The Farm (205)

[sharky277]

Anybody else bothered by Starbuck's reasoning for attacking Dr. Cylon? When he called her Starbuck I caught it right away that would probably be the signal to her that everything was not as it seemed but the more I thought about it that doesn't make a lot of sense.

In the make-believe world she was living in she knew that Anders brought her in and that there were others there - couldn't they have called told Dr. Cylon that she is "Starbuck"?

There just seems to be so many ways the Doc could've connected the callsign to her that it was a shallow way out by the writers...

She did see him with Six remember.

[Redwall]

The whole Kara/Starbuck thing didn't bother me. What bothered me is that when Starbuck found out that Anders "died" she didn't ask for Helo or anyone else. To me that is the lazy writing since if Helo would have been dead too then we would have known that the Doc was a cylon.

I assumed Kara suspected Simon was a Cylon from the beginning and didn't want to give away information (hence the mum after slipping out "the president is a teacher" line). Although Starbuck certainly knew the Cylons knew Helo was there... so, erm, I don't know.

The whole "all you need is love" angle was sort of corny, but was saved by being simply a concise statement of what we already knew about the Cylon beliefs.

[LoneStar1836]

Heh. Daddy is/was the artistic (read: bohemian) sort, mommy the puritanical. Unhappiness ensued, culminating Daddy's early death (or abandonment of family). Mommy transplanted resentment to Little Girl, reminder of the biggest mistake (read: Daddy). Which made Little Girl remember Daddy even more fondly, hence the piano-playing. Broken fingers could be the result of either punishment by Mommy or her stern discipline against the corrupting influence of music/art/Daddy.

Yeah, I'm gonna go with that story.

That is a nice story.

I was kind of piecemealing that post together last night and forgot to complete my thought – that I didn’t think it was her father per say but that his piano was involved in whatever twisted punishment her mother was dishing out. Me and my posting of thoughts after getting up at 7:30am, driving 200 miles in 4 hr, watching BSG, and then staying up till 4am to post about it. It’s a wonder any of my post made sense.

I actually liked this episode a lot, although I'm glad to see the Caprica thread winding up.

Me too. I don’t think they could have stretched that any farther than they did. I think it was timed just right that those particular Caprica storylines were wrapped up. Now I can see them possibly returning to Caprica in the foreseeable future, but the Helo/Boomer running and Kara/arrow/Anders had run its course. Any more would have just been dragging out the storyline, imo.

I was so glad to see someone *finally* talk about the fact that Galactica-Boomer was as human to them as anyone else, until they found out she wasn't. I was so tired of the usual line (especially from Tigh) that "she's a machine, and that's all she ever was." NO! Obviously people cared for her, loved her, knew her as a friend and fellow pilot, and trusted her. It's not just cut and dry, good vs. evil. I'm so glad this was finally brought up, and it was so appropriate that Adama was the one to say it...

I absolutely agree that it’s not cut and dry about what these Cylons are. Ultimately I find them to fall on the side of evil, but Boomer and Leoben make for such sympathetic characters that I can’t help but feel for them and their “humanity”.

Tigh’s just being Tigh when he says those things. If he said something akin to what Adama said in this one, I’d be scared cause that is the last thing I’d expect to hear from him. That would be my clue to peg him as a Cylon.

People were in shock about Boomer. I don’t think they had had enough time to process those feelings in the first four episodes since hardly any time at all had passed. She had shot Adama, the man they all worship. How could she possibly be human in their eyes? This episode took place a week after the last one giving time for feelings to sink in that Boomer was more than a machine, especially for Tyrol and Adama, the two men most directly affected by her actions. Though last week’s episode showed Tyrol’s ultimate feelings for her in the end – that he cared for her. She was more than just a thing.

I really have to feel for CapBoomer who has to know what she is about to subject herself too by returning with Kara and Helo to the fleet (or in next week’s case Kobol). She loves Helo enough not to abandon him in the hopes that he won’t abandon her to the wolves if he can help it. Course her future with the Cylons doesn’t seem much brighter.

Who else thinks that this procreation for lurrve is going to end up being the cylon's undoing?

Me. If that is the only way to assure a successful conception and birth, then they are screwed (no the pun is not intended ). Boomer seems to be the only one so far capable of this. I truly think the Six in Baltar’s head loves him or she thinks she does, but I can’t see the other copies of her having such true emotions. I guess you have to worry about those men models as well, but do they really have to love the other person as deeply to have success……if not, then they could bypass the whole love thing, but maybe the love aspect is somehow connected to their desires to create beings with a true soul (if that is what they are trying to do in order to become closer to their god.) Interesting little wrench they have thrown into the Cylons’s plan I guess.

And please no pregnant Kara, no little mini-me Karas, or biological Kara children eventually running around. If there are going to be any clones making an appearance, they better be the Lee or Helo variety. I hope the writers don’t have some lame excuse as to why Kara is “special”. If they are going to make something of this, I hope it fits nicely into the rest of the story. No wild lapses into soap opera land please.

[Easter Lily]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easter Lily
Who else thinks that this procreation for lurrve is going to end up being the cylon's undoing?
Me. If that is the only way to assure a successful conception and birth, then they are screwed (no the pun is not intended ). Boomer seems to be the only one so far capable of this. I truly think the Six in Baltar’s head loves him or she thinks she does, but I can’t see the other copies of her having such true emotions. I guess you have to worry about those men models as well, but do they really have to love the other person as deeply to have success……if not, then they could bypass the whole love thing, but maybe the love aspect is somehow connected to their desires to create beings with a true soul (if that is what they are trying to do in order to become closer to their god.) Interesting little wrench they have thrown into the Cylons’s plan I guess.

It's not quite what I meant... although I can see what you're saying...
Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier on in the series, probably in the mini-series, I seem to remember Six telling Baltar that the invasion is some kind of "ethnic cleansing"... humanity has outlived its purpose and gone all corrupt and the cylons are now the "brave new world". Well, if they can only procreate by falling in love with humans, doesn't that mean that the whole ethnic cleansing agenda is now down the toilet. Won't they be having little hybrids running around? Not very homogenous... if you get my meaning...
(Just in case anyone thinks I'm being racist here, please don't go down that road okay... I'm of Asian extraction and my husband is Caucasian, so our daughter is a product of a cross-cultural combination.)
I think it will ultimately be the undoing of the cylons because their copies will eventually "turn on" them the way Caprica Boomer has, assuming that they are the large-scale conspirators that I believe them to be. I don't think the humans will ever defeat the cylons militarily so my bet's on "the love trap" to do the trick .

And please no pregnant Kara, no little mini-me Karas, or biological Kara children eventually running around. If there are going to be any clones making an appearance, they better be the Lee or Helo variety. I hope the writers don’t have some lame excuse as to why Kara is “special”. If they are going to make something of this, I hope it fits nicely into the rest of the story. No wild lapses into soap opera land please.

Hubs is convinced that Kara is pregnant or will become pregnant because if anyone has seen the something of the first series, Starbuck (Dirk Benedict) has a son through a rather mysterious woman, whom if memory serves, becomes the prodigious Dr Zee...
As for me I'm not sure... I think Dr Simon has tampered with her ovaries but what he's done exactly... your guess is as good as mine.
Dang it... I do love a good mystery...

[LoneStar1836]

It's not quite what I meant... although I can see what you're saying...
Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier on in the series, probably in the mini-series, I seem to remember Six telling Baltar that the invasion is some kind of "ethnic cleansing"... humanity has outlived its purpose and gone all corrupt and the cylons are now the "brave new world". Well, if they can only procreate by falling in love with humans, doesn't that mean that the whole ethnic cleansing agenda is now down the toilet. Won't they be having little hybrids running around? Not very homogenous... if you get my meaning...
(Just in case anyone thinks I'm being racist here, please don't go down that road okay... I'm of Asian extraction and my husband is Caucasian, so our daughter is a product of a cross-cultural combination.)

Ah, I see what you are getting at now. I was thinking more along the physical lines that if “love” was integral to their plan then they better have some other models scattered around that displayed that kind of emotion cause the Boomer models can’t do it all by themselves.

I think you are right there. I haven’t seen the mini in quite some time but that sounds correct. Interesting. If that was their goal, then they should have zero use for humans in any capacity. Though, personally I also interpret “ethnic cleansing” of humans as also doing away with pure-blooded humans so hybrids are an acceptable if not desired outcome of the breeding program they are now engaged in. I think the Cylons feel some kind of connection to humans because they were created by them even though they don’t regard them with high esteem. Breeding with them allows them to come one step closer to their god which in their minds is the same god that created humans who in turned created them. It also allows the Cylons to get the “human” race back on track so to speak and back in step with god's plan. They are trying to become better “humans” than the humans themselves. Not sure if that makes any sense except to me cause I’m not really expressing myself very well. Sorry.

ETA: They want to experience some things that are uniquely human like love, yet are incapable in their current “form”. I remembered this scene at the end of Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down:

Six: She thinks she loves him now, that she can't live without him. Her passion is making her more resourceful.
Doral: It bothers you, doesn't it?
Six: We'll get them in the end.
Doral: No, it bothers you that you've never experienced it.
Six: (chuckles) You saw the way Helo was when we took her away? He was pathetic.
Doral: I can't help wondering what it would be like to feel that intensely. Even in his anguish, he seemed... so alive.

You can see that that disturbs Six and causes her to shed a tear. I thought this was a really good scene as far as helping to understand them. I almost think the Six in Baltar's head (if a Cylon implant) has somewhat created her own agenda with Baltar and might not quite be following the Cylon playbook to the letter with him. Here we saw some actually Cylons lamenting about who they are or specifically what they aren't.

I think it will ultimately be the undoing of the cylons because their copies will eventually "turn on" them the way Caprica Boomer has, assuming that they are the large-scale conspirators that I believe them to be. I don't think the humans will ever defeat the cylons militarily so my bet's on "the love trap" to do the trick .

You would think they would worry about that possibility.

Do you mean the original models (like Boomer) will turn on the Centurions, etc. (the mechanized versions) and hope to integrate back into the human world or that the human/cylon hybrid babies will eventually turn on both the human model cylons and their mechanical counterparts?

There is absolutely no way that this will be a military victory for the Colonials. They don’t have the capacity to battle the kind of military force posed by the Cylons. Unless…….War of the Worlds movie (yeah I finally got around to seeing it last week )

Spoiler:

the Cylons contract some kind of virus from all their “mingling” with humans which in turn infects the BaseStars which seem to have a biological component to them and Boom! They are defeated. Hmm…that still doesn’t count as a military victory unless you count what sailors do on shore leave as a military contribution…..

[mikeforrest2003]

I think Zerek realizes his best chance at power is through President Roslin. He knows she's dying so he could theoretically be next in line for the Vice Presidency. Especially if he's one of the heroes opposing military takeover.

He's learned to work with the system instead of trying to destroy it. And there is of course he's rabble rousing without having as usual except with the potential for being a real hero!

I don't like the formere terrorist past bit though.

Side issue I'm glad they're giving Hatch more screen time. And sounds like he's going to get more this season.

As far as Dr. Simon I had him pegged as A Cylon from the start. Why Kara didn't figure it out sooner I can't figure out.

And that Heavy Raider did have a lot of room so you would think some of the resistance fighters would have wanted to escape Caprica and that Kara and Helo would have taken them.

[Thermonuclearboy]

The whole Zarek backstory intrigues me. Unfortunately we never got much background into what Colonial civilization was like before the Cylon invasion, but it seems to me that it wasn't all that nice. Nominally a democracy, but with a strong military presence. Zarek was also something of a celebrity political prisoner - something you don't see very often in a free society. Given the fact that our human protagonists are so quick to start fighting with each other - although that could just be the stress of surviving the death of their civilization - seems to imply that they're all not used to trusting each other. Maybe the Colonial government was on the verge of disintegrating before the Cylons did it for them.

Interesting to note that the Cylons have latched onto a religious discipline they're physically incapable of adhering to. Their God tells them to "be fruitful and multiply," but they can't. Makes me wonder how they ever stumbled onto their religion. Although we now know what they want with humans. And quite possibly what they want with Earth; I for one am convinced that the Cylons WANT the humans to find the way to Earth. Otherwise they could have destroyed the fleet long ago. But why, exactly, is still open to speculation...

[beamerxl]

When Adama was crying over Boomer's body, I think it was connected to his talk with Tyrol. I think he's realizing how much Boomer had him fooled, how much he cared for her as a person, and that if she of all people could be a Cylon, then anyone could. Anyone. That's something that's hard to handle.

I definitely think we're gonna see Cylon Starbucks. Wasn't it mentioned earlier this season that they need human DNA to create a human-form Cylon? I think Dr. Simon stole a couple of Starbuck's eggs to start making Cylon copies. As for her being "special," maybe there has to be a certain code in the DNA for it to be reproduced... kinda like the ancient gene in SG:A.

[Easter Lily]

Ah, I see what you are getting at now. I was thinking more along the physical lines that if “love” was integral to their plan then they better have some other models scattered around that displayed that kind of emotion cause the Boomer models can’t do it all by themselves.

So you think that some cylons are more emotional than others? I suppose that could be it... However, I was under the impression that Caprica Boomer had more or less, excuse the expression, "tumbled into love". That having schemed and plotted to get Helo where she wanted him, she fell "victim" to the human propensity to be emotionally involved with her procreating partner. I think that Six has also had a taste of it but because Baltar isn't exactly the monogamous type, she hasn't experienced that kind of unconditional giving over that perhaps Boomer has.

I think you are right there. I haven’t seen the mini in quite some time but that sounds correct. Interesting. If that was their goal, then they should have zero use for humans in any capacity. Though, personally I also interpret “ethnic cleansing” of humans as also doing away with pure-blooded humans so hybrids are an acceptable if not desired outcome of the breeding program they are now engaged in.

You're probably right. I'm probably seeing it from Six's manipulative point of view. She's obviously trying to feed Baltar with all these negative half-truths about humanity being completely corrupt and a race of murderers that he's almost buying it himself. If he hasn't already. I wonder how much of it for her is rhetoric and how much she actually believes herself. You make a valid point about the fact the cylons may not need to have "pure breds" to be successful in their "ethnic cleansing" efforts. The Assyrian and Babylonian empires often took exiles from the countries they invaded and inter-married with those peoples as a way to exert and maintain their political and cultural dominance. It could be the same with the cylons. It wouldn't necessarily weaken the dominant power but could be deployed as a kind of an assimilationist strategy.

I think the Cylons feel some kind of connection to humans because they were created by them even though they don’t regard them with high esteem. Breeding with them allows them to come one step closer to their god which in their minds is the same god that created humans who in turned created them. It also allows the Cylons to get the “human” race back on track so to speak and back in step with god's plan. They are trying to become better “humans” than the humans themselves. Not sure if that makes any sense except to me cause I’m not really expressing myself very well. Sorry.

No problem... I'm rather interested myself to find out more about their propaganda machine/dogma. I often wonder where they discovered this strain of monotheism when the human culture which created them is so obviously polytheistic. I wonder also if there is a human consciousness behind them, driving all this. It could be that a human or group of humans were disillusioned with where the human race was heading and decided to throw their lot in with the cylons to create a race that would be more resolute and less corruptible, to be more human than the humans ever were. Or to fulfill the potential that humans were capable of but somehow had lost their way. Perhaps there has always been a group of individuals (a political or religious minority) on the colonies who believe that it is the destiny of their race to find Earth. However, with the complacency that has overtaken that culture... they haven't felt the need to do so. Hence, they have conspired with the cylons over the decades to bring about this upheaval.

Do you mean the original models (like Boomer) will turn on the Centurions, etc. (the mechanized versions) and hope to integrate back into the human world or that the human/cylon hybrid babies will eventually turn on both the human model cylons and their mechanical counterparts?

My initial thinking... the former... but I wouldn't put it past the writers to consider the latter scenario. This is afterall Battlestar Galactica.

There is absolutely no way that this will be a military victory for the Colonials. They don’t have the capacity to battle the kind of military force posed by the Cylons. Unless…….War of the Worlds movie (yeah I finally got around to seeing it last week )

Spoiler:

the Cylons contract some kind of virus from all their “mingling” with humans which in turn infects the BaseStars which seem to have a biological component to them and Boom! They are defeated. Hmm…that still doesn’t count as a military victory unless you count what sailors do on shore leave as a military contribution…..

Well, I wouldn't write off that possibility altogether... it is definitely a lot less humanistic and far more interesting. I don't expect explosions necessarily but if the cylons can be sneaky, the sky's the limit for pesky biological entities...
I doubt that what sailors do on shore leave counts as military contribution but perhaps the navy considers what the women do for their sailors on shore leave to be much more of a military contribution.

[FeloniousMonk]

The whole Zarek backstory intrigues me. Unfortunately we never got much background into what Colonial civilization was like before the Cylon invasion, but it seems to me that it wasn't all that nice. Nominally a democracy, but with a strong military presence. Zarek was also something of a celebrity political prisoner - something you don't see very often in a free society. Given the fact that our human protagonists are so quick to start fighting with each other - although that could just be the stress of surviving the death of their civilization - seems to imply that they're all not used to trusting each other. Maybe the Colonial government was on the verge of disintegrating before the Cylons did it for them.

The Colonial government wasn't a single nation. Each of the Colonies was its' own seperate entity; they're more a United Nations type of government. They have their own laws and ways of life but agree to work together for the betterment of the species. Remember, the Cylons were originally created for use in the Colonial Wars when they used to fight each other. It was after the Cylons rebelled that humanity decided to stop fighting each other and defeat a common enemy. Remember, the Articles of Colonization were created not that long before the Cylon attacks.

Some of the colonies may have had a strong military government while others may have had very open and liberal societies. Some may have been democratic, others socialist or communist or perhaps even monarchies.

[Easter Lily]

The whole Zarek backstory intrigues me. Unfortunately we never got much background into what Colonial civilization was like before the Cylon invasion, but it seems to me that it wasn't all that nice. Nominally a democracy, but with a strong military presence. Zarek was also something of a celebrity political prisoner - something you don't see very often in a free society. Given the fact that our human protagonists are so quick to start fighting with each other - although that could just be the stress of surviving the death of their civilization - seems to imply that they're all not used to trusting each other. Maybe the Colonial government was on the verge of disintegrating before the Cylons did it for them.

When I think of Zarek, I am immediately reminded of Gerry Adams, MP for West Belfast and president of Sinn Fein. Although he denies ever having been a part of the IRA, some British and Irish state papers name him as being a major figure in the IRA in the 1970s. Fascinating stuff...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Adams

[Liebestraume]

The Colonial government wasn't a single nation. Each of the Colonies was its' own seperate entity; they're more a United Nations type of government. They have their own laws and ways of life but agree to work together for the betterment of the species. ...

Except that this "United Nations" has a permanent "Peacekeeping Force" whose sole purpose is to defend the colonies from enemies without. In this way, they resemble a single nation with a federalist government. What boggles the mind, though, is that they also seemed to have a single, and perhaps even state-sponsered, religion. Consider the implausibility of the multitude of people on these different planets ascribing to the same belief system, I am inclined to accept it as the result of compromise in formimg the central government.

Which could explain the following question

Interesting to note that the Cylons have latched onto a religious discipline they're physically incapable of adhering to. Their God tells them to "be fruitful and multiply," but they can't. Makes me wonder how they ever stumbled onto their religion.

Easter Lily suggested the possibility of a human conscience behind the cylons, and I suspect something similar. Except I don't think their status was "co-conspirator" with cylons; instead they were the original creators -- who happened to be monotheistic. Look at it this way, if you are in a religious or ethnic monority, wouldn't your top priority be to increase your numbers? As a human belief, "be fruitful and multiply" makes sense. Perhaps these humans simply created the first cylon in their own image, not knowing Pinocchio would one day evolve into something quite nasty.

[FeloniousMonk]

http://www3.telus.net/public/akamyot/chistory.htm

Unfortunatly this doesn't seem to be canocal in any way. I've seen something describing similar histories and one from a seemingly official source but I can't for the life of me remember where. If I find it I'll let y'all know.

[keshou]

Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier on in the series, probably in the mini-series, I seem to remember Six telling Baltar that the invasion is some kind of "ethnic cleansing"... humanity has outlived its purpose and gone all corrupt and the cylons are now the "brave new world". Well, if they can only procreate by falling in love with humans, doesn't that mean that the whole ethnic cleansing agenda is now down the toilet. Won't they be having little hybrids running around? Not very homogenous... if you get my meaning...I think it will ultimately be the undoing of the cylons because their copies will eventually "turn on" them the way Caprica Boomer has, assuming that they are the large-scale conspirators that I believe them to be. I don't think the humans will ever defeat the cylons militarily so my bet's on "the love trap" to do the trick .

The Cylons believe that humanity was created by god and they seem painfully aware that they are humanity's creation, not god's creation. I've always felt that the Cylons wanted to cleanse the humans down to a core group that they then to use to create hybrids that would be the next step closer to being "gods children". They are evolving. And this next evolution willl be closer to god because it would be a combination of god's original creation "humans" and the Cylons. Something they can't achieve on their own.

Like Lonestar, I think some of the Cylons are more emotional than the others. I've wondered if Boomer isn't the Cylon's "Fifth". The human models "evolved" and seem to have very different characteristics. Is there a human hand at work in this evolution as you and Liebestraume suggest? I wouldn't be surprised. Boomer almost seems to have been created as the model most capable of "love". She fell in love with Helo (as planned) but it's become the dominant force in her life (not planned. ) She fell in love with Tyrol. She was shattered that she shot Adama. All the "Sharons" kept saying "we love you Sharon" when Boomer was on their ship. I can't imagine all the "Six's" greeting each other like that.

If so - it may well be that this later model of human Cylon WILL be their Achilles heel. As the "Boomers" die their memories are downloaded into the central system. What effect does that have on all the other "Sharons" running around. Or even on the other Cylons. I don't think Six is really capable of love as much as manipulation but even she has seemed capable of having feelings. Of being hurt.

Hubs is convinced that Kara is pregnant or will become pregnant because if anyone has seen the something of the first series, Starbuck (Dirk Benedict) has a son through a rather mysterious woman, whom if memory serves, becomes the prodigious Dr Zee...
As for me I'm not sure... I think Dr Simon has tampered with her ovaries but what he's done exactly... your guess is as good as mine.

Dr. Cylon said he removed "part" of her ovaries. To run tests I guess. But if they have part of her ovaries they certainly could have her eggs. They could have also implanted her. We'll see.

I DO think there's a good chance - sorry LoneStar - that we may see some baby Karas or some CylonStarbucks before this is all over. They think she's "special", after all. And WHY, WHY is she special? WHY, WHY is Baltar special enough to be the "father" of the next generation.

This series is going to drive me crazy. But in a good way.

[dec55]

It was great to see Grace/Boomer back on the show again. I am glad she
appears to be helping the humans again. Adama really cared for Boomer...
even when he found out she was a cylon..... I think him crying over her
body lets on that he knows more than most would think. Maybe she was
a double agent all along and her shooting Adama was a mistake in her programing they did not know about?

He has never cried for anyone that intense since the show began....
franky it really surprised me.

Maybe "love" was planted into the Cylon consiousness covertly by the colonials.
And maybe Adama and Sharon were part of this plot....who knows???