Deep Space 9 Superior

[jelgate]

With as many ships as we saw traveling through time in VOY and ENT I think a show actually following a ship from one of those timelines would be really cool. Might be interesting to cameo a few previous series in the process too!

Just as long as its not a ship that travels through time every episode. I take the Janeway approach to time travel

[USS Defiant]

That was true in seasons 4 & 5 of DS9, although TPTB with DS9 worked around it and still created some of the best scifi ever done period. Now when Paramount green-lighted seasons 6 & 7 of DS9 they doubled the special FX budget (which showed quite nicely) on top of raises for most of the main characters (except of course it wasn't enough for Terry Farrell, so we got the incredibly talented Nicole deBoer as Ezri Dax in season 7 as a great by the fly replacement). In the end - Paramount did right by all the Trek series (except for maybe ENT).

I completely agree. Paramount could have just counted there money after the success of TNG and the Star Trek Movie franchise. But they decided to take chances with shows like DS9 and VOY, which in the end both turned out to be huge.

And hopefully one day in the not to distant future, Paramount will green-light another new Star Trek series for television. It will be called Future Trek. Remember this day when I called it years in advance. LOL

I have no doubt that Paramount will bring back Trek to television in the near future, especially considering the popularity and money Star Trek XI brought in. Paramount has given the ok for 2 more Trek movies using essentially the same cast and crew they did with Star Trek XI - My guess would be that Paramount would most likely bring back a new television series after Star Trek XIII comes out probably around 2015.

[SpinningChevron]

Sorry to go off on a tangent but I just watched the episode Necessary Evil and maybe I missed something but did Odo let Major Kira away with murder. In the end Kira tells Odo the truth that she was sent to watch Vaatrik and after he catches her she has to kill him because he was a collaborator. Im not overly familiar with the ins and out of law but I assume even if 5 years have passed you will still be charged with the murder just the same as if you did it 5 hours ago, so why did Odo do nothing?

[Cold Fuzz]

Sorry to go off on a tangent but I just watched the episode Necessary Evil and maybe I missed something but did Odo let Major Kira away with murder. In the end Kira tells Odo the truth that she was sent to watch Vaatrik and after he catches her she has to kill him because he was a collaborator. Im not overly familiar with the ins and out of law but I assume even if 5 years have passed you will still be charged with the murder just the same as if you did it 5 hours ago, so why did Odo do nothing?

Ah, Necessary Evil. One of my favorite all-time DS9 episodes, it's wonderfully thought-provoking.

It could be argued that there were serious extenuating circumstances, like Vaatrik and his wife being collaborators and the fact that as collaborators, Vaatrik and his wife were responsible for Bajoran suffering and deaths, whether directly or indirectly. Profiting from your neighbor's suffering isn't going to win you any friends. The Occupation was a moral quagmire for anyone getting involved in it—and even for those who weren't involved in it. Starfleet couldn't get involved because of the Prime Directive (), and yet they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Cardassians had a cruel and sadistic regime who would do what they could to break the Bajorans. And yet, they did nothing to help the Bajorans during the Occupation—at least not officially. This was a horribly dubious stance from the Bajorans' point of view. Without help from a major external power like the Federation, the Bajorans had to resort to extreme measures to drive out the Cardassians.

Now some other Bajoran collaborators were exiled to Cardassia instead of imprisoned or killed. I get the feeling that the Shakaar and the other resistance cells knew Vaatrik and his wife were serious undesirables if their activities warranted an assassination.

So is it murder? If one makes the argument that there was war on Bajor, then the answer could be no. But if the circumstances were different? Hell yes, it was murder—a well-calculated hit.

Here's a paradigm worth thinking about: In World War II, the Dutch and French Resistance movements knew very well who the Nazi collaborators were on their turf. When places like Eindhoven, Nijmegen, Tours, or Caen were liberated by the Allies, the male Nazi collaborators were...eliminated very quickly. There were virtually no questions asked by either the Allies or the rightful governments running those cities whether such actions were right or wrong. Some of the women collaborators were shot too but some were humiliated and driven out of town. Again, no questions were asked.

So was it really murder, whether in the Netherlands, France, or on Bajor? Some wonderful grey area there...

Edit: There isn't a statute of limitation on homicides. If Odo ran things like straight law enforcement today he'd treat it as reviving a cold case and going from there. However, there's the big quandary of whether or not he or the Bajoran government would view this as murder since this was a resistance operation.

[the Fifth Race]

Ah, Necessary Evil. One of my favorite all-time DS9 episodes, it's wonderfully thought-provoking.

Indeed brother Fuzz. Necessary Evil is one of my all-time favorite scifi episodes from any series period (it's also one of the best made and acted episodes from any scifi series as well). It's just so well made!.

It was interesting to see Odo's investigating techniques, which highlighted his intelligence, patience, and thoroughness extremely well. The flashbacks plausibly and interestingly document the way Odo met Kira, Dukat, and Quark all within the same investigation, it's just so brilliantly written and acted.

Spoiler:

It could be argued that there were serious extenuating circumstances, like Vaatrik and his wife being collaborators and the fact that as collaborators, Vaatrik and his wife were responsible for Bajoran suffering and deaths, whether directly or indirectly. Profiting from your neighbor's suffering isn't going to win you any friends. The Occupation was a moral quagmire for anyone getting involved in it—and even for those who weren't involved in it. Starfleet couldn't get involved because of the Prime Directive (), and yet they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Cardassians had a cruel and sadistic regime who would do what they could to break the Bajorans. And yet, they did nothing to help the Bajorans during the Occupation—at least not officially. This was a horribly dubious stance from the Bajorans' point of view. Without help from a major external power like the Federation, the Bajorans had to resort to extreme measures to drive out the Cardassians.

Now some other Bajoran collaborators were exiled to Cardassia instead of imprisoned or killed. I get the feeling that the Shakaar and the other resistance cells knew Vaatrik and his wife were serious undesirables if their activities warranted an assassination.

So is it murder? If one makes the argument that there was war on Bajor, then the answer could be no. But if the circumstances were different? Hell yes, it was murder—a well-calculated hit.

Here's a paradigm worth thinking about: In World War II, the Dutch and French Resistance movements knew very well who the Nazi collaborators were on their turf. When places like Eindhoven, Nijmegen, Tours, or Caen were liberated by the Allies, the male Nazi collaborators were...eliminated very quickly. There were virtually no questions asked by either the Allies or the rightful governments running those cities whether such actions were right or wrong. Some of the women collaborators were shot too but some were humiliated and driven out of town. Again, no questions were asked.

So was it really murder, whether in the Netherlands, France, or on Bajor? Some wonderful grey area there...

Edit: There isn't a statute of limitation on homicides. If Odo ran things like straight law enforcement today he'd treat it as reviving a cold case and going from there. However, there's the big quandary of whether or not he or the Bajoran government would view this as murder since this was a resistance operation

Well said homeboy.

[Spimman]

Just as long as its not a ship that travels through time every episode. I take the Janeway approach to time travel

True, we don't need a DW type Star Trek. Maybe something along the lines of the first Time Ship ever sent out, exploring time and/or maybe using the ship to jump between galaxies.

[SpinningChevron]

Ah, Necessary Evil. One of my favorite all-time DS9 episodes, it's wonderfully thought-provoking.

It could be argued that there were serious extenuating circumstances, like Vaatrik and his wife being collaborators and the fact that as collaborators, Vaatrik and his wife were responsible for Bajoran suffering and deaths, whether directly or indirectly. Profiting from your neighbor's suffering isn't going to win you any friends. The Occupation was a moral quagmire for anyone getting involved in it—and even for those who weren't involved in it. Starfleet couldn't get involved because of the Prime Directive (), and yet they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Cardassians had a cruel and sadistic regime who would do what they could to break the Bajorans. And yet, they did nothing to help the Bajorans during the Occupation—at least not officially. This was a horribly dubious stance from the Bajorans' point of view. Without help from a major external power like the Federation, the Bajorans had to resort to extreme measures to drive out the Cardassians.

Now some other Bajoran collaborators were exiled to Cardassia instead of imprisoned or killed. I get the feeling that the Shakaar and the other resistance cells knew Vaatrik and his wife were serious undesirables if their activities warranted an assassination.

So is it murder? If one makes the argument that there was war on Bajor, then the answer could be no. But if the circumstances were different? Hell yes, it was murder—a well-calculated hit.

Here's a paradigm worth thinking about: In World War II, the Dutch and French Resistance movements knew very well who the Nazi collaborators were on their turf. When places like Eindhoven, Nijmegen, Tours, or Caen were liberated by the Allies, the male Nazi collaborators were...eliminated very quickly. There were virtually no questions asked by either the Allies or the rightful governments running those cities whether such actions were right or wrong. Some of the women collaborators were shot too but some were humiliated and driven out of town. Again, no questions were asked.

So was it really murder, whether in the Netherlands, France, or on Bajor? Some wonderful grey area there...

Edit: There isn't a statute of limitation on homicides. If Odo ran things like straight law enforcement today he'd treat it as reviving a cold case and going from there. However, there's the big quandary of whether or not he or the Bajoran government would view this as murder since this was a resistance operation.

Thank you, thats a great well thought out answer. I love the episode myself I just thought that seemed a bit odd for Odo who is normally very unbiased but Terok Nor was a warzone as long as the Cardassians occupied Bajor so things like that were going to happen, I wanted to green you for it but it says something about spreading green around first


EDIT: Wait... I accidently put the response into quotes, how do I put it into spoiler tags? Why do these little things always confuse me on forums?

[jelgate]

Thank you, thats a great well thought out answer. I love the episode myself I just thought that seemed a bit odd for Odo who is normally very unbiased but Terok Nor was a warzone as long as the Cardassians occupied Bajor so things like that were going to happen, I wanted to green you for it but it says something about spreading green around first


EDIT: Wait... I accidently put the response into quotes, how do I put it into spoiler tags? Why do these little things always confuse me on forums?

[SPOILERS][SPOILERS]

Put a / between the [ and S of the second tag. The information between the two tags. As for the episode itself the Bajorans would have given Kira a slap on the wrist for killing collabrators. They Ilvian Proclamation pretty much shows that.

[Giantevilhead]

The Darkness and the Light is another episode that does a great job of dealing with Kira's terrorist past.

Also, Kira explains the how a resistance movement works quite well in "When it Rains:"

ODO: The weapons depot on Adarak Prime is protected by only a single garrison and there's a weakness in their perimeter defenses. A small group could infiltrate the compound and
RUSOT: Adarak Prime is defended by a Cardassian garrison.
ODO: That's correct.
SESKAL: You expect us to attack our own people?
KIRA: If necessary, yes.
RUSOT: That's out of the question.
DAMAR: I agree. We'll limit ourselves to targets defended by the Jem'Hadar and the Breen.
KIRA: Believe me, I understand how you feel. During the occupation, I didn't want to attack any facility that had a Bajoran working in it. But I did it. Because they were collaborators. They were working with the enemy.
RUSOT: We're not Bajorans. We don't kill our own.
KIRA: Well then you might as well just give up right now. Because the minute that the Dominion realizes that you will not attack your own people, they will station a Cardassian at every base they have.
ODO: She's right. The Founders won't hesitate to play your own people against you.
KIRA: Anyone who's not fighting with you, is fighting against you.

[USS Defiant]

The Dogs of War

This episode revolves around Zek's announcement of retirement and the fact Zek intends to name Quark the next Nagus. Quark is of course overjoyed. He looks forward to a new life of unending wealth and indulgence. His mischievous planning begins. About this time, Brunt shows up. I must admit I laughed when Brunt instantly recited Rule of Acquisition number whatever: "It's never too early to suck up to the boss." Subsequently, Quark comes to realize how out of touch he has become with Ferengi society the past couple years. The entire social structure has changed under Zek and Ishka's new initiatives, and now we have a Ferenginar replete with social services, taxes, and regulated trade. None of this is remotely groundbreaking drama, but I was surprised at how unannoying it was compared to the average Ferengi episode. Perhaps the jokes were a little lower-key than most Ferengi shows, and I'm sure the limited screen time for Zek and Ishka helped matters as well. This storyline was actually relatively pleasant.

Of course, the joke upon the joke is that the whole notion of Quark becoming Nagus was a misunderstanding; it's Rom who Zek planned to make Nagus--which seems somewhat fitting under the notion that "a new Ferenginar needs a new type of Nagus." And besides, Mom always liked Rom best. (Well, maybe not overall, but in certain ways.)

As closure for Quark, it seems very appropriate. He's always been the type who sticks by his guns, and if it means being the last Ferengi to hold onto a dying system he believes in, so be it. Armin Shimerman pulls off this role with great adeptness, walking the line separating comedy and genuine dramatic urgency in a way that proves both amusing and sincere.

[USS Defiant]

The Darkness and the Light is another episode that does a great job of dealing with Kira's terrorist past.

Great quote - What I like most about this episode was that the tough as nails Kira we got in the earlier seasons is back (not the watered-down, passive, underutilized Major Kira from fourth season). Kira is among the strongest and best characters on the show, and most definitely one of my favorite characters from any scifi show.

[Saquist]

[SPOILERS][SPOILERS]

Put a / between the [ and S of the second tag. The information between the two tags. As for the episode itself the Bajorans would have given Kira a slap on the wrist for killing collabrators. They Ilvian Proclamation pretty much shows that.

Something went wrong here....

[SpinningChevron]

[SPOILERS][SPOILERS]

Spoiler:

Put a / between the [ and S of the second tag. The information between the two tags. As for the episode itself the Bajorans would have given Kira a slap on the wrist for killing collabrators. They Ilvian Proclamation pretty much shows that.

Thank you, i'm gonna try the spoiler thing now so wish me luck

edit: hey it worked

[Giantevilhead]

The Dogs of War

This episode revolves around Zek's announcement of retirement and the fact Zek intends to name Quark the next Nagus. Quark is of course overjoyed. He looks forward to a new life of unending wealth and indulgence. His mischievous planning begins. About this time, Brunt shows up. I must admit I laughed when Brunt instantly recited Rule of Acquisition number whatever: "It's never too early to suck up to the boss." Subsequently, Quark comes to realize how out of touch he has become with Ferengi society the past couple years. The entire social structure has changed under Zek and Ishka's new initiatives, and now we have a Ferenginar replete with social services, taxes, and regulated trade. None of this is remotely groundbreaking drama, but I was surprised at how unannoying it was compared to the average Ferengi episode. Perhaps the jokes were a little lower-key than most Ferengi shows, and I'm sure the limited screen time for Zek and Ishka helped matters as well. This storyline was actually relatively pleasant.

Of course, the joke upon the joke is that the whole notion of Quark becoming Nagus was a misunderstanding; it's Rom who Zek planned to make Nagus--which seems somewhat fitting under the notion that "a new Ferenginar needs a new type of Nagus." And besides, Mom always liked Rom best. (Well, maybe not overall, but in certain ways.)

As closure for Quark, it seems very appropriate. He's always been the type who sticks by his guns, and if it means being the last Ferengi to hold onto a dying system he believes in, so be it. Armin Shimerman pulls off this role with great adeptness, walking the line separating comedy and genuine dramatic urgency in a way that proves both amusing and sincere.

"I won't preside over the demise of Ferengi civilization! ... The line has to be drawn here! This far, and no further!" - Quark

Most hilarious line in the episode. The way Quark delivers it was just so perfect.


"Citizens of Cardassia, hear me! The Dominion told you that the rebellion has been crushed. What you have seen here today proves that that is yet another lie. Our fight for freedom continues! But it will take place here in the streets. I call on Cardassians everywhere to rise up, rise up and join me! I need you to be my army! If we stand together, nothing can oppose us. Freedom is ours for the taking!" - Damar

Best line in the episode. Damar is a true leader.

[Cold Fuzz]

It's based on interviews with the cast and crew of DS9 and Voyager. Robert Beltran has said publicly how Voyager's budget was low in the early seasons because of DS9.

Also, television today is different from television back when DS9 and Voyager were on, not to mention the special circumstances that DS9 and Voyager were under. It's not often that two series of the same franchise are on television at the same time. Not only that but DS9 and Voyager weren't on the same network. DS9 was syndicated and Voyager was on UPN. In some places, DS9 was even aired against Voyager. Considering the situation, Paramount eventually invested more money into Voyager since it led to greater returns.

Plus people tend to underestimate how much seemingly trivial behind the scenes things can affect shows.

I remember some of those interviews, namely how Beltran was irked about how VOY consistently got less money than DS9, and how it felt like VOY was being treated as the "ugly stepsister" of Trek. Unfortunately, that's the treatment that ENT got for the first 2 seasons, and it got cancelled because of it.

The Darkness and the Light is another episode that does a great job of dealing with Kira's terrorist past.

The Darkness and the Light is another of my favorite all-time DS9 episodes. It's not a coincidence that Kira is again the central focus of the episode.