Journey's End (3013/413)

[Willow'sCat]

As for The Pope's comments...I can see your points, but I (politely!) disagree. British SF has always stood out from US and Canadian, and Doctor Who at its best (I don't think Journey's End counts, but it was good) really shows why. Can you see Stargate pulling off something like Blink (Who Season 3 ep with the weeping angels)? Frankly, while I like a great deal of US SF (SG-1, BSG, but not ST, SW), I place it in a totally different league. Much as I love scientifically accurate, believable SF, I also like the stuff that doesn't even pretend to be accurate, and says the story is more important. Notice the technobabble in Who is always tongue-in-cheek.

Doctor Who sits alongside Farscape and B5 for being daring and original to me, and actually trying to break conventions, not feature cliche devices like SGA does. If American writers had a crack at Doctor Who, the Tardis would quickly end up with weapons, shields, a cloaking device, the Doctor would carry a gun (and use it without hesitation) and every episode would hit the cosmic reset button right at the end. Sure, Who has adopted a few US-isms, but if Who writers took a crack at SGA...well. THAT would be worth seeing...

Green! Also I would love for RTD to do just one ep of SGA. I actually might want to watch it again.

*goes off to pour coffee*

[aschen]

I was right, I was right!!!

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=8522610

GRRREAT EPISODE!

[Col.Foley]

A number does not exist that is high enough for the wonders of this episode. And I would be here till my arms fell off talking about it. And this makes me say something that I never thought I would say. Russel, I'll miss you.

[ShadowMaat]

Hmmm. Right up until the whole Rose/Doctor crap I was loving this ep and thinking it was one of the best finales ever. I'm working hard to scrub that whole sequence from my memory and pretend the Doctor just dumped his other self in the AU as an extra layer of protection or something and so that Rose could help him clean up his act. In a strictly platonic and not vomit-inducing way.

I'm also not happy with what happened to Donna. It seems like a cheap way to dispose of someone who was, IMO, an absolutely brilliant character. I think I'd rather have her die honestly than through some cop-outy "the Donna we've all come to know died." It put me instantly in mind of Rose again and her whole "death" which was nothing more than her getting booted to another reality. However, I have a feeling we may see her again anyway given that ring on her finger. And just in case anyone had any doubts about whether or not it was really the Master's ring or not, they had to have that little scene where the ring goes GL(H)INT GL(H)INT GL(H)INT.

One question, though: how in the holy hells are Mum and Wilf supposed to explain the massive amount of time Donna's lost? If her memory of the Doctor is completely wiped, he'd have to dig all the way back to the wedding to do it. And she spent, what, weeks? Months? Afterward poking around and whatever, egged on by her encounter with the Doctor until she finally met him again during the Adipose thing. Even if you pick up from that incident on it's gotta be a good chunk of time. At the very least a few days. Donna isn't the type to accept that kind of loss without a fight. And a lot of questions. Or in addition to wiping her memory did he implant false ones? Kinda tricky, that.

I did love most of the ep, though. The Osterhagen Key as a global suicide pill of sorts was interesting. And Sarah Jane's Necklace of Doom. I think Davros was right about the Doctor turning people into weapons. At least partly. Their willingness to commit genocide in order to stop even greater destruction is definitely a Doctory sort of thing... but likewise they also saw fit to WARN first. Also Doctory.

LOVED LOVED LOVED Donna in this ep. Her whole interaction with the hand (which is finally resolved and can't be used again) and the result of that interaction. Another Doctor! Woohoo! And him channeling Donna had me LMAO. I think the waste of a regeneration (and his explanation of why) was a bit of a cop-out, but at least it was put to brilliant use.

Does this mean that Mickey and Martha will be joining Torchwood? I feel bad for him. He was so kickass in this ep (and in general) and it was wonderful to see him again, but I hope he manages to find someone who will love him for being HIM 'cos he sure as heck deserves it. Even Jackie managed to be pretty cool and has obviously learned a few tricks from her daughter.

The hint of the Christmas Special actually left me cringing. I take it RTD is writing that, too, right? Please, dear merciful gods,

Spoiler:

ENOUGH WITH THE EFFING DALEKS AND CYBERMEN!! If it isn't one it's the other. Or both. ENOUGH, I say. Both have already been over-used and this is just making it worse.

I pray that SM will have a bit more originality in him and won't keep falling back to all that. Seriously. I think this is the first time I've ever NOT looked forward to the Christmas ep. And that makes me sad. *sigh*

[Willow'sCat]

Now I have had my coffee and a while to think things over.

So...? Is the death of Donna Noble as we know her the death of the companion? 'Cause I have to say I missed that bit. After watching the Confidential it does seem that is what RTD was getting at.

While I hate what they did to Donna and I think RTD knew most fans would hate it, I see why they did it. It not only adds a lot of angst to The Doctor for the coming specials/series *again* it means Donna has to be brilliant all in her own time and off her own bat. Although given what The Doctor did for Martha I am sure their is a top notch career just waiting for Donna out there. She can have that job, that man and those children she seems so desperate to have. I don't think that is a bad thing at all. If she stayed with The Doctor *forever* she wouldn't have that, which is fine as well in its own way but, well Donna would probably have far too many regrets in the end. *I could be projecting there* OK, yes you can argue that being such a great companion that Donna deserved so much more. I don't disagree. I just think that as SJS found out... you need more then just time/space travel to live a life. Especially if you are human and dare I say it female. Martha and in some ways Jack have come to similar conclusions. I think regardless of her words Donna would have also left eventually.

It is sad and frustrating that they took her memories of The Doctor but that is scifi TV for ya! At least the door is open. I mean she isn't actually dead, I don't mind doors being left open in this case.

Now as far as Rose goes? Well as I said in my long(winded) post, I am glad the shipping has had some kind of final chapter. I was never a fan of *our* Doctor being in love with Rose, not just 'cause it was Rose but 'cause it was The Doctor. I don't think The Doctor should ever be seen falling in love with anyone, not until he is at least on his last legs in his last regeneration. It just isn't fair to ALL those other companions who fell for him and who he pretty much ignored. I think it puts Rose in a position as companion that she doesn't deserve (within the show). That is just my opinion of course. I know others think they are perfect for one and other and all that shippy stuff... I get that, I really do but Doctor Who has never been that blunt and forward with this kind of thing before and as a show I never want to see this happen again. EVER!

Billie said in the Confidential that she thinks Rose could come back one day... I just hope she doesn't or if so I hope she is madly in love with DoctorII and all thoughts of *our* Doctor, in that way, are a thing of the past. I can see the show now leaving Rose behind. I can see RTD not wasting time in the specials on her, on mentioning her and I can definitely see SM not having anything to say on the matter when he takes over. So, without being mean. Happy days!

Alright, two things... er... three things RTD does that piss me off! One he puts The Doctor in situations where it is almost impossible for him to be a hero. Two, he then turns around and calls him on it.

I don't think The Doctor as a character has ever been a saint. He is closer to an anti-hero then anything else, BUT he is also not the only reason his companions do stupid things like wanting to kill billions of humans.

I don't think Martha was going to blow up the Earth 'cause The Doctor wanted her to, it was because she could see the (stupid) logic in that plan (UNIT plan by the way not The Doctor's). I also think Jack has always been willing to kill himself (even before he was immortal, as proven in Empty Child/Doctor Dances) for the greater good. Actually you could argue that in Jack's case in Doctor Dances, it was The Doctor that encouraged him to risk his life to save millions of people. Yes it was Jack's fault in the first place but it was The Doctor's words and look that made Jack do what he did in the end.

I guess that is where I stand on whether The Doctor is a bad, bad man/Time Lord or pure as the driven snow. He does more good then bad and he only really does bad when he cannot see a way out of it... Time War for example. IMHO evil is when you do something knowing there are other options and you still chose the one option that will get everyone killed... er... something like that.

As for the actions of The DoctorII, I liked the explanation at the end that he is like the 9th was after the Time War. That makes sense, it even redeems some of what RTD wrote around the last two Doctors.

However it is also like having your cake and eating it too. Have one Doctor commit genocide (that so isn't going to come back and bite *our* Doctor in the arse ) while the other Doctor can be shown to save the Earth (and be good) as it wasn't really him but it was, but it wasn't... blah!

I can't believe I agree with Davros! Arh! How has it come to this!?!

*shakes fist*
*dam you Russell!*

[Earthgate Ricky]

with the re-regeneration and channeling all the energy into the hand after healing himself does it mean that the Doc is on his 11th regeneration? is DT the 10th and 11th Doc?

Spoiler:

No, It's clone Doctor, not 11th Doctor ( half-human and half Time Lord); he had all of original Doctor's memories, just one heart and one life. He can't regenerate himself but can age to be with Rose until natures of their deaths. The original Doctor punished clone Doctor to stay in paralled world with Rose and her family for exterminating Dalek race as Original was shocked. Doctor asks Rose to help clone Doctor to be better person like she did with 9th Doctor. Now TARDIS' gone, as Rose started a new life with her human Doctor. I believe that they will get married and have children soon.

[Willow'sCat]

Master's ring or not, they had to have that little scene where the ring goes GL(H)INT GL(H)INT GL(H)INT.

I noticed that ring but are you saying it is The Master's or that it was just like the way they showed The Master's ring? *needs to re-watch some eps*

One question, though: how in the holy hells are Mum and Wilf supposed to explain the massive amount of time Donna's lost?

Wondered that myself. Then again they could just say the finance was a ******* and ran off, or that she had amnesia... or some other LIE!

Donna isn't the type to accept that kind of loss without a fight. And a lot of questions. Or in addition to wiping her memory did he implant false ones? Kinda tricky, that.

Have to say this is par for the course in Who. He loves 'em dumps 'em and leaves others to sort things out. He is a right ******* sometimes.

they also saw fit to WARN first. Also Doctory.

Exactly! Even Martha said she had to do what The Doctor would do first.

Another Doctor! Woohoo! And him channeling Donna had me LMAO. I think the waste of a regeneration (and his explanation of why) was a bit of a cop-out, but at least it was put to brilliant use.

I don't think it is a regeneration. Even DT wasn't willing to be drawn on that in the Confidential. I am hoping they don't use it as a regeneration anyway.

Does this mean that Mickey and Martha will be joining Torchwood?

Um... yeah. At least that is why I am worried.

The hint of the Christmas Special actually left me cringing. I take it RTD is writing that, too, right? Please, dear merciful gods,

Spoiler:

ENOUGH WITH THE EFFING DALEKS AND CYBERMEN!! If it isn't one it's the other. Or both. ENOUGH, I say. Both have already been over-used and this is just making it worse.

I kind of see your point but back in the 70/80s they use to tag team each other at who would kill The Doctor first. It is traditional for one to follow the other.

We need a new tradition! lol

I pray that SM will have a bit more originality in him and won't keep falling back to all that. Seriously. I think this is the first time I've ever NOT looked forward to the Christmas ep. And that makes me sad. *sigh*

I wasn't looking forward to last years and I was SO right not to, it was bad. Well bad for a Doctor Who special anyway. Are the days of good specials numbered maybe?

RTD better get the 4 next year bloody right then.

[ShadowMaat]

I noticed that ring but are you saying it is The Master's or that it was just like the way they showed The Master's ring? *needs to re-watch some eps*

I dunno. Someone else was saying it was and I wasn't buying it until they made such an ostentatious show of it. Will have to re-watch the relevant ep myself, but I'm thinking the ring has to have SOME kind of significance. Either that or the someone needs to smack the gaffer upside the head. And the director for keeping the shot.

EDIT: Hmmm. Took a look. The Master's ring is NOTHING like the one Donna was wearing.

[Scoobing]

EDIT: Hmmm. Took a look. The Master's ring is NOTHING like the one Donna was wearing.

Maybe its The Rani's?

[memnarch]

I'm not fond of this phrase, but there's really no other way to describe this episode: it was an emotional roller coaster. I went from dread, at the realization of the Dalek's plan and Donna's near death at the core of the Crucible, to joy at the heroes' success and for the long awaited kiss, and finally to absolute heartbreak at Donna's fate. For her to lose that experience is just heartrending. And when Wilfred said he would watch the sky every night for her to the Doctor in the pouring rain, I freaking cried! They just keep piling the angst on the last Time Lord...I sincerely hope that he can find someone to travel with that'll make him happy again.

As for the future, it's pretty hard to say. I'd like to see both Martha and Mickey involved in Torchwood. I'm pretty sure Martha will, but Mickey is anyone's guess really. I'm a little concerned about River Song being a companion in the future. I mean, yeah, I like her, but she can't die in any episode she's in. She's invincible. Can't be vinced. We know her future, so there's very little peril for her...mind you, it's a very interesting plot device. Of course, with Steven Moffat, who wrote the episodes that introduced her, now helming the show, it's very likely that we'll see her again eventually. I don't really mind though, since Moffat tends to write brilliant stuff (Blink anyone?).

Finally, I predict that we haven't seen the last of the Medusa Cascade. It's tied to the Doctor's name and River Song learns the Doctor's name somehow...Also, the whole thing with the Doctor and Donna being drawn together isn't adequately explained either...

[Willow'sCat]

I dunno. Someone else was saying it was and I wasn't buying it until they made such an ostentatious show of it. Will have to re-watch the relevant ep myself, but I'm thinking the ring has to have SOME kind of significance. Either that or the someone needs to smack the gaffer upside the head. And the director for keeping the shot.

EDIT: Hmmm. Took a look. The Master's ring is NOTHING like the one Donna was wearing.

Hmmm, maybe when they do bring back The Master, which they will the ring/s might be linked some how. Oh, who knows. Sometimes a huge great ring that glints in the lights is just a huge great ring that glints in the lights.

I had a thought about Mickey. Other then to put him in Torchwood; why did he need to stay in this Universe? What was the reason? Also did Jack say UNIT was gone or is he just saying they are useless?

Torchwood1 and 3 was/is pretty useless too at times. Pot calling Kettle.

[Trek_Girl42]

Just finished the ep, my brain's going crazy, all I'll say is that I HATE the Doctor for what he did to Donna. I know it was the only way. But I really don't like him right now, at all. Absolutely awful to see her go back to that after she finally realized that she is someone special- it has me in a mess of tears. Especially seeing her as it dawned upon her what he was going to do- she would rather have died while knowing who she was and who she could be than go back to her old insecure life.

Brilliant ep, except for the beach scene. (what the frak was RTD thinking?) But I'll save the rest of my comments for tomorrow when I've processed it all.

[scarimor]

The more I think about it, the more heartbreaking it is what happened to Donna and I think RTD's right, it is like a death. Death of the Donna we knew. Worse than death, maybe? I love that the show went there though, that it did something so different and so kinda dark and sorrowful.

You're not wrong. Donna's fate is tragedy. It's great drama, because it's exactly what the Doctor would do with/for her. On thematic, character and prosaic levels (the three great tests of well-written drama) it makes absolute sense. It's the Everlasting Death that Caan foretold - not so much Donna's but our's - worse than death for us because we remember. The last we see of Donna she's laughing, and we're crying for her.

Davros was brilliant and insightful and not-quite-mad-but-near-enough to be spine-chilling. A great performance.

I adore the glorious scene when the doctor and his companions fly the TARDIS - the music, the laughter, the sheer excitement; and the joy on the faces of those on the shaking ground in Torchwood. Party! That was the orgasmic climactic moment of the narrative, the skin-tingling, earth-moving (literally!) pay-off.

And then the human tragedy. Wow.

[Mr Prophet]

Alas, poor Donna. We knew her, as she no longer knows herself. I suppose that qualifies as Dalek Caan's revenge on the Doctor, like the destruction of the Crucible was his revenge on Davros for ever creating the Daleks. I do like the idea that a Dalek would make up for the crimes of its race by destroying billions of lives; it fits well.

And Dalek Caan as the Bad Wolf. Neat.

[huntress]

I just saw the series finale of Doctor Who. THIS was the best finale I have seen since the fifth season finale of "Buffy". Gawd that was good!


Haa! Caroline was right. The hand was used and RTD was a big meanie for making us worried.

So they really meant Osterhagen as in Osterhagen in Germany. Sometimes we all think way too complicated. It was a bit amusing but also unnerving. Why the hell Osterhagen. There was a minor concentration camp there in WWII. BTW The German was really pretty good and gramattically correct. I always laugh my socks off when I watch triangle from X-Files because the German from Mitch and David is just terrible but Freema did a good job (then again most Brits I know speak pretty decent German and not a single American does. My dads best friend (okay he also lives near Düsseldorf speaks the cutest German)

So the rumours were right: Mickey and Martha will join Torchwood in the next series =) I know that some fans grumble and growl about that but I always liked Mickey and he seems like a tougher guy now and of course there is wonderful Martha so I am happy.

They gave Rose a proper happy ending and I could only laugh and cheer. She gets her own mortal Doctor. Someone she can be with with the rest of her life, grow old with together, have children. Everything the doctor ever wanted! I cried happy tears. Especially when they returned to the beach and she asked both doctors what he wanted to say to her and he whispers into her ear that he loves her and for once just this once the doctor kisses someone not for some weird purpose but out of love. =) The whole story was just wowowowowow and K-9 was also there. The plot twist of Donna becoming a Timelord hybrid and thet Dalek Kaan was actually the most loyal companion because through all the ages he was the one who worked together with the doctor to destroy the Daleks was one hell of a plot twist. The music by Murray Gold was incredible - especially the music while the Earth travelled bag to our solar system piggybacked on the TARDIS was just gorgeous! These two episodes were truly a dream come true for all loyal fans.

Now you probably want to know why I am also very sad and mellancholy at the same time:

Donna. That hurt me more then I can tell. I have come to love Donna very much. From all the companions she has become the one I truly enjoyed. Alaways enjoyed. Yes I loved Rose but Donna was funny, witty, not in love with doctor and simply wonderful. That all of her travels were erased at the end, that all the character growing and maturing was taken away from her and she became the same annoying and ignorant Donna from "Runaway Bride". That hurt and it obviously hurt the doctor too. Donna had become a good friend and he had seen the hidden potential of that woman and now everything was taken away and though she lives, he has lost a friend and he is alone again.

Rose. No more Rose. Ever. Yes she has her own doctor minus TARDIS now but he doesn't have Rose and even though that was him who at the end got Rose, the real doctor, the time lord, was the looser at the end. What did he gain? Only a knowledge that he already had in a way - that he doesn't just save lives, that he is the destroyer of worlds too.

The simple fact that this was the last series with RTD and that there won't be another series for two whole years. Okay there will be three or four one hour specials but that is nothing. It almost feels to me like the end of the Harry Potter series. It is hard to explain.

So this me. Sitting here with a laughing and a crying eye.