The Depths (411)

[meredithchandler73]

who or what is grendel's children?

Grendel is a character in the story Beowulf. As I mentioned in a previous post, my theory is that Tesla found Dr. Moran (so proud of having published a paper on the search for Grendel's children) and would have thought her perfect to work under him at SCIU. He could encourage her searches for mythical creatures and would stay out of the Sanctuary's hair.

Anyway...as I'm rewatching this episode again - I'm wondering about the SCIU/Sanctuary connections. At the beginning, Henry was able to get the SCIU information via Tesla's "little leftover presents" in the computer, so would Nikola be tracking the Sanctuary's movements in the same way? And Moran's statement "he said you'd say that" - is that reference also to Nikola and that they knew the Sanctuary team was coming?

I actually thought the "He said you'd say that" comment was simply about Grendel's children. I can see Dr. Moran and Tesla having a conversation about her work and how Magnus will tell her Grendel's children don't exist, maybe to keep her from discovering an abnormal. Helen Magnus was a pioneer in the realm of abnormals and it makes sense that SCIU would prepare their teams for run-ins with Helen and the Sanctuary. It never occurred to me that Nikola might actually be tracking the Sanctuary's movements.

[Skydiver]

I'm almost thinking that Will and Magnus' WORK relationship deserves its own thread to be honest.

I agree totally that someone needs to call Helen on her actions. She's said as much, how used she is to doing and getting her own way. She makes decisions and goes with it and that's that. ANd she's even said herself that she's made mistakes and knows it but has to live with it.

Will is supposed to call her on that stuff. That's his role, to be her antagonist part of the time.

HOWEVER

Helen is almost 300 years old. She possesses vast amounts of knowledge and experience. She's formidable and respected and even feared.

And we got this 30 something man that dresses and acts like a teenager part of the time, very immature, very short sighted, rather petulant and pissy who's expected to call her on his actions????

what we have is a repeat of the Cameron Mitchell/Sam Carter scenario, but with a twist. We have the immature - to appeal to the youthful crowd - male being put in a position of authority over the mature and experienced female. (So he's not quite her boss, however equal????? really?)

Declan or Henry are better equals to be honest. Biggie would be a wonderful one, because he dont take no crud from her and questions her.

IMHO, they're trying to make Will too much. He can't be the everyman focusing on youthful appeal AND be the voice of reason for a woman that's centuries old. He just can't be all they want him to be, so he's an uneven mess from one episode to the next.

[jckfan55]

'you turn your back on them when they don’t live up to your standards' Another one, what the HELL..

/endrant

YEah, I didn't get that remark either.

To me that isn't true at all. Anyone remember Nikola Tesla? The guy who always gets in trouble somehow and needs Magnus to save his ass. Who was the one trying to convince Magnus to ignore Tesla's distress call again in Trail of Blood? Oh right, it was Will.

No matter what Tesla does Magnus will always help him just because they've known each other for such a long time, share history and have gone through so much together that it's hard not to care about each other. And she's well aware of his intentions of trying to take over the world or whatever scheme he has, but she's never turned her back on him.

She hasn't turned her back on Will despite his offensive behavior lately; she took Henry in when she found him abandoned by his parents knowing he was an abnormal and might have a hard time adjusting to the world as he grew up; she didn't turn her back on Ashley, not once even after she'd been turned and in the end she made the hardest decision anyone can ever make for the sake of the Sanctuary, all abnormals and indirectly all of humanity too; she never stopped trying to help Druitt, despite the heartache he'd caused her and the evil he's done; she allowed Kate to stay at the Sanctuary despite her (previous) involvement with The Cabal and gave her a second chance at a new life; she has helped Biggie many times in the 50 years they've known each other, she refused to believe he'd betray her and what the Sanctuary stands for and did everything she could to help him find his way again...

And I'm sure there are some people I forgot to mention.

Well said.

I get the sense that while Magnus has people around her, she kind of stands herself apart from them. With the exception of Biggie, she doesn't really have anyone to look after her when she needs it

perhaps that's what the writers were *trying* to get at, but imho, the way Will tried to address it didn't come off as a friend but as a spoiled teenager.

I think she hasn't really had a TRUE friend since the Five disbanded, and James died. James fit the bill perfectly. He was by her side in everything, and he wasn't so cowed by her very presence that he wouldn't call her out on her bullsh**. But the bond they shared survived over a century of hardship. I bet in many ways it felt like it was them against the world. And now Magnus is back in that position, but she doesn't have a friend like James to have her back.

Her relationship with James was clearly one of equals. Even back at the turn of the century.

[jckfan55]

IMHO, they're trying to make Will too much. He can't be the everyman focusing on youthful appeal AND be the voice of reason for a woman that's centuries old. He just can't be all they want him to be, so he's an uneven mess from one episode to the next.

good point.

[hisg1fans]

First episode I've really liked in a while. Good abnormal, good mystery, good adventure, good talk between Helen and Will. Could have done without the Henry bits, but they were pretty funny. How many times can a guy blow himself up inventing the same weapon? Ask Henry.

[MasySyma]

Yet another bad episode in a weak season. Sigh.

I hate this type of episode:
Season 1: Helen and Will get stuck in a sub = a horrible episode.
Season 2: Helen and Will get stuck in a downed chopper = really horrible episode.
Season 3: Helen and Will get stuck in a time bubble = semi-boring epsiode
Season 4: Helen and Will get stuck in a cave in = second worst episode all season.

All of these horrid things are supposed to be filled with the character development we don't get the rest of the time, and it never works. They come across as cheap televised-rubbish. Good writing can make up for a low budget, but nothing can save this week's foray into Helen the omnipotent and Will the brat/man-child.

I also want to know when Helen Magnus became Samantha Carter because Helen is not a doormat. Sam is. If I wanted to watch SG1, I will, but I agree that this season has been the let's break the mythology of season 9 with Sam/Cam angst thrown in, and I don't want to see it again.

Having also just read some Druitt spoilers that are upsetting, see the interview with the actor in the announcement thread if interested, I am so annoyed at this show right now.

I am not willing to buy this season for only one really good episode. This season is such a let down.

[majorsal]

Personally, I'd like to see Helen stranded alone...& I don't mean like in Monsoon but alone alone! Or with Tesla or John.

ooh... that idea of helen alone brings up wonderful images for an ep or fic!

[majorsal]

Im sorry some more will bashing.

O MAH GAWD.
I understand SOME of his points. I do.
But he's not offering an alternative, hes not having an adult discussion about things.
He's really just behaving like a child! Im sorry. Even though his point in questioning her actions might be valid. The way he does it seems only to be to hurt her feelings. Which is a real grown up thing to do.. I mean 'You did the right thing. I still get to hate you for it' comment .. TEHHELL
Or the 'I only get one set of days. I think you need to appreciate what it means if I give them all to you' She already told him several times she DOES appreciate that. And if hes SO fed up with it, why doesn't he just leave? She's not forcing him to stay.
'you turn your back on them when they don’t live up to your standards' Another one, what the HELL..

Ok in the end I did think it was a great ep. I do love the Helen/Will stranded eps.
But will has SERIOUSLY got to knock it off.

/endrant

it really seems to me that wil's main point of ire is that helen won't tell him everything, and this is not just about her 113 year hiatis, but stuff that's been happening between them for a while. maybe the 113 year thinger is the final straw for him...

but why should he be told everything? even if he were her 'partner', he doesn't have to be told all her secrets.

no matter how the writers have intended for this to come off, i don't think it's working. maybe it's not just the writing, maybe it's robin's interpretation? all i know is i don't *feel* leadership vibes from him. i don't feel like following him, which is what you need (to follow them into the abyss if necessary) with real leadership. i'd follow kate's intuition before wil's...

but if this is part of the plan of the writers, to have helen and wil at odds with one another... that's working!

[fems]

it really seems to me that wil's main point of ire is that helen won't tell him everything, and this is not just about her 113 year hiatis, but stuff that's been happening between them for a while. maybe the 113 year thinger is the final straw for him...

but why should he be told everything? even if he were her 'partner', he doesn't have to be told all her secrets.

I think he'd probably need an entire lifetime to get caught up on everything she knows and has experienced... And we all know he only has one!

[majorsal]

The first part of his argument, not letting people get close because she's just going to lose them - that's possible. We don't know how close she gets to people, especially later in life after she has seen so many colleagues, friends and lovers die. (She has a line about that in Requiem.) But turning her back on people when they don't live up to her standards??? Where does that come from? Bringing up Druitt is just plain STUPID. She turned her back on him because he became a murderer. When did she turn her back on Griffin or Watson? Although Helen wasn't keeping in close touch, Watson was running the London Sanctuary all this time. And when the hell did she turn her back on Ashley?!?!? So his one comment that may have root in the truth - Helen not letting people get close to her - gets lost amid these ridiculous accusations.

what if this isn't the real wil? or he's been compromised? i say this b/c his accusations really *don't* make sense!

or he's hurt and angry, and then accusations can become riduculous...

[majorsal]

You make some valid points, but I think doing the job they do that Magnus needs to keep that distance from them. Will seems to be forgetting that she took him on as a protege, someone to teach the ropes and carry on with her work in case she becomes incapable and/or dies. Instead he sees it as a great adventure with all his friends; not his colleagues or even superiors and for the last two seasons he doesn't seem to view Magnus as his boss anymore, let alone his mentor.

For a mentor - especially a woman - raised in the Victorian Era it probably seems inappropriate to become too close and friendly with said protege. Her role model is probably her father, who while she cares a great deal for him she isn't as close with as a modern day father and daughter would be; she is very respectful towards him and seems to stick to etiquette most of the time regarding interactions and conversations.

In her general behavior Magnus is always a bit more reserved towards others, which I mostly attribute to her upbringing. You can see she loosens up a bit with her old friends from college (The Five and even Adam).

I also think she's seen a lot of people come and go (professionally and of course personally) throughout her life. Watson was her equal (yeah, that are the requirements to be her partner, Will) and close friend, who helped her build the Sanctuary and eventually took on the UK Sanctuary. She didn't just share her views with him but they also shared a big deal of history, from the early days at Oxford and the blood experiments and subsequent 'transformations' to fighting side by side in WWII (and probably WWI too).

Magnus and Watson were on equal footing from the get-go, but Will is her protege; not her new BFF, partner or equal in any way. He's there to learn from her and maybe as a fresh pair of eyes to call her on some of her decisions.

In an organization like the Sanctuary (Network) a chain of command if you will is necessary and Will just fails to grasp that concept. You can tell from his behavior towards the rest of the gang (Biggie, Kate, Henry and sometimes even Declan); he just wants to hang, joke around, go on an adventure every now and then, and be one of the cool kids. I think his behavior towards Magnus and his expectation that she shares everything with him and be his equal (or maybe him wanting to be her equal) is also very telling. Magnus and the rest of the gang do understand that there need to be boundaries; she can't be their BFF and order them around or make life and death decisions (with their lives or others') the next moment. It just doesn't work like that!

In private moments though you can see she lets the others in a bit, share their pain, sympathize or just give (motherly/mentorly) advice. Just not in public. We've seen her have her moments with Biggie, Henry, Will himself and even Kate.

i'm also thinking about it from a military ranking pov. there's NO way that someone could move up the ranks in 4 years to go from second to co-leading, like wil seems to want helen to do. *time* can season a soldier, teach them lessons and give them wisdom... wil *needs* more time. i don't believe he deserves to be 'partners' with helen, not for a long, long time. i can think of a lot of other ppl that should get that privilege first...

[majorsal]

But once he started taking on responsibility, and Ashley wasn't around to cut him down to size every once and a while, the others deferred to him (as they were supposed to) and he didn't know what to do with himself. And now that I think about it, that might be part of why he's so adamant about the whole secrets thing...

I mean, I'm getting a little side-tracked now, but bear with me. If he's supposed to take over for her, and he's supposed to be in charge of everyone, he HAS to feel the need to be completely informed. I mean, imagine if Magnus was killed in that cavern. Will would be forced to become commanding general in a war he didn't start. And if he's picked up on the fact she has a secret agenda, he would be the leader without knowing what she'd intended to do.

In a way, I bet it feels like she's setting him up for failure.

Sure, she probably doesn't mean for it to feel like that, and things have to play out the way they need to, but still. That might be where he's coming from.

when you think about it like that, it does make sense. so he needs to talk to helen, state it just like that to her, instead of letting his foot-stomping feelings take over.

but i still think he needs more time to season and learn. you can't go from chevron guy ~ captain ~ general in 4 years.

[majorsal]

First episode I've really liked in a while. Good abnormal, good mystery, good adventure, good talk between Helen and Will. Could have done without the Henry bits, but they were pretty funny. How many times can a guy blow himself up inventing the same weapon? Ask Henry.

speaking of henry...

did anyone else get some vibes of doom with henry's video taping message to his child? like... henry will eventually die in the series, and we'll see helen with the little child on her knee, showing the kid 'dad'...

there really is a lot of good characters killed off on this show, so i'm just throwing that out there.

~damian/martin... kill off helen, and suffer the wrath of BILLIONS of fans...

[fems]

speaking of henry...

did anyone else get some vibes of doom with henry's video taping message to his child? like... henry will eventually die in the series, and we'll see helen with the little child on her knee, showing the kid 'dad'...

there really is a lot of good characters killed off on this show, so i'm just throwing that out there.

~damian/martin... kill off helen, and suffer the wrath of BILLIONS of fans...

I guess you could interpret it that way... I saw it more of a precaution and maybe an explanation as how and where Henry and Erika are going to raise their HAPlet! I prefer to interpret it as her staying in England while he stays with the Sanctuary, but he'll make lots of visits (and she will too) and send lots of vids.

[jckfan55]

s

did anyone else get some vibes of doom with henry's video taping message to his child? like... henry will eventually die in the series, and we'll see helen with the little child on her knee, showing the kid 'dad'...

aack!