Paradise Lost, The Maquis, The Emissary, just to name a few .

'Far Beyond the Stars' also comes to mind.

[dosed150]

DS9 wasn't afraid to show humanity/Starfleet/Federation in a very realistic and sometimes very dark manner. There is a realism to DS9 that isn't there with any other Trek series or any other different scifi series for that matter.

Some great episodes that show what I would consider a very realistic dark side and good side of humanity are - Nor the Battle to the Strong, The Siege of AR-558, In the Pale Moonlight, The Assignment, For the Uniform, The Visitor, Paradise Lost, The Maquis, The Emissary, just to name a few .

to me siskos decision in in the pale moonlight doesnt seem all that difficult, a petty crook, attempted murderer, romulan senator and 4 romulan soldiers seems such a small price to pay to defeat the dominion call me cold but id do it in a second

[DigiFluid]

to me siskos decision in in the pale moonlight doesnt seem all that difficult, a petty crook, attempted murderer, romulan senator and 4 romulan soldiers seems such a small price to pay to defeat the dominion call me cold but id do it in a second

I think that was kind of the point. Starfleet has always been portrayed as the noble race of the universe, who is notable particularly because they don't engage in underhanded and borderline treasonous acts. Having a Starfleet officer and the hero of the series engage in acts that are morally questionable at best and damnable at worst was a bold step for an already-bold series.

[Krisz]

I'm always drawn to shows that don't portray humans as overcoming every evil of the past 100,000 years in 2 centuries hence. Even alien contact won't change us that much, unless they invade. I always found it highly hypocritical for our Fed captains to run around talking about how evolved humanity was, how far we've come, when they're examples almost every other episode of the same evils that we're supposed to have left behind. All the evil scientists and rogue captains and secret organizations and personal vendettas... It's great to acknowledge that we've come a long way from throwing nuclear weapons and racial slurs at each other, but, without extensive genetic and environmental modification, we'll still be human and act accordingly. And we all know to err is human.

Me too. Anything that explores the possible evolution of humanity is always a fascinating thing for me. Stories like HG Well's 'The Time Machine' that try and project a possible development says alot about humans of the day whilst hoping for that 'Utopia'. I liked the way the 'Utopia' was not all it was cracked up to be and how the traveller's view of 'enlighted thought and behaviour' holds no value whatsoever in that future! It's this dark side, a shocking realisation that the evolution of mankind is not always the perceived 'smug superior evolution of values' put forward by Trek and others. Whilst the 'fluffy Federation' is a nice idea, it is as you said NxO1a not a realisic view of humans suddenly "overcoming every evil of the past 100,000 years in 2 centuries".

This is not to say that I don't enjoy the odd dose of 'gung ho humans' going in and changing everything and being the 'saviours of the Universe' sometimes and this is why shows like Trek and Stargate work. It cannot be denied that everyone needs that little bit of smug self belief in the wonders of the human race sometimes!! This is why I love Sci Fi, it covers every view of humanity from hopeful to downright doomladen! There is something there for every mood anyone can be in, from inspired to disillusioned!

[Trek_Girl42]

to me siskos decision in in the pale moonlight doesnt seem all that difficult, a petty crook, attempted murderer, romulan senator and 4 romulan soldiers seems such a small price to pay to defeat the dominion call me cold but id do it in a second

Isn't that scary though? I watched that ep, and upon finishing it, I realized that I too in that situation would have done everything that Sisko did. Kinda disturbing, but there you go. Easy choice, uneasy consequences.

I think that was kind of the point. Starfleet has always been portrayed as the noble race of the universe, who is notable particularly because they don't engage in underhanded and borderline treasonous acts. Having a Starfleet officer and the hero of the series engage in acts that are morally questionable at best and damnable at worst was a bold step for an already-bold series.

The Federation is just squeaky clean on the surface- you get what is essentially an empire that looks that good, is that far heralded, there's going to be a very dark hidden side to it- it's not possible to not have one. And Deep Space Nine did a great job of showing that, with the Maquis, Section 31, Sisko in this ep, etc.

[DigiFluid]

Just to nitpick a little, the Maquis are not Federation...I'm not even sure they're technically Federation citizens anymore since they're on worlds that were ceded to the Cardassians. (arguments pre-Dominion, obviously )

[Trek_Girl42]

Just to nitpick a little, the Maquis are not Federation...I'm not even sure they're technically Federation citizens anymore since they're on worlds that were ceded to the Cardassians. (arguments pre-Dominion, obviously )

The Cardassians sure still considered them Federation citizens- and the Federation was left with their mess. And especially considering the number of ex-Starfleet among them, makes them part of the "underside" of the Federation to me.

[DigiFluid]

It really is astonishing how much real-life experiences can change your perception of how you see something. I've known 'The Visitor' to be one of the best-written and most moving episodes of the entire series ever since I first watched it years and years ago.

This time was....a rather different experience. I'll be 23 in a couple of months (so not much older than Jake was at the beginning of the episode, at the time of the accident)... A couple of months ago, exactly a week before Christmas to be specific, I came unfathomably close to losing my own dad. He was in a pretty horrific car accident, bad enough that when the police arrived at the scene they were sure he was already dead... And then when we followed the ambulance to the hospital (they wouldn't let any of us ride in it with him), they made us wait in a private waiting room in the Emergency ward; which, for anyone who doesn't know, is usually where they place family when they don't expect the patient to survive. But he made it out okay, eventually, and is still recovering...

So naturally when watching 'The Visitor' just now I had an entirely different take on it than I'd ever had before. Sisko's apparent death right in front of Jake's eyes became all new kinds of moving and upsetting, as did Jake's grieving process.

I'm at a bit of a loss for words (for once ) to describe just how much more hard-hitting it became, but suffice it to say that it was an extremely difficult episode to watch...

[nx01a]

Isn't that scary though? I watched that ep, and upon finishing it, I realized that I too in that situation would have done everything that Sisko did. Kinda disturbing, but there you go. Easy choice, uneasy consequences.

Maybe it's just me but I find Sisko's actions easy to swallow, but I find Shep's little assisted suicide rather disturbing. Maybe it's that Sisko's 'victims' were collateral damage, pawns manipulated largely from a distance, while Shep's guy was personally twisted and turned into sacrificing himself. I respect Sisko for his decision and the way it disturbed him. I haven't looked at John the same way since, perhaps because I didn't see any remorse from him over doing it. Not to mention how ridiculously easy he accomplished the task. Psych Ops training, anyone?

I'm glad your dad's recovering, Digi. I lost my uncle last year, he pretty much was a dad to me. Anything to do with death and loss almost started the waterworks for me for a months, but you've gotta stay strong for everyone else sometimes.

[the Fifth Race]

I think that was kind of the point. Starfleet has always been portrayed as the noble race of the universe, who is notable particularly because they don't engage in underhanded and borderline treasonous acts. Having a Starfleet officer and the hero of the series engage in acts that are morally questionable at best and damnable at worst was a bold step for an already-bold series.

Very well said DigiFluid. Having any human make a decision like that, especially a "Starfleet Officer" was very "bold". Was it the right thing to do?- I would guess half the people would say it's justifiable, while the other half will say its immoral and criminal.

Sisko wasn't forced in to this so to speak, he wasn't presented with an opportunity to do it, Sisko put the wheels in motion all on his own volition. To me personally, this is were the grey area is. - Sure they are at war (and losing) and the human race and everyone else in Alpha Quadrant face imminent destruction. But is that enough for a human or anyone to sanction premeditated murder?. Again, I would guess that half would answer yes and half would answer no. Sisko fully realized what he did was wrong, very wrong, as he struggled with the decisions he had to make as Garak was carrying them out. But he made the decision realizing that he was going to have to live with the consequences or even have to answer for his actions. Now IMO, Sisko did have help in making his ominious choices - not once did the Prophets decide to show themselves and quide him while he kept his murderous plan alive. Knowing that Sisko doesn't always listen to the Prophets, would Sisko have gone through with it if the Prophets had told him not to?.

Sisko's apparent death right in front of Jake's eyes became all new kinds of moving and upsetting, as did Jake's grieving process.
I'm at a bit of a loss for words (for once ) to describe just how much more hard-hitting it became, but suffice it to say that it was an extremely difficult episode to watch...

I hope your father is doing well now Didgifluid?. Jake's grieving process (young and old Jake) was rather hard to watch unfold. Brilliant portrayal!.