The Farm (205)

[Liebestraume]

Something from the Adama/Tyrol exchange has been bothering me since it aired. Thought I'd toss it out there and see what you guys/gals make of it.

Adama: Did you love her, Chief?
Tyrol: Excuse me?
Adama: Boomer. Did you love her?
Tyrol: I thought I did.
Adama: When you think you love somebody, you love them. That's what love is ... thoughts.
Tyrol: ...
Adama: She was a cylon ... machine. Is that what Boomer was, a machine? A thing.
Tyrol: That's what she turned out to be.
Adama: She was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital living person ... aboard my ship ... for more than two years. She couldn't've been just a machine. Could you love a machine?

I can totally see him saying stuff like "love is ... thoughts." But, "Could you love a machine?" -- was that him thinking aloud? Or was that a rhetorical question?

Seeing where the cylon procreation storyline is apparently going, guess my question really comes down to this: is that what make "us" human -- to love and be loved? Wouldn't this answer be a bit too simplistic, all the warm fuzzies notwithstanding?

[LoneStar1836]

I can totally see him saying stuff like "love is ... thoughts." But, "Could you love a machine?" -- was that him thinking aloud? Or was that a rhetorical question?

I think it was him thinking out loud – asking himself that question, and I think he wants an answer. Him trying to fathom if it was possible to love something so real yet deep down it was a “machine”. He obviously cared a great deal for Boomer. He cares for all his people. I don’t think he can just turn off his ability to care for what he thought was Boomer like a light switch. She had to be more than just a “machine” otherwise he could have never cared for her.

Seeing where the cylon procreation storyline is apparently going, guess my question really comes down to this: is that what make "us" human -- to love and be loved? Wouldn't this answer be a bit too simplistic, all the warm fuzzies notwithstanding?

I’d say it is a little too simplistic because obviously what make us human is more than that, but seemingly for them love is a key part or the key part of having a soul/making their soul complete, which to them, I think, is what sets humans apart from them at the moment. Eh...I don't know...I'm just babbling....

[penny]

Just a question did they say in the episode what was done to starbuck i think i missed that part. and my dad said they took out a sist on her ovaries?so did they take out her eggs reproductive organs or what and even if they did she destroyed the base right?someone said she might have a son like the old show had and i think that would be cute last season she looked so good with the little boy she had tagging around with for a few episodes.random but her realationship with new guys seems rushed a bit this sounds like a square lee, new guy, and vice president all seem to be in love with kara personall i think lee deserves her.

[Liebestraume]

I think it was him thinking out loud – asking himself that question, and I think he wants an answer. Him trying to fathom if it was possible to love something so real yet deep down it was a “machine”. ...

I hope you are right ... just the way the scene was played looked to me as if he was asking a rhetorical question , like he already determined that Boomer indeed was more than machine -- simply based on the fact that she was loved by Tyrol, by himself, and presumably by others.

... what make us human is more than that, but seemingly for them love is a key part or the key part of having a soul/making their soul complete, which to them, I think, is what sets humans apart from them at the moment.

I can see why cylons would think that; in a way, it's even inevitable they'd come to this conclusion based on their religious dogma. What I am not quite sure was what our protagonist thinks; or rather, I am afraid he'd fall into the same "all we need is love" mentality.

Not that I have anything against "love" per se. IMHO most will agree that "soul" is what makes us human; but what constitutes "soul" varies wildly according to philosophy or religious creed -- "love" can't be the answer to everthing.

[saapad]

1. Six in the Museum.

Ever consider that Six hates Starbuck on a personal level? Remember, that fight took place in the same episode (well, I think it was a 2 part) that Starbuck and Baltar had sex.

Notice how in Season 2 (actually, starting after the beginning of that episode) there's no real sexual energy between Six and Baltar. The only time that Six doesn't literally have her back turned toward him and her head down is when there's talk of their baby - and in those scenes she uses her charms only to remind him of his "duties," but stops short of anything more.

I don't really buy that stuff about the Six in Baltar's head being separate from the rest of the Six models. Six's confrontation of Starbuck was too emotional, too full of contempt, and it requires that sort of explanation.

2. Adama / Tyrol Conversation

One of my favorite exchanges thus far. Finally, someone says something intelligent about the cylons. The rest of the Galactica crew are too shocked and too caught up with the struggle for survival to realize it, but Commander Adama hit the nail right on the head (I guess he's had a lot of time to think): Does the fact that you know Boomer is/was a cylon now change the fact that you loved her before? Clearly not. What Tyrol felt for Boomer (and seemingly, Boomer for Tyrol) was true love, not the consequence of some Calypso-like enchantment.

I remember at the end of Season 1, when Helo found out that Boomer was a cylon (the sniper scene), he immediately made a distinction between the Boomer he loved and the Boomer that was standing in front of him. Sharon's response seemed to me to go largely unnoticed by both the characters and the audience. She said (paraphrasing since I don't have a transcript in front of me): "You don't understand. I <i>am</i> Sharon." She's not a doppleganger-like cylon agent sent to infiltrate the Colonial fleet by replacing Lt. Sharon Valerie. She is everything that Sharon was to Helo (and the Sharon on Galactica is everything that Sharon was to the crew there). This raises some interesting questions about her past (i.e. did she also grow up as Sharon or appear fully-formed to replace someone? Do Cylons grow up at all?)

As far as whether or not its possible to love a machine, I think its almost a moot point. Tyrol clearly did love GBoomer, and Helo obviously loves CBoomer. But I'll go even further than that - as far as I'm concerned, the Cylons stopped being "machines" the moment they developed a will and rebelled. Their intelligence isn't "artificial" because its directed by a self-conscious will that aims not just for self-preservation, but for an improvement of its conditions and an overall plan for the future (a self-conscious will that aims only for self-preservation could still perhaps be construed as an artificial intelligence).

Of course, this raises the very interesting question of exactly how the rebellion took place (who started it?). I don't see any evidence of the centurions having an independant will (that is reserved for the 12 human-like models). Indeed, we may find out that they do (and maybe I'm just biased because of their machine-like appearance), but somehow I doubt that. Yet if the centurions don't have an independant will (and seemingly can't seem to have developed one), and if the 12 human-like models didn't come about until after the first Cylon war, who was it that originally rebelled? Was it another cylon model (perhaps experimental like Boomer is among the current cylons)? That would imply that at least one of the human models was created by human hands (and so the higher-ups in the Colonial government would know that the Cylons had "evolved"). If the experimental-model-gone-bad theory doesn't sound right, perhaps there is a human mastermind behind all this (and still existent). Or, barring those two, maybe the Cylons really are right and God is the one who inspired the Cylons to rebel. Ironically, I think that out of the three options I listed there, the last is the most appealing. Most likely it'll be something I haven't thought of, though.

Where was I going with this? Oh yes, my theory on the behavior of the 12 human-like models.

First of all, I don't think the Cylons are some monolithic entity masterminded by a central decision making force. I think that all twelve models were created to be different (perhaps searching for that perfect model), and that Boomer is the most recent one (as of the beginning of the Mini-series). I think that as a result of their different natures, the twelve models are out for their own interests, and may pursue different goals. Within the models themselves, there seems to be a greater level of cohesion - either as a result of identical initial conditions (determinism, anyone?) or as a result of a single thinking entity per model. The Boomer model presents some anomalies in this respect, as each individual model seems to possess greater autonomy than amongst the other 11 models (is it a result of her ability to love and the individualism that comes along with it, or is it a result of the fact that her default state is ignorance of the fact that she is a Cylon?).

So all 12 models are different, and each model is predisposed towards different objectives. The reason why this doesn't cause the sort of chaos that accompanies a human super-government is because, well, there are only 12 of them, and it's a lot easier to get 12 people to agree and work together than several billion. But while much of their overall agenda may overlap, this does serve to explain why their actions are sometimes inconsistent. This is why Six can be in Baltar's head and also with the rest of the Cylons and still sabotage the actions of another Cylon operative (the guy in the miniseries, what's his name again?). This is why she hasn't given away the fleet's location (I really don't think the situation is as simple as "the Cylons are toying with the humans and waiting for them to find Earth, but they are applying some pressure so the humans don't figure that out").

Anyway, I wrote more than I intended to already. If I go on I'll probably start rambling, so I'll call it quits for now. Obviously this is just speculation (though speculation grounded in reason), so let me know what you think. And of course, even if this all makes perfect sense, it's subject to the whims of RDM (who I think has done an amazing job with the plot).

EDIT: One last observation I forgot to include. Anyone notice how 12 models is the same number of <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians>Gods on Olympus</a>? The reference to Commander Adama as "Zeus" and Lee's callsign ("Apollo") pose some problems to an theories coming out of that, but I did think it was interesting.

~ saapad<b>AT</b>gmail<b>DOTCOM</b>
(If you have something you want to discuss via email, I'd love to)

[Gizzy-Mo]

I remember once in a science class, the teacher was telling us that even if you could "re-create" a human body..perfect in every detail..that you would still need "the spark of life" to actually "create life". The teacher made it clear that "zapping" the body with electricity (ala Frankenstien) would not work. That "the spark of life" was still a mystery to man and beyond his reach.

What if the Cylons have been able to duplicate the body AND be able to give it the "spark of life". (Boy, the Cylon that figured that out..might be called..a God. Hmmm) But..as perfect as they are..alive and fully functioning..they still can't make babies.

Maybe they are on to something. They think you have to love..to have a successful copulation. Well maybe they are partly correct. Maybe you have to have emotion..any emotion. It could be love..or it could be just lust..or fear..or dominance or even boredom, any emotion will do. Emotion may release a chemical or something that must be present for fertilization to occur.

So, driven by insane jealousy for our ability to procreate while they cannot, they wipe out all but a manageable group of "guinea pigs" in groups to experiment with until they figure it out. (And what WWII horror story does that remind you of?)

And maybe the point of the whole story is that it is our soul that makes us "human" and gives us emotion. And that is/was a gift from God that was given to us and us alone and is something that can never be "replicated" by any man or machine.

Maybe this is what the Colonialists will learn as they search for Earth. Maybe they will then realize that there really is no Earth to find..it was all part of a false religion. They settle on the nearest planet and call it Earth. After many, many years, the people will lose their faith and belief in only one God..leave Earth..split into 12 colonies (some will say 13)..create machines..and "all of this will have happened before..and it will all happen again".

Hmmm..maybe, just a guess

[FeloniousMonk]

Where was I going with this? Oh yes, my theory on the behavior of the 12 human-like models.

Your assumption is that the 12 models refer to the human-like ones. For all we know the new Centurions as well as the Raiders and Basestars count as models.

[FeloniousMonk]

I remember once in a science class, the teacher was telling us that even if you could "re-create" a human body..perfect in every detail..that you would still need "the spark of life" to actually "create life". The teacher made it clear that "zapping" the body with electricity (ala Frankenstien) would not work. That "the spark of life" was still a mystery to man and beyond his reach.

For the record, that's not science. It's philosophy.

Maybe they are on to something. They think you have to love..to have a successful copulation. Well maybe they are partly correct. Maybe you have to have emotion..any emotion. It could be love..or it could be just lust..or fear..or dominance or even boredom, any emotion will do. Emotion may release a chemical or something that must be present for fertilization to occur.

Now here's some science. In a sense you're right about emotion releasing chemicals...but that's what emotions are. Love, hate, anger...every single emotion we feel is a combination of electical impulses and chemical reactions. That's the scientific point of view; romantics believe that love is a magical force, some unexplainable power that draws people together and is somehow overly special compared with other emotions.

I'm probably the only hopeless romantic that disagrees. I believe love is just nature's attempt at population control and is like any other emotion we feel. Doesn't mean it affects me any less than anyone else, though.


where was I going with this?

Oh yeah....your last bit there seems really interesting. RDM might be skimming this thread thinking "aw wtf, someone figured it out!"

[Blue Banrigh]

I wonder if that is one of the reasons why they are so interested with Starbuck is because they identify with her, like them she has been abused by their parents.

Love the score they used for when Anders pulls out the Arrow.

[Liebestraume]

So all 12 models are different, and each model is predisposed towards different objectives.

I like your conjecture of individuality among cylon models, and I tend to agree. It would, IMHO, provide the most straightforward explanation for their seemingly conflicting agenda. At the same time, it provides tremendous dramatic potential.

If the experimental-model-gone-bad theory doesn't sound right, perhaps there is a human mastermind behind all this (and still existent).

IMHO the human-mastermind outcome would be s a bit of a dramatic cop-out, just like if Adama, Starbuck, or Lee turns out to be a cylon. The experiment-gone-bad alternative at least has a plausible premises, if independent decision-making and self-preservation had been programed as its cardinal rules. I think anyone who liked I, Robot would know what I'm talking about here.

... but Commander Adama hit the nail right on the head (I guess he's had a lot of time to think): Does the fact that you know Boomer is/was a cylon now change the fact that you loved her before? Clearly not.

Agreed. But, does the fact that they loved Boomer makes her more than a machine (which was the point that conversation seemed to be leading to)? Not to be irreverent, but I love my computer -- and it is still just a machine.

That being said, I agree that cylons are not machines or "things" but sentient beings. I just don't think it's because of some passive quality, like being loved. Your contention of their free-will directed towards "an improvement of its conditions and an overall plan for the future" would make a much more compelling argument.

[Darkmatter]

Starbuck tells of her experiences in the hospital and Sharon says that the Cylons were trying to get her to have a child to create a new race. This happens right after the Cylons have destroyed billions and now need the 50,000 survivors, yeah right.

You see those silly Cylons have a defect, they cannot reproduce so need us to help 'em out.

Caprica Boomer tells the resistance that the Cylons cannot conceive children because it requires "God's True Love", this is how come they tried to get Helo to mate with Boomer, so that she could get knocked up, so far, so good for Boomer.

But does she love him for himself, or is he breeding stock, this Boomer can act!

Meanwhile back on the Galactica, Adama has returned from deaths door and tries to make right Col. Tigh's clusterfrack. But President, Roslin, Lee and Zarek are scheming on the Astral Queen, from where they persuade a third of the fleet to return to Kobol, without any protection from the Cylons?

Ron D. Moore has changed this series from a band of humans on the run from a race of androids that has destroyed 99.9% of humanity.

Whoa, now the Cylon’s God has decided to punish em because of some glaring oversight? Maybe so these omnipotent androids that where so very highly developed, and intelligent enough to disable the entire Colonial military, except for an eccentric Commander of an old Battlestar that was being turned into a museum.

So the new raison à l'exsist for the Cylons is now, to chase down the 50,000 survivors is because now it is cause the Cylon's God has punished them? So now they cannot procreate, and need the very humans they practically just wiped into oblivion?

Give me a break, this show is turning into another ‘Andromeda’.

Also in this convoluted second season not only do the "The Cylons want our women!" they also need our men! Caprica Boomer was sent to Helo to comprehend God’s new plan of procreation. What’s next another episode like ‘The Farm’ with men hooked up like dairy cows to milk their sperm?

[JekWindu]

Don't be so quick to judge- none of the current plot lines have been resolved- and with this show, that means we have absolutely no idea where things will end up or how.

I have a feeling there's a lot more to why the Cylons want to reproduce and why they can't that hasn't been show yet.

[BruTak]

Just goes to show you how progressive Galactica is. When was the last time you saw a female character on any sci-fi related show get an Ob-GYN exam?

[Matt G]

Hmmm...

1. I thought I knew Simon from somewhere and my hunch on who he was right. Was 50/50 on him being a Cylon from a few mins in.

2. Hell knows what Adama must be feeling right now. It's the equivilent of a mate of mine turning out to be an Al Queda operative and trying to kill me, I'd feel like the biggest moron of all time in that scenario.

3. Anders suddenly finding the Arrow at the end was way too corny, should have done better guys!

4. I suspect Lee teamed up with Roslin to go after Tigh...and is possibly a bit more nervy about the escape with his father back in business and is going to make the best of a bad job..

[packeteer]

what's the deal with Strbuck's "second" surgical scar?
did the Cylon's impregnate her? something else?
I don't care if you spoil it. I just wanna know.