Downloaded (218)

[anotherquestion]

What did this god promise the Cylons? How about: what it means to be alive or a chance to live on ... forever? I think the fact that humans are considered truly living beings,and the Cylons are not drives the Cylon psyche. This is a theme throughout,from the first meeting in the pilot "Are you alive?" to the last line of this episode "We are alive" spoken by two Cylons who realize uniqueness and it empowers them. On a purely scientific level one of the prerequisites for living organisms is the ability to perpetuate the species through some form of reproductive means. Thus this fixation by the Cylons. However we are constantly reminded as in the pilot that "It's not enough to just live. You have to have something to live for." Adama said and continued "let it be Earth." Perhaps it is not Earth but love for some Cylons..... (another recurring theme). I think in this episode that these two Cylons realized it is more than love. It is individuality or difference. I think this was addressed by Rosaline and Billy in that pilot when Rosaline said "The world is coming to an end and all I can think about is I have cancer and I'm about to die. How selfish is that?" Billy's reply was "It's not selfish. It is human."

...

No matter, I think another recurring theme is "are we worthy to live?" As the humans are proving over and over again that living is a dirty game, I don't think that there can be a long lasting peace between a newly formed Cylon subculture that wants coexistence and humans. They can't trust each other, and the nasty business of survival / deceit will undo any chance of coexistence. .....unless the hybrid child is the answer. Right now it is the handling of the child that is the powderkeg.

I think the two paragraphs above show some remarkable perception and insight about the major threads running through the series.

I still think these issues need further resolution and clarification, and that's one of the things that keep my interest in the series, and captures my attention to ponder the fine points in the plot. Since the first season, we've seen the different instances of the Cylon models react differently, as individuals. That's why one Sharon model tried to shoot Helo (in the "reveal moment" to Helo that Sharon was a Cylon) while another instance of the same model intervened to save him. The individual Cylon instances gain their sense of individuality from their personal, and, especially, their interpersonal experiences.

Love, loyalty, and theology are depicted as both positive and negative forces in the series, depending upon the perspective of the viewer, and the effects on others.

[dec55]

Why would Sharon be considered a "war hero"? She certainly killed more Cylons, with the destruction of the Basestar, than Colonials. Her "prime mission", to kill Adama, failed. Even her "secondary mission" of depleting water resources was unsuccessfully, ultimately because she reported the existence of a replacement water source. She also failed to blow up her Raptor, although she was compelled to bring an explosive on board.

Galactica Sharon did a lot of damage to the Galactica single handily....even
though she didn't kill Adama, she did slow down operations to the point that
the Cylons were able to most likely solidify the conquest of the Colonies.

Depleting the water sources also caused the fleet to use more resources to
find water. One Cylon causing all this trouble and slow down would be invaluable as a whole underground sabotage team of special forces.


Sharon also provided Helo to produce Hera with Caprica Sharon. So Galactica Sharon actually, (Even though unwillingly.) played a huge role in slowing
the colonist fleet by her disruptive acts...and providing the father for the future of the Cylon plan.....

[LoneStar1836]

• Why do Cylons remain clothed on Caprica and prance around au naturel on the BaseStars?

They don’t want to get a sunburn.

• If Caprica Six had no post mortem memories (like knowing that Baltar lived), how did Sharon "remember" Adama's question to her as she was lying in the morgue on Gallactica? Remember she threw the question back to Adama on Home II, when he wrestled her to the ground ("you asked why"). Was the "why" she was referring to the "why" he was remembering, or the "why" in his "decommissioning speech" in the mini that Sharon listened to in her Raptor?

In Home, Part 2, they tried to imply that she was repeating what he had said to dead Boomer by inserting that clip, but I’m going to have to go with the “why” in his decommissioning speech.

• There is no hint of a "networking" shared memory model for the downloaded Cylons, no telepathy or automatic data sharing. Otherwise the other Cylons would be aware of Caprica Six's visions of Baltar. Without such a model, how does Caprica Sharon (now on Gallactica) remember her past relationship with Tyrol and Starbuck? Since the Sharon Valerii now downloaded on Caprica didn't know she was a sleeper agent, she could not have explicitly reported details like that. Was she debriefed during her other unseen "blackout" periods? If so, who took the "minutes", and how was it relayed? We know from "Final Cut" that the relay distance is finite.

I still say there is some kind of periodic upload or upload on command that Cylons in the field perform. Someone (possibly GalBoomer herself during the blackouts) or something triggered GalacticaBoomer’s memories to be uploaded to some database thus allowing CapricaSharon to accesses them on demand for her mission. In The Farm, CapricaSharon made this comment:

Anders: How many women do they have in these farms?
Sharon: Hundreds… Maybe thousands. I don’t know. I haven’t accessed that data.

Possibly implying that they have some kind of network for getting updates and need-to-know information.

For now I’m sticking with that until someone explains otherwise.

[Mackan]

When the nuclear blast went off on Caprica Six shielded Baltar with her body. When he woke up after the blast he was across the room and her body was twisted and destroyed. It was fleshed out in a little more detail in the book.

Was his "woke up across the room" pictured in the pilot episode? Because I don't remember it. But it was a good while ago I saw it.

[Mackan]

Has it ever been mentioned how the Cylon's downloading procedure works? I think I remember the "resurrection" ship needed to be close enough to be able to download the conscious into a new body. But the whole downloading procedure must be some new technology totally unknown to humans. How is the conscious transfered through walls and space to the new body? Or is the resurrection ship in constant contact with all cylons conscious' doing a realtime "backup" of them all the time? Then it would be more a matter of uploading it to the new body.

[ToasterOnFire]

I'll chew on a couple of these...

We see now that the Cylons clearly think and feel as individuals. How do they refer to each other as individuals? "Hey, you, the 5 model in the blue jumper"? The naming system is lame, if the best they can come up with is "Caprica 6" for one of their only celebrities.

I'm curious how they recognize each other as individuals if they all look the same. It can't be the clothing if they have a habit of running around nekkid. Some hidden scanning process?

If Roslyn had killed Sharon's baby, and the Resurrection Ship were still intact, would the baby have "downloaded"? Do blank models have to be ready and waiting, or are they formed "in the goo" as needed? Would the baby have downloaded to a dormant Sharon model?

I would guess that the d/ling process would be frakked up because of the half-human qualities of the baby. Even more reason for the cylons to try and protect her.

How does a Cylon become "boxed"? Is it like capital punishment, the living body is killed, and the consciousness is "downloaded" into a "dormant body" or a "data store"?

That would be my guess. The stored memory could be analyzed by other cylons to see what "went wrong", but it probably wouldn't get put into another body again.

Are the "handler" or "midwife" models randomly assigned, or purposely assigned? Is the number 1 model the one in charge of the Cylon Plan? Who decides which models are sleepers, and which are self-aware agents? Will the sleeper agent program be re-assessed in the light of Sharon's reaction and counterproductive activities?

No idea here. Orders and designations could come from higher-ups like the number 1 or 2 models, they could be innately programmed somehow, or they could come from the cylon god. What the heck is this cylon god, anyway? That's my major curiosity right now.

Why do Cylons remain clothed on Caprica and prance around au naturel on the BaseStars?

For protection against the radiation...ah I got nothing.

[anotherquestion]

• Caprica Six resurrected on "day one" of the Cylon war, on Caprica itself. If the Resurrection Facility was similar in size and extent as the "Resurrection Ship" itself (and there is no reason to believe otherwise) then its construction and finishing would constitute a considerable bit of activity. Was the facility built by Colonials or Cylons? How did this happen, as a practical matter? How could Cylons raise funds, negotiate zoning laws, and do the thousands of other activities associated with modern building and construction? Was it all through Colonial proxy companies?
• Where would the facility be located to be safe from the nuclear attacks? Underground? Still more complex construction considerations. Surely it wasn't all "shipped in" and dropped in place.
• Obviously the "birthing handlers" had to be present to help the download of Six. How extensive was the Cylon presence on Caprica on "day one"?
• Were many Cylons on Caprica devastated in the original attack, as Six was? Was Six "authorized" to make that last appearance to Baltar? Was it part of her mission to preserve his life, or did that spring entirely from her love of Baltar? Did she divulge the vital Cylon secrets (the twelve models, the download of consciousness) only because she knew Baltar was about to die?
• If love is the vital ingredient of Cylon-human reproduction, why wasn't Six impregnated by Baltar? She obviously gave her life to protect him. He, just as obviously, loves her. Do the spines glow just for the big "O", or do they glow at the actual moment of conception? Could Caprica Six have been pregnant at the time of her death?
• Leoban at Ragnar was obviously very sensitive to radiation at Ragnar Anchorage. It is one of the few telltale characteristics of Cylons, along with glowing spines, and a large reserve of energy. Why are the Cylons able to walk about on highly irradiated Caprica with impunity? It seems that the radiation is so strong there that all the humans have to take meds to cope with it. Is it simply at a different "frequency" or different fast particles?
• Caprica Six and Sharon calculate that they have about 36 hours before the 3 model they "murdered" is downloaded. At that time, presumably, the jig is up. Do you think they can spin a yarn convincingly enough, as "war heroes" and injured survivors, to cause the Deanna instance to be "boxed on arrival" (BOA)? They could say they saw her conspiring with an unidentified Colonial Rebel agent when the bomb went off. They could also claim that she was trying to escape the effects of the blast by accompanying them in the stairwell, but mistimed the blast. Or that she judged that all three would be consumed by the explosion, but she had made plans for their consciousness to be boxed ahead of time.

[Bl4de]

• Caprica Six resurrected on "day one" of the Cylon war, on Caprica itself. If the Resurrection Facility was similar in size and extent as the "Resurrection Ship" itself (and there is no reason to believe otherwise) then its construction and finishing would constitute a considerable bit of activity. Was the facility built by Colonials or Cylons? How did this happen, as a practical matter? How could Cylons raise funds, negotiate zoning laws, and do the thousands of other activities associated with modern building and construction? Was it all through Colonial proxy companies?
• Where would the facility be located to be safe from the nuclear attacks? Underground? Still more complex construction considerations. Surely it wasn't all "shipped in" and dropped in place.
• Obviously the "birthing handlers" had to be present to help the download of Six. How extensive was the Cylon presence on Caprica on "day one"?
• Were many Cylons on Caprica devastated in the original attack, as Six was? Was Six "authorized" to make that last appearance to Baltar? Was it part of her mission to preserve his life, or did that spring entirely from her love of Baltar? Did she divulge the vital Cylon secrets (the twelve models, the download of consciousness) only because she knew Baltar was about to die?
• If love is the vital ingredient of Cylon-human reproduction, why wasn't Six impregnated by Baltar? She obviously gave her life to protect him. He, just as obviously, loves her. Do the spines glow just for the big "O", or do they glow at the actual moment of conception? Could Caprica Six have been pregnant at the time of her death?
• Leoban at Ragnar was obviously very sensitive to radiation at Ragnar Anchorage. It is one of the few telltale characteristics of Cylons, along with glowing spines, and a large reserve of energy. Why are the Cylons able to walk about on highly irradiated Caprica with impunity? It seems that the radiation is so strong there that all the humans have to take meds to cope with it. Is it simply at a different "frequency" or different fast particles?
• Caprica Six and Sharon calculate that they have about 36 hours before the 3 model they "murdered" is downloaded. At that time, presumably, the jig is up. Do you think they can spin a yarn convincingly enough, as "war heroes" and injured survivors, to cause the Deanna instance to be "boxed on arrival" (BOA)? They could say they saw her conspiring with an unidentified Colonial Rebel agent when the bomb went off. They could also claim that she was trying to escape the effects of the blast by accompanying them in the stairwell, but mistimed the blast. Or that she judged that all three would be consumed by the explosion, but she had made plans for their consciousness to be boxed ahead of time.

She said it took about 36 hours to resurrect Biers, correct?

So that would mean there were probably no facilities on the planet the same day of the nukes.

But, I would imagine, she resurrected in a ship in orbit above the planet. The Cylons are rather slow building things as we saw when Tyrol and gang landed on Kobol, there's no way they could have built a giant facility the same day.

[Speakfire]

She said it would take around 36 hours to ressurrect Biers because of the backlog due to the explosion, was the impression I got.

[entil2001]

This turns out to be the episode where Ron Moore and I don’t quite see eye to eye. Ron believes this is one of the best episodes of the series. I come from two viewings with a somewhat less enthusiastic response. It wasn’t until well after I listened to the podcast that I realized what my issue with the episode really is.

The point of this episode is to show how Caprica-Six and Sharon, based on their long-term relationships with humans, changed so dramatically that they decide to change the course of the Cylons. That’s all very well and good, since C-Six mentions that it’s all about the love and how following God should not mean killing and genocide. Sharon certainly had plenty of experience with the better side of humanity with Tyrol.

But if the episode is about change, and profound change, then the audience should have a solid understanding of where the Cylons were philosophically prior to this change. And that is my problem with this turn of events. The Cylon agenda has never been particularly clear. It’s not clear why the Cylons tried to wipe out humanity, why they pushed Boomer into Helo’s arms to have a hybrid baby, why they’ve let the fleet stay alive all this time (and it is a matter of letting them survive), and so on.

Equally troublesome is D’Anna’s attitude about humans and the treatment of the two Cylons who “went human”. The fact is, that’s what the Cylons programmed them to do, and there’s plenty of evidence from the first season to suggest that the Cylons wanted a Sharon and a human to fall in love for the purposes of the hybrid. And since D’Anna noted in “Final Cut” that the hybrid was the key to the Cylon agenda, why would this D’Anna be so adamant that human emotions were some kind of weakness?

The point is that the Cylon agenda was never clear to begin with, and so it’s hard to see how this movement beginning with C-Six and Sharon is supposed to be a kind of revolution. Such problems litter the episode. While it’s very clever to have C-Six channeling a version of Baltar, it brings up an issue in Ron’s discussion of it. Ron suggests that Baltar is C-Six’s conscience, just as Six is an expression of Baltar’s guilt. The problem, of course, is that Six has revealed information and has acted independently of Baltar on several occasions. If that’s the explanation, then two seasons worth of evidence strongly contradicts it.

Finally, I’m not particular impressed with the response to the birth of the hybrid by Roslin and Adama. For one thing, it would make no sense to kill it, for the same reason that pretending it died is a horrible idea. The Cylons want the hybrid. They have the hybrid. Placing the hybrid in a secure area with plenty of security will force the Cylons to expose their plans, and could also force Cylon models that haven’t been identified to expose themselves. If the Cylons believe the child is dead, instead of with the fleet, and the hybrid was the most important thing…well, why should the Cylons keep the fleet around?

Of course, all of these things could come back into play as the season finale unfolds, so it may be premature to grumble about contradictory plot elements or lingering plot holes. This is one series that typically avoids such pitfalls, so perhaps that faith is not yet unwarranted. Still, this is one with some glaring questions left unaddressed, and if those questions remain unanswered, this will be remembered as the episode where it all began falling apart.

[anotherquestion]

She said it took about 36 hours to resurrect Biers, correct?

So that would mean there were probably no facilities on the planet the same day of the nukes.

But, I would imagine, she resurrected in a ship in orbit above the planet. The Cylons are rather slow building things as we saw when Tyrol and gang landed on Kobol, there's no way they could have built a giant facility the same day.

Okay, I watched again and concede that both Six and Sharon were most likely revived on the Resurrection ship orbiting somewhere nearby. I was misled by the "Caprica: nine months ago" positioning slide that preceded the recap of the explosion that killed six (and the absence of another such slide before the revival of Six).

This means that both Six and Sharon were shipped back to Caprica, likely at their own request, shortly after they were revived.

I did notice one other thing upon reviewing worth mentioning. When the Beers' model grabbed the dog tag from the unconscious Anders she read the name "Thrace, Kara Thrace". When the tag was clearly shown at least twice to have "K Thrace, Starbuck" on it. Why do Cylons always tip their hands about extra knowledge about Starbuck? Caprica Six and Sharon may be the only Cylon celebrities, but Kara's fame seems to be universal in the Cylon empire.

[Craig Ranapia]

Anyone think a Cylon civil war is coming in the upcoming seasons? This episode could have planted the seeds for one.

Entirely possible, do you get the impression that "boxing" isn't exactly a treat for good little Cylons who exterminate their quota of human beings and say their prayers. Perhaps this Six is finally going to use her manipulative mind-fracking evil be-atch powers for good - or at least marginally less bad.

[KatG]

This was a great episode.

Loved seeing the Cylons at "home". I'm not really surprised that we didn't learn anymore Cylon identities. I think it's much better when we get hit with it by surprise when we least expect it.

I did have a moment there, when "Baltar" spoke to the resurrected C-Six, that I thought aha, Baltar is a cylon, then when I realized he was in her mind that was even cooler.

Like that G-Sharon and C-Six refuse to fall in line with the Cylon way of thinking. But then I've always liked rebels.

I felt so bad for Helo and Sharon. I understand why Roslin did what she did, but still it was really heart wrenching to see Sharon's reaction.

I have to say that Grace Park did a fantastic job in this one, as both Sharons. She really pulled the emotions out and gave it everything she had. An excellent performance all around.

[Craig Ranapia]

Equally troublesome is D’Anna’s attitude about humans and the treatment of the two Cylons who “went human”. The fact is, that’s what the Cylons programmed them to do, and there’s plenty of evidence from the first season to suggest that the Cylons wanted a Sharon and a human to fall in love for the purposes of the hybrid. And since D’Anna noted in “Final Cut” that the hybrid was the key to the Cylon agenda, why would this D’Anna be so adamant that human emotions were some kind of weakness?

Because human emotions are a weakness. Caprica-Six's mission was to gain access to the Defence Mainframe - and exploiting Baltar's sexual vanity was the way to do it. But she risked exposure in the mini-series by killing the child in the market - which looks more and more like her twisted idea of mercy. Ditto for both Sharons - their mission wasn't to fall in love or cling to their false memories. They were meant to do their jobs, stay on-mission then go back to being good Cylons. But even the Cylons don't have everything run according to plan. If they weren't going native, then there'd be no reason for D'Anna being quite so not to have them both "boxed" - i.e. their consciousnesses prevented from further downloads.

Here's another notion to consider, a musing that was prompted by the podcast: The humano-Cylons haven't been carefully planning this for centuries. The Cylon Wars ended little more forty years before, and there's no suggestion that the human forms existed before that time. There's a possibility that the Cylons aren't some Borg collective, but they're just as confused and contradictory - and profoundly divided - as the humans they feel so superior to.

Finally, I’m not particular impressed with the response to the birth of the hybrid by Roslin and Adama. For one thing, it would make no sense to kill it, for the same reason that pretending it died is a horrible idea. The Cylons want the hybrid. They have the hybrid. Placing the hybrid in a secure area with plenty of security will force the Cylons to expose their plans, and could also force Cylon models that haven’t been identified to expose themselves. If the Cylons believe the child is dead, instead of with the fleet, and the hybrid was the most important thing…well, why should the Cylons keep the fleet around?

OK, first, I don't think Roslin and Adama see it as a matter of the Cylons "allowing" them to do any damn thing. They're just staying alive from day to day, and the one certainty is that there's an unknown number of Cylon agents (presumably not able to communicate with the others) and human sympathisers out there in the fleet. If they know the child is still alive it poses a threat to Galactica no matter how much security there is around it. But when push comes to shove, and all the things Roslin has done, she can't quite bring herself to condone infanticide. (A forced abortion is quite another, but I guess that's a rather sharp point being made if you're politically inclined to draw it.) OK, it's not an ideal solution - and hellaciously creepy on any level you care to name - but Roslin and Adama thought they had another three months or so to think it through...

[Craig Ranapia]

• Leoban at Ragnar was obviously very sensitive to radiation at Ragnar Anchorage. It is one of the few telltale characteristics of Cylons, along with glowing spines, and a large reserve of energy. Why are the Cylons able to walk about on highly irradiated Caprica with impunity? It seems that the radiation is so strong there that all the humans have to take meds to cope with it. Is it simply at a different "frequency" or different fast particles?

I took a look at the mini-series, and it's not radiation from nuclear weapons that the Cylons are sensitive to but some particular about the "storm" around the Ragnar Anchorage - and even then, it takes hours to visibly effect Cylons. And how we know Cylons don't require anti-radiation medication on Caprica? Perhaps they spend most of their time in shielded bunkers or areas of the planet with low radiation, or take a pill with breakfast. (According to Sharon & the Connoy of 'Flesh and Blood' they do need to eat, even if they have greater endurance than humans.)