Pegasus (210)

[Sauce]

I found Kara's interrogation of Leoben to be questionable but not over the line. I found Roslin's "airlock that trash" attitude towards Leoben (and later Sharon) to be surprising but sort of understandable. And yet systematic torture and rape crosses the line.

Pegasus obviously sees the cylons as machines, killing machines to be exact. If you refuse to bestow the Cylons with any humanity, how could you actually abuse them? BTW what would you call the water "interogation" Kara put Leobon thru? How about the beatings? It looked like torture to me.

[FeloniousMonk]

I stand corrected and bow [well, nod] to your superior intellect. Well...no, actually, I don't:

There are three people in the fleet with Power at Their Disposal: Cain, Adama, and Roz. Cain, at the moment, has the biggest, fastest, and most lethal ship. Adama has a loyal battlestar but has been severely crippled by the [temporary] loss of Apollo and Starbuck, not to mention however many of Cain's men are running around on Galactica. Roz has Adama (see previous) and the Quorum, who have already amply proved that they can't do didly squat other than press conferances.

My point being that there is no override because these people have three very different power bases and yet all want/need to be in command.

And Roz is NOT just a schoolteacher!



[Sorry if this winds up sounding overly indignant; it's not intended.]

I would never claim to have superior intellect to anyone. Superior trivial knowledge that serves little purpose outside of rambling on the internet...oh yeah, I ****ing RULE in that arena.

I understand that they all want to be in command but from the looks of it Cain is relying on her military training to pull her through, just as her officers have done. If that's the case, if she really is following her training to the letter and doing what she feels is right by the code of ethics ingrained in her since basic training then she would feel at least partially compelled to accept Roslin's authority.

Now this is assuming that the whole basis behind her being such a cold hearted ***** is that a lone Battlestar would have to rely solely on its' military training to survive. If, on the other hand, she was a rotten ***** from the get go then she may just be a power hungry girl meeting up with the fleet during the wrong weekend of the month.

I just think that bringing Roslin into the argument would've helped cool it down a bit...either that or it would've blown up in their faces. Though I doubt Cain, or anyone for that matter, would simply leave the fleet high and dry by taking out the Galactica, knocking off the Prez, and the FTLing the hell outta there.

But I could be wrong.

[FeloniousMonk]

it doesnt matter what they did, you dont go there. by stooping to that level they justified everything the cylons have said about us and made them right. you want to kill her, fine she is an enemy and wiped out the rest of the human race. you want to torture her for information, smack her around, very distasteful, but under the circumstances neccasary. but when you start condoning rape of a prisoner, and opening it up for the crew to do for fun, then you have become a monster. Every crew member that took part in it should be put out an airlock, and Cain should be as well for condoning it.

You have to realize that many of them see her as just a machine. Might as well be a blow up doll or something; they never had a Boomer to bond with and think "hey, maybe they're not just a bunch of wires and code..."

To them the Cylons are just robots. Raping a human being is one thing, sticking your dick in a toaster may be damn weird but it ain't rape.

[FeloniousMonk]

It looked like torture to me.

eh, that was some of the weakest "torture" I've ever seen

systematically chop off the ends of each finger and toe, use needles to slice the cornea, lop off the ears and eyelids, castration, spot electrocution, rosie o'donnell....now those are forms of torture. a few punches and a bucket of water? c'mon, I've seen frat boys do worse

[Sauce]

eh, that was some of the weakest "torture" I've ever seen

systematically chop off the ends of each finger and toe, use needles to slice the cornea, lop off the ears and eyelids, castration, spot electrocution, rosie o'donnell....now those are forms of torture. a few punches and a bucket of water? c'mon, I've seen frat boys do worse

Didn't Rush Limbaugh say the same thing about Abu Ghraib? Yuck.

[spg_1983]

You have to realize that many of them see her as just a machine. Might as well be a blow up doll or something; they never had a Boomer to bond with and think "hey, maybe they're not just a bunch of wires and code..."

To them the Cylons are just robots. Raping a human being is one thing, sticking your dick in a toaster may be damn weird but it ain't rape.

no it still is rape. they took pleasure in the fact that they were violating the cylon. it doesnt matter if it was human or not, it is the sick twisted mentality behind the act of doing it. they did it to violate and hurt the cylon and by doing so the gave up their humanity. i get what you are saying, and if they were just humping an electrical socket because they were lonely, thats fine, but the made the choice to force themselves on her/it/whatever for the purpose of violating it, there is no excuse for it, it is an inhuman act. they showed that they were ready, willing, and able to do it already, whats to stop them from doing it to cally? or kara? or dee? or roslin? they are sick disgusting creatures and by doing that justified the cylons. i know if i was a member of that crew or fleet and found out about that, i would be thinking about giving the cylons a call.

[FeloniousMonk]

Didn't Rush Limbaugh say the same thing about Abu Ghraib? Yuck.

Wouldn't know, I've never listened to that guy. Abu Ghraib was bad in its' own right...but torture? Barely.

To be honest I don't think most Americans can comprehend true torture. Real torture always includes removing body parts.

[Amanda Eros]

That was a very intense episode! I really really really hate anything that has to deal with Rape. I hope that those Peg hell bound Son of B****** get what's coming to them. Personally anyone who rapes another deserves either one of two fates. Be raped themselves equall to the amount that they inflicted or be compleatly and totally disarmed of their weapon of choice.

However that episode did have my heart racing. If I was Adama, I would have given the order to have the fleet jump as soon as I retreaved the rest of my crew and send a rapter and the Black bird out to retreave Apollo. Then I would have thrown the Peg crew into the brig and interigate each of them to find out what type of crimes they committeed. Then have them sent to the Astral Queen to await trail. Unless the crew were female and had nothing to do with the rapes, then I would leave them in the brig until they went to trial.

[FeloniousMonk]

no it still is rape. they took pleasure in the fact that they were violating the cylon. it doesnt matter if it was human or not, it is the sick twisted mentality behind the act of doing it. they did it to violate and hurt the cylon and by doing so the gave up their humanity. i get what you are saying, and if they were just humping an electrical socket because they were lonely, thats fine, but the made the choice to force themselves on her/it/whatever for the purpose of violating it, there is no excuse for it, it is an inhuman act. they showed that they were ready, willing, and able to do it already, whats to stop them from doing it to cally? or kara? or dee? or roslin? they are sick disgusting creatures and by doing that justified the cylons. i know if i was a member of that crew or fleet and found out about that, i would be thinking about giving the cylons a call.

Well it's not really an inhuman act. Considering humans do it quite often I'd say it isn't an inhuman act at all. Nor is it an unnatural act; what we call "rape" occurs naturally in the animal kingdom quite frequently, more often than many would like to admit. Now with our ability to reason and thus our nearly unanimous conclusion that each human has a right to their own body, rape becomes an immoral act.

But only when commited against another living creature. If someone invented a Fleshlight that could attach to your computer for some unholy reason, it still wouldn't be rape. A machine is still a machine in the eyes of many. The scene bothered me for two reasons:

A. I've been close to a rape victim and thus the mere mention of it manages to send a tingle up my spine at the thought without fail. Despite it being a natural act my ability to reason brings out a pretty nasty emotional response.

and

2. Despite the fact that I still view Sharon as nothing more than a really complicated robot, I understand that Tyrol and Helo have strong connections to her that, were I in either of their shoes, I would likely also feel. That scene made me feel for them more than Sharon.

What's to stop them from doing it to the girls you mentioned? The fact that the girls you mentioned are, at least at this point, known to be human as opposed to toasters.

[spg_1983]

Well it's not really an inhuman act. Considering humans do it quite often I'd say it isn't an inhuman act at all. Nor is it an unnatural act; what we call "rape" occurs naturally in the animal kingdom quite frequently, more often than many would like to admit. Now with our ability to reason and thus our nearly unanimous conclusion that each human has a right to their own body, rape becomes an immoral act.

But only when commited against another living creature. If someone invented a Fleshlight that could attach to your computer for some unholy reason, it still wouldn't be rape. A machine is still a machine in the eyes of many. The scene bothered me for two reasons:

A. I've been close to a rape victim and thus the mere mention of it manages to send a tingle up my spine at the thought without fail. Despite it being a natural act my ability to reason brings out a pretty nasty emotional response.

and

2. Despite the fact that I still view Sharon as nothing more than a really complicated robot, I understand that Tyrol and Helo have strong connections to her that, were I in either of their shoes, I would likely also feel. That scene made me feel for them more than Sharon.

What's to stop them from doing it to the girls you mentioned? The fact that the girls you mentioned are, at least at this point, known to be human as opposed to toasters.

wow the very fact that you would think what they did was ok or natural is more disturbing than the fact that they did that in the show. The show is just that, a show. but you are a real person and you condoning rape. that is disgusting and so are you, im not even going to continue this discussion with you you sick freak.

[Amanda Eros]

WTF, where did you get this?

Oh, and I live near a base that houses 5 carrier battle groups, but the flag ship is a modified cargo ship for command and Control.

Whats the new Cylon ship? Cylon ultra longrange Wifi?

My guess is that it is a trap. If Peg hasn't been affected by the Cylon virus yet, then I'm thinking that they are using Peg and want them to find the fleet to turn her weapons against Galatica.

[anotherquestion]

This episode shows what can happen when the military universe collapses in on itself to a very small group that must survive "in detached deployment" by discipline alone. In a larger sense it is about the danger of tunnel vision leading one astray during crisis situations when one's scope of control, and options are limited.

Adama was much the same as Cain in the mini-series, he was balls-out ready for attacking the Cylons regardless of the odds or the probability of a favorable outcome. The blood lust was full up, it took Roslin's intervention to rein him in (and his growing sense of responsibility for a larger "family", the fleet, to care for).

Cain lacked that counterbalance of the civilian fleet, and the corresponding stewardship for its safety. Nevertheless, Cain's first impluse was for self preservation, not a self-immolation attack that Adama was contemplating. She still thinks in terms of "hit and run" tactics, and has, obviously, honed the fighting skills of her crew to a razor's edge. She has obviously kept her militay assets intact, so much so that she is able to resupply BSG with spare parts and other impossible-to-duplicate items. She seems to enjoy the respect of her subourdinates, a respect that seems to extend beyond a sense of fear. It's odd we didn't see many female soldiers or pilots among her crews complement.

What, may I ask, was so wrong with keeping a scorecard on the Vipers? It's been a time-honored tradition in our armed services, and, very likely, does increase morale and the competitive spirit among the pilots. The Cylons are clearly the enemy of humanity and we have seen the crew of the Gallactica slaughter them in abundance, just as the Cylons slaughtered the twelve colonies. It's not like they're keeping a necklace of ears or scalps. Starbuck's reaction to the practice was childish and parochial (we don't do that here, so it isn't the right thing to do) in typical Starbuck fashion. Both of the respective crews seem to bristle with a myopic vision of "it's my way or the highway". BSG's crew is not innocent in this regard.

What's remarkable in most of the posts in this thread is the sympathy toward the Cylon prisoners. In the last episode we witnessed an entire Cylon fleet massacred without compunction. Think about it--thousands of Cylons, many likely to be the human models on the larger Raiders, torn apart while they were helpless to retreat or defend themselves. This was just last week. I can understand the response of Helo and the Chief to the assault on Sharon, they both have a lot invested in the Sharon they both loved, but the response of the many posts on the thread seems to extend the milk of human kindness only to those Cylons we've met up close and personal, not the dehumanized toasters that are disposed of by the hundreds.

Cain's actions were, almost certainly, entirely legal and may well be within the spirit of the law as well. A beautiful Cylon is still not a human being, it is a predator of human beings. The one tortured on Pegasus is a known killer of seven human beings. Cain and her crew have only known Cylons as predators, never saviours or protectors of humanity. From their perspective, no rape has occured because you cannot rape a machine, but you can be fracked to death by one (think of number 6's kiss in the opening of the miniseries).

What does death mean to a Cylon, at any rate? It seems no more than a temporary blip in their otherwise continuous stream of conciousness, as they download their memories and experiences to their next incarnation. Cylons are effectively immortal. You could make a case that torture, or some kind of immediate experiential distress, is the only effective interrogative tool for a Cylon. We've kept our sympathies for Starbuck, even after she tortured Leoban. Baltar actually tortured the Chief to increase the stress level for Sharon. Both actions extracted information. This is very slippery ground the series is treading upon. Our own myopia is at play. If we were following the exploits of the Pegasus and its crew as closely as we have been following BSG, we might have had much more sympathy for Cain's views, discipline, and abilities. As Adama explained "context matters".

Doubtless both Viper groups will be called off their mutually assured destructive path when the season resumes in January. Either Adama will stand down, or an intervening Cylon attack will providentially provide the "Machina Ex Machina" event to unite both Battlestar's in a joint defense, ending in the destruction, or the permanent(?) withdrawal, of the Pegasus.

My guess about the unknown Cylon vessel is that it houses the dormant bodies of the human Cylon models, waiting to receive the conciousness of others. That's why then next episode is named "Resurrection Ship". RDM seems to like the idea of the tiltles reflecting mulitple meanings. "Final Cut" was the final edit of the video, the final decision of the D'anna about what to disclose and what to edit out of the story of the fleet, and the final "jab" at the audience when a new Cylon is revealed at the end. "Home" refers to Kobol (the birthplace of us all) and the reunification of the fleet (I'm going to bring them home, said Adama). "Resurrection Ship" also has multiple meanings, implying that one Battlestar survives through the end of the episode, and, also that the large Cylon vessel contains the "resurrected" bodies of the human Cylons as they transfer conciousness at the moment of death.

[Arative]

This was easily one of the best episodes of the series, if not one of the best episodes of any sci-fi show that I have seen. When I saw the 6 model laying on the floor, I knew they beat her but I had no idea that they had been raping her and the entire crew taking turns on her. It turned my stomach because it showed the depths that human dapravity can sink too. The 6 in Baltar's head with tears in her eyes at what had been done to a fellow cylon, to herself essential was brillant. Really parallels the current discussion of the treatment of prisoners of war.

And that got me thinking that, the Galatica crew could had easily been the same as the Pegasus' crew had they not had the civilan fleet to look after. Protecting innocent lives gave the Galatica crew a purpose but I think that all the Pegasus' crew had was the fight and it turned them into animals. When all you have is revenge, it strips away your humanity. Cain certinally seems to be insane, for a lack of a better word. I don't know the inner workings of the colonies miltary structure but I would think that Roslin would actually be in charge. I know her and Adama have an agreement that he runs the miltary, she runs the civilan fleet but still Cain is doing everything by regulations, so shouldn't Cain defer to the President? And couldn't the President relieve Cain of command?

Another thought that I've sort of been formulating over the past season and half, I keep thinking how much are the cylons are manipulating the rag tag fleet? We've caught glimpses of how the cylons were regarded before the war, as slaves and just another piece of equipment. Sharon's sole purpose seems to be to get the humans to regard cylons as people, someone to respect, basically as equals. The first Sharon tried to kill Adama, basically everyone some respects and considers a father figure. Cally certainly felt justified in killing that Sharon. Enter Helo's Sharon. She gets Helo to fall in love with her, to accept her. Then she gets Starbuck to trust her by helping out in Farm. Then she gets Adama and pretty much the rest of the Galatica crew to trust her by taking out the cylon fleet with that virus. Cally was sickened by what the Pegasus crew had done to a cylon. It at least shows that the Galatica crew are starting to regard at least the human model cylons as something other than just toasters.

I keep asking myself everytime something happens that involves cylons, how much of that is by chance and how much is by design? I mean the cylons let Sharon blow up a basestar, only to turn around and have that Sharon shoot Adama but worked it so another Sharon model came aboard and make so crew might come to accpet that Sharon. In the Final Cut, on the last scene, that Sharon model was surprised that the other Sharon was still alive. The 6 in Baltar's head seems intent on making Baltar a willing partner in helping the cylons and getting him to see them as more than toasters. And Baltar seems to have come to see the cylons are something more than just slaves.

I have to say that BSG is probably one the best sci-fi series that I have seen and its a shame that just because its sci-fi it doesn't have a wider audience.

[FeloniousMonk]

wow the very fact that you would think what they did was ok or natural is more disturbing than the fact that they did that in the show. The show is just that, a show. but you are a real person and you condoning rape. that is disgusting and so are you, im not even going to continue this discussion with you you sick freak.

lol wtf hahahahaha

I'm not condoning rape, I'm just denying the claim that it's unnatural. Dolphin mating rituals are almost always in the form of gang rapes. Male wolves, lions, chimps, even rodents are all known to engage in intercourse with females who would otherwise be unwilling. It happens all the time in nature. The only reason it's immoral to us is because we make it so.

Now don't think that my clinical analysis of that makes me disagree with that sense of morality. Like I said, I'm very close to a rape victim and I have long been an advocate of lifetime incarceration for convicted rapists (I would also agree with castration if not for the fact that many jailed rapists are in fact innocent victims of lying women). I don't condone it, I just don't call it an inhuman and unnatural act when scientific study of the animal kingdom proves otherwise.

[SlytherinGal]

I thought the eppy was great!

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but back in the original BSG, Baltar took "command" so to speak of a Cylon fleet called the Pegasus, do you think something like that will happen now??