Journey's End (3013/413)

[GateGipsy]

Caan wasn't decreeing - he was saying what was going to happen because he had seen the future.

[rosey_angel]

I don't think it was Caan or any of the daleks who closed the TARDIS door. like the big red one said (damn it i've seen the ep twice and still can't remember his name!), the TARDIS is Timelord technology, nothing to do with the Daleks. It's not the first time, even in this series, that the TARDIS has done something of its own accord to keep the timelines as they should be.

[P-90_177]

I don't think it was Caan or any of the daleks who closed the TARDIS door. like the big red one said (damn it i've seen the ep twice and still can't remember his name!), the TARDIS is Timelord technology, nothing to do with the Daleks. It's not the first time, even in this series, that the TARDIS has done something of its own accord to keep the timelines as they should be.

Caan was effecting the timelines though all through the season. He had turned into a sort of less powerful, Dalek version of the Bad Wolf I guess so closeing a door would be within his influence as long as he saw what was going to happen.

The red Dalek was the Supreme Dalek by the way.

[Alipeeps]

I don't think it was Caan or any of the daleks who closed the TARDIS door. like the big red one said (damn it i've seen the ep twice and still can't remember his name!), the TARDIS is Timelord technology, nothing to do with the Daleks. It's not the first time, even in this series, that the TARDIS has done something of its own accord to keep the timelines as they should be.

Indeed. We've already seen in The Doctor's Daughter the combination of the hand and the TARDIS cause events to happen in order to facilitate events happening... if that makes any sense?

The event of Donna becoming a human being with a Time Lord consciousness was such a specific and unusual event that it rippled backwards through time (much as clone Doctor explained that his unique nature had caused his heartbeat to ripple backwards in time to affect Donna) and caused the time lines to converge around Donna and make things happen to bring her to the circumstances where she would become a human being with a Time Lord consciousness.

Caan was effecting the timelines though all through the season. He had turned into a sort of less powerful, Dalek version of the Bad Wolf I guess so closeing a door would be within his influence as long as he saw what was going to happen.

The red Dalek was the Supreme Dalek by the way.

It was never stated that Caan was in any way a Dalek Bad Wolf or had any similar abilities to affect time. He SAW time and saw what would happen and he used his knowledge and prophecy to help push the Daleks towards that happening. As he told the Doctor, this was always going to happen - he just helped. I simply can't see, without it being stated that Caan had some kind of Bad Wolf powers to affect time and space etc, how he could have had any kind of ability to influence events outside of the Dalek empire. How could he have possibly influenced the Doctor and Donna's meetings? His influence in bringing events to pass was in bringing the Daleks to that situation at that time.

[scarimor]

Perhaps Jar!Hand snapped his fingers, lol!

[huntress]

"Journey's End" has been ghosting through my mind ever since it has aired and I doubt it will change soon. Some more random thoughts about the episode and everything that is connected to it


Let's start with Donna. I know that her memories have been repressed BUT the doctor didn't take them - just repressed them and the problem is, that none of the other "children of time" (love that moniker - even better then ducklings and scoobie gang) know that. They know and love Donna, they know that she is partially a time lord. Chances are very high that Jack, Martha and Mickey who are now probably all working with Torchood now will run into some serious kind of trouble and scream for the doctor or hope the doctor would be around but know that he is somewhere else in time and space. Can't you all just imagine them sitting and brooding together what to do and the whole lot snips with their fingers and shout "Of course! Donna!" They think of course that Donna is still with the doctor but all three know that the companions call regularly home and they do know where Donna lives. Imagine the surprise when they see Donna at home and how they approach her. I am pretty sure that they would do something that would trigger the release of the repressed memories and DonnaDoktor is back. The question though is - will Donna be able to cope? I am hoping that Torchwood will be able to help her deal with the vast knowledge. Also, Donna basically knows everything that the doctor does. I am sure there are enough villains around (for example The Trickster) who will try to get that information. So one way or another Donna has to be re-activated. She is like Jean Grey as Phoenix. She has a power that is too mighty for her......okay and Jean became the Dark Phoenix mmmmh it would be interesting if Donna would become something like the female version of The Master...mmmmh

You see way too many ideas for Donna and if I - a mere fan- have so many ideas then I am pretty sure that RTD and Stephen Moffat equally have a couple of ideas. Also Catherine Tate was really rather sorry to go She had really enjoyed herself.

The Doctor 2.0. : I do think that Rose will be able to make some more space for a slightly different version of the doctor. After all he is not that different. He still looks like Ten, talks like Ten and has the knowledge of Ten except that he is now mortal, has no TARDIS and no sonic screw driver. HOWEVER. I do believe that even in the parallel universe there had once been a doctor - like in the parallel universe we saw in "Turn Left" were that version of UNIT (or was it Torchwood not sure I have to re-watch the episode) salvaged the TARDIS . Maybe that other doctor died at some point and maybe UNIT or Torchwood have found a TARDIS and the technology in the TARDIS allowed them to build those machines that allowed them jump between universes. We know that the doctor 2.0 had no problems in flying the TARDIS because she accepted him so I am sure that if there is a different version of the TARDIS in that other universe then she will accept him too. So if he wanted to he could travel again with Rose. If there is no TARDIS then I am pretty sure that the doctor will work with and for Torchwood or Unit. Especially Unit always accepted him as a commanding officer. Whatever will happen, I am sure the doctor will keep on fighting aliens and be himself only this time he has Rose as his lover by his side.

Maybe that is too optimistic but I want to believe that.

[scarimor]

Caan wasn't decreeing - he was saying what was going to happen because he had seen the future.

So you didn't believe him? Interesting.

[Naonak]

Let's start with Donna. I know that her memories have been repressed BUT the doctor didn't take them - just repressed them and the problem is, that none of the other "children of time" (love that moniker - even better then ducklings and scoobie gang) know that.

I'm sure that the Doctor would send them a message to tell them.

[P-90_177]

It was never stated that Caan was in any way a Dalek Bad Wolf or had any similar abilities to affect time. He SAW time and saw what would happen and he used his knowledge and prophecy to help push the Daleks towards that happening. As he told the Doctor, this was always going to happen - he just helped. I simply can't see, without it being stated that Caan had some kind of Bad Wolf powers to affect time and space etc, how he could have had any kind of ability to influence events outside of the Dalek empire. How could he have possibly influenced the Doctor and Donna's meetings? His influence in bringing events to pass was in bringing the Daleks to that situation at that time.

The way I understood it is that Caan was manipulating time to make sure Donna was in the right place at the right time. Afterall Doctor 2.0 did say:

"You parked your car right where the TARDIS was going to land! That's not coincidence! Something's been drawing us together for such a long time."

However Caan said that it would have happend anyway. Which probably means that the Doctor still would have met up with the Doctor again but not then, meaning that she wouldn't have had that time to grow as a person and also that possibly it would have meant more lives would have been lost. Certainly Donna wouldn't have been able to help the Doctor the way she did in their travels and be a great friend to him.

Yes he did manipulate the daleks as well, but If caan felt the dalek empire needed to be destroyed then surely there were easier ways than that. The only other thing is that Bad Wolf herself manipulated the time line to make sure Doctor and Donna met like that when Rose looked inside the Heart of the TARDIS, just as she left just one last message out there for the doctor, but if she could do that then why not just wipe out the daleks in the future anyway and save everyone that was killed. Afterall there was no magic reset button like in last season. The Daleks invaded and no doubt hundreds if not thousands of people died.

[Alipeeps]

Let's start with Donna. I know that her memories have been repressed BUT the doctor didn't take them - just repressed them

He said that he wiped her memories, not repressed them. Wiped. Gone.

and the problem is, that none of the other "children of time" (love that moniker - even better then ducklings and scoobie gang) know that. They know and love Donna, they know that she is partially a time lord.

I don't know about love Donna. All of them only met her this once. And I'm pretty sure if the Doctor warned her parents so strongly that they can't EVER tell her anything about him or the TARDIS or what happened, he would think to warn Torchwood etc too.

Chances are very high that Jack, Martha and Mickey who are now probably all working with Torchood now will run into some serious kind of trouble and scream for the doctor or hope the doctor would be around but know that he is somewhere else in time and space.

I don't think the chances are that high. In their own series they have never called on the Doctor and in Doctor Who the Doctor has never called on SJ to help (hadn't been in touch with her, didn't know about Luke etc) or on Torchwood to help. It's only in the extreme circumstances of The Stolen Earth that they have called on him.

Can't you all just imagine them sitting and brooding together what to do and the whole lot snips with their fingers and shout "Of course! Donna!" They think of course that Donna is still with the doctor but all three know that the companions call regularly home and they do know where Donna lives.

Only Rose knows/knew where Donna lives. None of the others have ever been there. I'm sure Torchwood could easily find out, but still...

And if they needed to contact the Doctor - Martha (and now Jack) still has his phone number.

Imagine the surprise when they see Donna at home and how they approach her. I am pretty sure that they would do something that would trigger the release of the repressed memories and DonnaDoktor is back.

But the Doctor Donna wouldn't be back - she'd die. The Doctor made it quite clear. If she remembers, even for a second, she'll burn.

The question though is - will Donna be able to cope? I am hoping that Torchwood will be able to help her deal with the vast knowledge.

It's not a question of learning to/being able to deal with the vast knowledge... her body simply cannot physically handle containing a Time Lord consciousness. It was killing her. Would have killed her if the Doctor had not removed her memories.[/quote]

Also, Donna basically knows everything that the doctor does. I am sure there are enough villains around (for example The Trickster) who will try to get that information. So one way or another Donna has to be re-activated. She is like Jean Grey as Phoenix. She has a power that is too mighty for her......okay and Jean became the Dark Phoenix mmmmh it would be interesting if Donna would become something like the female version of The Master...mmmmh

You see way too many ideas for Donna and if I - a mere fan- have so many ideas then I am pretty sure that RTD and Stephen Moffat equally have a couple of ideas. Also Catherine Tate was really rather sorry to go She had really enjoyed herself.

I can't see any of this ever happening. The whole point of the tragedy of Donna is that this is forever - there is no going back. The knowledge is wiped from her mind and if she ever should remember, even for a second, it would kill her.

The Doctor 2.0. : I do think that Rose will be able to make some more space for a slightly different version of the doctor. After all he is not that different. He still looks like Ten, talks like Ten and has the knowledge of Ten except that he is now mortal, has no TARDIS and no sonic screw driver. HOWEVER. I do believe that even in the parallel universe there had once been a doctor - like in the parallel universe we saw in "Turn Left" were that version of UNIT (or was it Torchwood not sure I have to re-watch the episode) salvaged the TARDIS . Maybe that other doctor died at some point and maybe UNIT or Torchwood have found a TARDIS and the technology in the TARDIS allowed them to build those machines that allowed them jump between universes. We know that the doctor 2.0 had no problems in flying the TARDIS because she accepted him so I am sure that if there is a different version of the TARDIS in that other universe then she will accept him too. So if he wanted to he could travel again with Rose. If there is no TARDIS then I am pretty sure that the doctor will work with and for Torchwood or Unit. Especially Unit always accepted him as a commanding officer. Whatever will happen, I am sure the doctor will keep on fighting aliens and be himself only this time he has Rose as his lover by his side.

Maybe that is too optimistic but I want to believe that.

The parallel universe in Turn Left was essentially an off-shoot of this universe (the one containing the Doctor). There was still a TARDIS in that universe because it was a reality that branched off after the Doctor in this universe was killed. That in no way means that there are Doctors or TARDISes in other, unrelated, universes like Pete's World.

I do think the Doctor in the universe with Rose will end up working at Torchwood with her cos what else is he going to do? His knowledge would be valuable... and it would give him his required dose of adventure and risk!

[huntress]

He said that he wiped her memories, not repressed them. Wiped. Gone.

Nope he didn't. That's why he said to grandpa and her mom to never, ever mention him because she would remember again and that would probably kill her.

Well Martha has become close friends with her in matter of minutes, Rose likes her, it is the thing everybody really liked Donna,.

Rergarding calling the doctor: Jack would have loved to call the doctor. When the Torchwood gang asked him what would have made him change his mind and open the rift he said "the right kind of doctor", so if Torchwood is in a really, really tight spot then I am sure that would just hope that the doctor is around somewhere.

Torchwood KNOWS where everybody lives. They can tap in on virtually any computer system. CCTV is their big eye around Cardiff, so if they want to know where Donna lives they will find out in no time.

[Anubis69]

Yes he did manipulate the daleks as well, but If caan felt the dalek empire needed to be destroyed then surely there were easier ways than that.

If he saw all of time, he also saw their demise and hence he really had no choice in the method of killing them as it had, theoretically, already happened.

[Dusk]

OK, I'm coming back to the prophecy that "one will die". Has anyone speculated that this event might occur in the near future? As in the 2009 Specials? It just seems hollow and cheated to hammer this fact the entire episode only to have no one really die. Surely RTD isn't that facetious.

[Alipeeps]

OK, I'm coming back to the prophecy that "one will die". Has anyone speculated that this event might occur in the near future? As in the 2009 Specials? It just seems hollow and cheated to hammer this fact the entire episode only to have no one really die. Surely RTD isn't that facetious.

It meant Donna. To all intents and purposes, the Donna we knew is dead.

[huntress]

It seems quite a few people here have a problem wrapping their minds around that. It was really rather elegant and philosophical.