Valar Morghulis (210)

[Gen. Chris]

I didn't see anything, luckily. I saw the incomplete spoiler tag and immediately shut my eyes and scrolled down to reply. So no harm done


edit: Did Stannis truly see something in the flames, or was he being hypnotized? Or both? I couldn't tell...

[Cold Fuzz]

I didn't see anything, luckily. I saw the incomplete spoiler tag and immediately shut my eyes and scrolled down to reply. So no harm done


edit: Did Stannis truly see something in the flames, or was he being hypnotized? Or both? I couldn't tell...

Honestly, I'm not sure. I think it's a little bit of both. With Melisandre, she could glamour someone quite easily, even Stannis. Since we're not shown what Stannis saw, we're left to our own interpretation as to what he saw in the flames. I personally don't trust Melisandre, her religion, or whatever agenda she's following so I personally lean towards her giving him a false vision and then perhaps influencing him ever-so-slightly to be more pliable to her suggestions.

[Skydiver]

Ya know....it's like looking at the clouds....if you look hard enough you'll see anything you want. IMHO, Melisandre's manipulation coupled with his desperation of 'i lost, how could I lose???????'

If she'd had him convinced that the red god was supporting him and then he failed, gotta have an excuse, because if 'god' didn't give him the victory why???? She's gotta scramble to keep her hold on him, and he's desperate to find an excuse to avoid facing his defeat.

[magictrick]

Ya know....it's like looking at the clouds....if you look hard enough you'll see anything you want. IMHO, Melisandre's manipulation coupled with his desperation of 'i lost, how could I lose???????'

If she'd had him convinced that the red god was supporting him and then he failed, gotta have an excuse, because if 'god' didn't give him the victory why???? She's gotta scramble to keep her hold on him, and he's desperate to find an excuse to avoid facing his defeat.

Spoiler:

Based on what happens after this I think she truly does believe in Stannis. He really perseveres and pulls together his army. Also if I recall her visions do prove "true", especially what happens with Jon later on. It would help to learn more about her intentions if she had more than one POV chapter.

[Ukko]

So was Xaro just a blagger who tricked everyone with the help of warlocks, or is there something more sinister to the wealth of Qarth and its inhabitants/leaders?

I swear, if the answer is a big spoiler i'll cry. I cant afford to buy the books at the moment.

[Brother Freyr]

Oh, and what happened to Ghost, is he supposed to be missing. I don't remember the last time I saw that direwolf

Good question! I miss Ghost, and he's important to helping Jon ...

Spoiler:

... gain (semi)acceptance among the wildlings.

Was it unclear to anyone that Qorin Halfhand ordered Jon to kill him? I mean, in the book it was very explicit, but it seemed only implied in the show. Maybe I missed it. I'd have a much lesser opinion of Jon if I thought that he killed Qorin out of anger.

I'm glad we got a chance to see the dragons up close. We saw Drogon in detail earlier in the season and seeing Viserion and Rhaegal up close was great.

Shouldn't the dragons be growing larger?

[Brother Freyr]

So was Xaro just a blagger who tricked everyone with the help of warlocks, or is there something more sinister to the wealth of Qarth and its inhabitants/leaders?

No one knows! That plot point isn't in the book. I mean, no empty vault. No Doreah in Xaro's bed. And no locking them inside the vault.

[Ukko]

No one knows! That plot point isn't in the book. I mean, no empty vault. No Doreah in Xaro's bed. And no locking them inside the vault.

Good news, i wont be spoiled then. Bad news, i'll probably be left scratching my head about it forever.

I have to wonder though, if some of the deviations from the books (not being a reader, i dont how much of a deviation certain parts are...or what they are) are things that GRRM couldnt (either due to length, his editor or just not "fitting" with the book narrative) put into his books. I cant imagine him allowing HBO to change things willy nilly or to radically alter his world beyond recognition.

[magictrick]

I have to wonder though, if some of the deviations from the books (not being a reader, i dont how much of a deviation certain parts are...or what they are) are things that GRRM couldnt (either due to length, his editor or just not "fitting" with the book narrative) put into his books. I cant imagine him allowing HBO to change things willy nilly or to radically alter his world beyond recognition.

There haven't been many deviations, as most of the major plot points have remained the same. The only big change has been with Dany's story line. What you saw with the temple of the undying and the stolen dragons was not in the books. It actually seems to be a major gripe with a lot of book readers who didn't think the scenes did justice to what GRRM had written. The visions Dany sees in the books are a pretty big revelation and involve a bunch of theories that many believe will come true as the books progress.

I personally didn't mind the alternate story line though. I thought the visions were clear enough to give non-readers a sense of what is to come. The only one I would nitpick was having Drogo show up again for no apparent reason. That vision really didn't progress anything in my opinion and ate up some valuable time that could have been put to better use elsewhere. In an episode that was so loaded with stories as this one, every second counts.

[Gen. Chris]

Good question! I miss Ghost, and he's important to helping Jon ...

Spoiler:

... gain (semi)acceptance among the wildlings.

Was it unclear to anyone that Qorin Halfhand ordered Jon to kill him? I mean, in the book it was very explicit, but it seemed only implied in the show. Maybe I missed it. I'd have a much lesser opinion of Jon if I thought that he killed Qorin out of anger.

Shouldn't the dragons be growing larger?

He didn't really ORDER Jon to do it, in the show. But I knew Qhorin was doing it to get Jon to kill him. He died so that Jon could gain the trust of the Wildlings, and he knew that's what he had to do.

[slimjim]

medieval societies aren't exactly known for a relaxed attitude to women's attire

[slimjim]

it reminded of the faces of puppets I's seen in TV shows as a very small child

[Gen. Chris]

...and?

Spoiler:

By the way, by just mentioning White Walkers and Season 2 finale that's a spoiler in itself.

[VampyreWraith]

I'm glad we got a chance to see the dragons up close. We saw Drogon in detail earlier in the season and seeing Viserion and Rhaegal up close was great.

I'm glad we got to see all three dragons too. I think the dragons look amazing, I can't wait to see how they look when they get bigger.

Good question! I miss Ghost, and he's important to helping Jon ...

Spoiler:

... gain (semi)acceptance among the wildlings.

Was it unclear to anyone that Qorin Halfhand ordered Jon to kill him? I mean, in the book it was very explicit, but it seemed only implied in the show. Maybe I missed it. I'd have a much lesser opinion of Jon if I thought that he killed Qorin out of anger.

Shouldn't the dragons be growing larger?

Ghost should be around more, or at least someone should mention him if he's going to be away from Jon for several episodes(and what seems like a really long time in the series). Since the show decided to include the direwolves, and the bond the Stark kids have with the direwolves, they could try showing them a little more(I get that they might be expensive to put in though, but still, more Ghost would be nice).

The motivation behind the Jon killing Qhorin was a bit vague, it really didn't come across as an order; but I don't feel that it came across as Jon killing Qhorin because he was bad mouthing his family(though I might just feel that way because of how things go down in the books). I believe Qhorin told Jon on the show that he needed to do whatever it took to get the wildlings to believe he was one of them, and once Qhorin started the fight with Jon, it did seem to imply that he wanted Jon to kill him in order to get close to the wildings(and it seemed to me that Jon understood that).

The dragons did look a bit small(but cool looking), hopefully they're bigger next season though.

Good news, i wont be spoiled then. Bad news, i'll probably be left scratching my head about it forever.

I have to wonder though, if some of the deviations from the books (not being a reader, i dont how much of a deviation certain parts are...or what they are) are things that GRRM couldnt (either due to length, his editor or just not "fitting" with the book narrative) put into his books. I cant imagine him allowing HBO to change things willy nilly or to radically alter his world beyond recognition.

The changes weren't really that big and don't really affect any major plots(at least not in a way that can't be fixed later). I think it was more that some things in the books wouldn't transfer well to screen(like some of the the visions in the House of the Undying). Some things may have been added/changed because hbo/the producers may have thought what was written might not have given certain characters enough (interesting?) things to do. I know I read somewhere that they wanted to add more romance, so Jon spent more time wandering around alone with Ygritte than is in the book, and Robb had the thing with that girl(who's name I can't remember). I'm assuming they changed the girl Robb married so they didn't have to cast as many characters for that part of the story(though I could be wrong).

[Bagpuss]

Title edited to be as vague as possible.

Discuss away.