Deep Space 9 Superior

[the Fifth Race]

anyway getting back to DS9 topic, i once heard and i cannot remember for the life of me where, but since reading the "xindi" thing mentioned in TNG i remembered someplace that the Hirogen were in fact originally drafted to be an ally in DS9 against the dominion, since the alien relay network form VOY that led all the way back to the alpha quadrant the idea was that the dominion were supposed to find the relay network and the hirogen finally found the new prey they were looking for, so the hirogens thirst for hunting and the federation's desperation were supposed to bring them together against them and tip the scale in season 6 or 7.

i wish i knew how to get a hold of that info, but it was just a conversation that was once said and for all i know may have been false, but it does get me thinking

I to remember reading something about the Hirogen getting involved as allies of the Dominion as well Darkstar, whether it was on another forum or on a ST dedicated website?.

Maybe when the Breen were brought in that it was originally going to be the Hirogen. Although it does not make that much sense considering we parted ways last with Hirogen on semi-good terms, But then again a race like the Hirogen would probably throw an alliance out the window if it meant more hunting opportunities.

Very good call Darkstar!

[Darkstar]

I to remember reading something about the Hirogen getting involved as allies of the Dominion as well Darkstar, whether it was on another forum or on a ST dedicated website?.

Maybe when the Breen were brought in that it was originally going to be the Hirogen. Although it does not make that much sense considering we parted ways last with Hirogen on semi-good terms, But then again a race like the Hirogen would probably throw an alliance out the window if it meant more hunting opportunities.

Very good call Darkstar!

the breen were a last minute change for the DS9 story, we knew of them in past episodes, but the way they came into the war was sudden and for me did't make sense too much, now a speices from the delta quadrant would have made sense if they were looking for new prey to kill, the federation being the loosing side may have been seen as unworthy prey but the dominion were powerful an aspect that the hirogen prefered to hunt that stood true when they were made for VOY, but the holodeck idea of hunting was made, a less than exciting idea i think to the origianl one, they should have come to help win the war instead

[Anubis69]

the breen were a last minute change for the DS9 story, we knew of them in past episodes, but the way they came into the war was sudden and for me did't make sense too much, now a speices from the delta quadrant would have made sense if they were looking for new prey to kill, the federation being the loosing side may have been seen as unworthy prey but the dominion were powerful an aspect that the hirogen prefered to hunt that stood true when they were made for VOY, but the holodeck idea of hunting was made, a less than exciting idea i think to the origianl one, they should have come to help win the war instead

I have to disagree. I loved the breen's part in the dominion war, albeit short. The Hirogen never really captured my imagination. Sure they were kinda cool but their technology was never vast enough to prove as devastating as the Breen's energy "sapping" weapons at the second battle of Chin'toka. The most the Hirogen could've done was provide some more targets for the Defiant.

Plus, IMO it wouldn't have made much sense if the Hirogen had entered the war. Sure, it could've been for the prey but the Breen's reasons seemed much more plausible. Their "rivalry" with the Romulans, not to mention getting their share of the Alpha Quadrant given their status as minor powers up till the war.

[Darkstar]

hey i'm only posting what i heard, i don't write the episodes

[Anubis69]

Hey, i know that, i was just posting my opinion in terms of the Hirogen in DS9. Didn't mean to cause offence!

[Missster.Freeman]

That is news to me too; I never knew they had planned to include the Hirogen in DS9. Although, I can't really see how they could get involved in the war. The Hirogen were a bit too far out of the way to become part of the Dominion War. It's more likely the Hirogen would have encountered the Romulans at some time in their history.

Hirogen territory must have included part of the Beta Quadrant, as 7 of 9 contacted the Prometheus at the edge of the Alpha Quadrant heading back to Romulan space.

I agree with Anubis69's post. The Breen were an unexpected, but welcome surprise. It did make sense for the Breen to join the Dominion, as they were to be given control of the Romulan Star Empire and Earth if they (the Dominion axis) won the war.

[the Fifth Race]

the breen were a last minute change for the DS9 story, we knew of them in past episodes, but the way they came into the war was sudden and for me didn't make sense too much, now a species from the delta quadrant would have made sense if they were looking for new prey to kill, the federation being the loosing side may have been seen as unworthy prey but the dominion were powerful an aspect that the hirogen preferred to hunt that stood true when they were made for VOY, but the holodeck idea of hunting was made, a less than exciting idea i think to the original one, they should have come to help win the war instead

The Breen didn't make much sense to me as well, but I did enjoy there brief time in the war. It's obvious TPTB had to come up with someone to be another ally of the Dominion and Cardassians. I did love how the Breen had those wicked looking BC's with organic parts to there ships, not to mention there phase type weapon that wreaked havoc on the Federation and there allies for awhile.

I would have liked to see the Hirogen show up and start hunting Jem Ha'dar instead of the Federation, although the Dominion and the Federation seemed way to powerful numbers and technology wise for the Hirogen to be a threat.

[Darkstar]

The Breen didn't make much sense to me as well, but I did enjoy there brief time in the war. It's obvious TPTB had to come up with someone to be another ally of the Dominion and Cardassians. I did love how the Breen had those wicked looking BC's with organic parts to there ships, not to mention there phase type weapon that wreaked havoc on the Federation and there allies for awhile.

I would have liked to see the Hirogen show up and start hunting Jem Ha'dar instead of the Federation, although the Dominion and the Federation seemed way to powerful numbers and technology wise for the Hirogen to be a threat.

well when i read about the topic in question the episode we first met the Hirogen "message in a bottle" the hirogen did stretch all the way back to the beta quadrant and the idea was that the ship in that episode known as the prometheus was rumoured to be under siege from Jem'hadar and the hirogen were supposed to have met their newset enemy, they were supposed to have ignoored the federation after meeting voyager and saved the day and the prometheus, its a shame that did't play out, the hirogen were supposed to play a part but wern't going to be a major new enemy that we see every week, it would have been great to have a VOY and DS9 cross over.
but the idea did't change too much, we had the hirogen on the fringes of the beta quadrant, we saw the prometheus and the defient class ship that was suppposed to be the actual defient that helped win the day and join with the hirogen against the dominion and the dominion were mentioned in that episode, ah what fun it could have been if it did happen.........


again in season 7 the hirogen did have preference to hunting alpha quadant species on the holodecks but what really got me was that no Jem'hadar were to be seen in that episode but the breen, cardasssians, romulans,klingons,and humans were hunted as prey when the original idea that the ruthlessness of the jem'hadar and the blood thirsty hirogen were going to make them mortal enemies, the ever superior and arrogant jem'hadar idea was going to take a new direction when the hirogen showed up on the scene and hunted them all, niether of them would have ever stopped but that idea was partly the reason the idea never took off, when the war ended and peace was made the hirogen would never have stopped killing and a problem was foreseen so TPTB decided not to include them and used them in VOY instead as hunting VOY, one little ship that did't make sense to me since the delta quadrant was full of prey already enough for them.

[the Fifth Race]

well when i read about the topic in question the episode we first met the Hirogen "message in a bottle" the hirogen did stretch all the way back to the beta quadrant and the idea was that the ship in that episode known as the prometheus was rumoured to be under siege from Jem'hadar and the hirogen were supposed to have met their newset enemy, they were supposed to have ignoored the federation after meeting voyager and saved the day and the prometheus, its a shame that did't play out, the hirogen were supposed to play a part but wern't going to be a major new enemy that we see every week, it would have been great to have a VOY and DS9 cross over.

That would have been very sweet to see some kind of crossover between DS9 and Voyager. The Hirogen would be a great adversary in any scifi genre show. Anubis' super soldiers vs. the Hirogen

again in season 7 the hirogen did have preference to hunting alpha quadant species on the holodecks but what really got me was that no Jem'hadar were to be seen in that episode but the breen, cardasssians, romulans,klingons,and humans were hunted as prey when the original idea that the ruthlessness of the jem'hadar and the blood thirsty hirogen were going to make them mortal enemies, the ever superior and arrogant jem'hadar idea was going to take a new direction when the hirogen showed up on the scene and hunted them all, niether of them would have ever stopped but that idea was partly the reason the idea never took off, when the war ended and peace was made the hirogen would never have stopped killing and a problem was foreseen so TPTB decided not to include them and used them in VOY instead as hunting VOY, one little ship that did't make sense to me since the delta quadrant was full of prey already enough for them.

Interesting stuff brother Darkstar!, was'nt it mentioned (by that Hirogen commander that briefly took over Voyager) that the Hirogen were dying out and that there weren't to many left?.

[Missster.Freeman]

well when i read about the topic in question the episode we first met the Hirogen "message in a bottle" the hirogen did stretch all the way back to the beta quadrant and the idea was that the ship in that episode known as the prometheus was rumoured to be under siege from Jem'hadar and the hirogen were supposed to have met their newset enemy, they were supposed to have ignoored the federation after meeting voyager and saved the day and the prometheus, its a shame that did't play out, the hirogen were supposed to play a part but wern't going to be a major new enemy that we see every week, it would have been great to have a VOY and DS9 cross over.

but the idea did't change too much, we had the hirogen on the fringes of the beta quadrant, we saw the prometheus and the defient class ship that was suppposed to be the actual defient that helped win the day and join with the hirogen against the dominion and the dominion were mentioned in that episode, ah what fun it could have been if it did happen.........

For the Hirogen to get at the Jem’Hadar, they would have to cross the Alpha Quadrant to reach the wormhole, or perhaps the Jem’Hadar had already invaded deep into Federation space. It's possible the Hirogen could’ve opened up another front from the side of the Delta Quadrant that borders the Gamma Quadrant.

It seems like the creators wanted to keep both shows as separate entities, but still acknowledge the existence of the Dominion in “Message in a Bottle” for the sake of continuity. It’s funny though, I don’t recall Voyager being mentioned at anytime in DS9.

There was a crossover in TNG to coincide with the opening episode of DS9 in The Next Generation’s season 6 episode, “Birthright”. The only time we saw Voyager docked at DS9 was the pilot episode “Caretaker”. There was no equivalent ‘passing of the torch’ episode (as far as I know) in Deep Space nine.

again in season 7 the hirogen did have preference to hunting alpha quadant species on the holodecks but what really got me was that no Jem'hadar were to be seen in that episode but the breen, cardasssians, romulans,klingons,and humans were hunted as prey.

The database Janeway gave to the Hirogen was probably an older version before first contact was made with the Dominion.

when the original idea that the ruthlessness of the jem'hadar and the blood thirsty hirogen were going to make them mortal enemies, the ever superior and arrogant jem'hadar idea was going to take a new direction when the hirogen showed up on the scene and hunted them all, niether of them would have ever stopped but that idea was partly the reason the idea never took off, when the war ended and peace was made the hirogen would never have stopped killing and a problem was foreseen so TPTB decided not to include them and used them in VOY instead as hunting VOY, one little ship that did't make sense to me since the delta quadrant was full of prey already enough for them.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head there. The writers would have to include the Hirogen regularly in DS9 stories if they got involved in the Dominion war. As I said previously, the writers wanted to keep the premise of Voyager as a lone Federation crew stranded in a remote part of the galaxy. Too much contact with the Alpha Quadrant would've taken the essence away from the show.

Nice one Darkstar. You must've put a bit of thought into your post.

[Missster.Freeman]

Interesting stuff brother Darkstar!, was'nt it mentioned (by that Hirogen commander that briefly took over Voyager) that the Hirogen were dying out and that there weren't to many left?.

You're right bro. The Hirogen are pretty much a nomadic species, only coming together when there's a big hunt on. If I recall correctly, the Hirogen have been a space-faring species for thousands of years. Did Seven of Nine not mention that their relay system was a few millennia old?

[HirogenGater]

Wow, this is all news to me. Would have been cool to see VOY/DS9 crossovers.

[Darkstar]

i think that VOY did rely a little on past shows somewhat, the idea of the Marquis and the cardassians was used season 1,2and 5 and 7 in various ideas, i don't think it relied too much and it was great to see some continuity between DS9 and VOY just like TNG was to DS9 in "birthright" and the episode of DS9 "emissary" with the enterprise and picard as sisko's adversary as the borg who killed his wife.
the fact that VOY had the Marquis would at some point needed to point back at DS9 as that was a show that dealt with the death of the marquis at the hands of the Dominion and ran through to VOY when they got a message from earth and season 5 "extreme meassures" where TPTB had to tackle the issue of the dead marquis when B'lanna almost let it kill her

[Darkstar]

That would have been very sweet to see some kind of crossover between DS9 and Voyager. The Hirogen would be a great adversary in any scifi genre show. Anubis' super soldiers vs. the Hirogen



Interesting stuff brother Darkstar!, was'nt it mentioned (by that Hirogen commander that briefly took over Voyager) that the Hirogen were dying out and that there weren't to many left?.

i think that the fact the Hirogen were a very old race was the reason behind the original idea that they span all over the galaxy, if you take for example the telaxian or the kazon they were newer to space travel and did't have the chance to go far and wide, the fact that hirogen hunted far and wide was another reason they span so far.

also another fact which is trivial and im not sure it has any truth but in the season 5 episode TPTB wanted to have a re-occuring presence of the hirogen that we saw in season 6 and 7, the episode "bliss" was rumoured to feature the hirgoen as the hunters trapped inside the gigantic lifeform, the hirogen were supposed to have hunted the creature but underestimated the hold the creature had on aliens with its mind game powers, voyager and a few if not one hirogen ship was supposed to be trapped inside, wether that is true i don't know but it wasen't as interresting as having them in DS9!!!

TPTB decided to include them in season 6 and 7 episodes "tsunkatsi" and the two part about hunting the holograms.


i read about both hirogen ideas in a magazine a few years ago in 2001, inside the article featured the hirogen and the ideas that TPTB played around with but they never fell through, i can't remember the name of the magazine but i do wish i had kept a hold of it, it was very interesting read

[the Fifth Race]

You're right bro. The Hirogen are pretty much a nomadic species, only coming together when there's a big hunt on. If I recall correctly, the Hirogen have been a space-faring species for thousands of years. Did Seven of Nine not mention that their relay system was a few millennia old?

She did mention that (7 of 9). The more I think about it and if I remember right (haven't watched VOY is years) the Hirogen commander also talked about how there used to be a lot more Hirogen but when a hunt is called less and less Hirogen showed up if any at all. They tried to portray the Hirogen as a dying race, that's why the Hirogen commander looked at the Holo-deck as a savior for the race because Hirogen casualties would diminish drastically (unless they turn off the safeties of the Holo-deck, which proved to be a big mistake in said episodes).