The Farm (205)

[Uber]

A contradiction or a controlled being? I wonder...
I don't know that all the copies have equal knowledge of who they are or of what they're mission is. Evidence so far suggests... no... I tend to think that they are all separate personalities as a result of separate memories and separate experiences. Reminds me of the Thomas Riker/William Riker scenario...

Well we know that some were programmed to think they were human (by the season one intro that is...)

Well, we certainly don't need to look too deeply into history to know the answer to that...

LOL...

Interesting you bring that up because I thought about that as I was posting.

But I think what I mean is that will they continue to be able to kill with reckless abandon as they move closer and closer to having the deep human emotions they require to fulfill their self-perceived destiny?

Obviously we know that people can kill. And obviously we know that people can kill on a grand scale. Like you said...history is chock full of examples. But I would contend that those who were mass murders were not seeking to better themselves and fulfill a destiny they perceive is guided by God by learning about and falling in love and gaining the other traits that come with love...self sacrifice, devotion, empathy...

So as the cylons evolve and develop these kinds of deeper feelings and character traits, will they be able to reconcile murdering on a grand scale as they learn and grow in love, sympathy and so on?

[LoneStar1836]

Last week Anders made mention that they had seen other Cylons in Colonial uniform. (Now I’m going on the assumption that he was correct in this statement and they weren’t just some hapless soldiers that were killed before they could explain themselves.)

Ok. This week Boomer makes an appearance and when she does, Anders asks Helo “who’s this?” Obviously he hasn’t seen her before so……...I’m assuming then they saw/captured/killed another Cylon wearing a uniform. So there is the possibility that another model is posing as a member of the Colonial military. I know the possibility has existed all along, but in my mind, that adds a little more credence to the possibility. Anyway, I just though it was interesting that Anders had never seen Boomer before.

Guess I’m just going to have to fanwank over why Starbuck or Helo never asked him to describe what this supposed Cylon(s) in uniform looked like. Male or female? About how old? Etc. Or just hope that they did and we’ll hear about it down the road.


Hmm…as far as the interesting conversation about whether GalBoomer was a self-sufficient model or was being externally triggered…… I’m going with embedded programming that triggered certain actions and not someone elsewhere pushing the “destroy water tanks” button or the “kill Adama” button. GalBoomer was programmed to think she was human. At certain points the human programming shutdown and the embedded Cylon programming kicked in. The human side just experienced blackouts and didn’t have a clue what happened. Though she obviously had her doubts which intensified to the point of attempted suicide (which I believe was prevented subconsciously by the Cylon programming because she had yet to complete her ultimate goal of shooting Adama).

[Uber]

Last week Anders made mention that they had seen other Cylons in Colonial uniform. (Now I’m going on the assumption that he was correct in this statement and they weren’t just some hapless soldiers that were killed before they could explain themselves.)

Ok. This week Boomer makes an appearance and when she does, Anders asks Helo “who’s this?” Obviously he hasn’t seen her before so……...I’m assuming then they saw/captured/killed another Cylon wearing a uniform. So there is the possibility that another model is posing as a member of the Colonial military. I know the possibility has existed all along, but in my mind, that adds a little more credence to the possibility. Anyway, I just though it was interesting that Anders had never seen Boomer before.

Guess I’m just going to have to fanwank over why Starbuck or Helo never asked him to describe what this supposed Cylon(s) in uniform looked like. Male of female? About how old? Etc. Or just hope that they did and we’ll hear about it down the road.


Hmm…as far as the interesting conversation about whether GalBoomer was a self-sufficient model or was being externally triggered…… I’m going with imbedded programming that triggered certain actions and not someone elsewhere pushing the “destroy water tanks” button or the “kill Adama” button. GalBoomer was programmed to think she was human. At certain points the human programming shutdown and the imbedded Cylon programming kicked in. The human side just experienced blackouts and didn’t have a clue what happened. Though she obviously had her doubts which intensified to the point of attempted suicide (which I believe was prevented subconsciously by the Cylon programming because she had yet to complete her ultimate goal of shooting Adama).

Several very interesting points. Very well thought out.

Not sure about the embedded programming thing to the extent you are proposing though. In order for this to be true, the cylons would have to have known that Boomer would make it off of Caprica and back to the Galactica for starters plus they'd have to have been able to see far into the future...so I'm still kinda leaning toward an external trigger to override her for a specific mission based on current events that the cylons could not have known. I mean they know general things about future events, but they aren't omniscient. But I could be wrong. It's happened before and it'll happen again I'm sure...

Regarding Anders, that's a really good point. Why didn't they get information about what these Colonial cylons looked like? That's not only valuable intelligence, that's VITAL intelligence...especially with them returning to the fleet.

[Lightsabre]

Which could explain the following questionEaster Lily suggested the possibility of a human conscience behind the cylons, and I suspect something similar. Except I don't think their status was "co-conspirator" with cylons; instead they were the original creators -- who happened to be monotheistic. Look at it this way, if you are in a religious or ethnic monority, wouldn't your top priority be to increase your numbers? As a human belief, "be fruitful and multiply" makes sense. Perhaps these humans simply created the first cylon in their own image, not knowing Pinocchio would one day evolve into something quite nasty.[/COLOR]

Hmm, my idea is quite different.
The cylons rebelled. Why?
I think one of them developed it's own conciousness. I think this is the 'God' they keep referring to.
I think 'God' is simply the original cylon rebel!!

[Uber]

Hmm, my idea is quite different.
The cylons rebelled. Why?
I think one of them developed it's own conciousness. I think this is the 'God' they keep referring to.
I think 'God' is simply the original cylon rebel!!

That's an intriguing possibility.

We don't know a whole lot about the cylons except what the information provided at the beginning of season 1 eps and now...they were created by man...they rebelled...some are programmed to think they are human...blah blah blah

I don't remember everything about the miniseries...I remember the first scenes with Sixth and the ambassador...so perhaps their origin was covered partially there...but generally speaking, do we know WHEN the cylons were made?

Did they have full awareness from the getgo or did that come from their evolution? When did they evolve? How long after they evolved did they come to the belief that they must annihilate humanity?

I'm intrigued by your idea about perhaps the first aware cylon became their god.

[Easter Lily]

But I think what I mean is that will they continue to be able to kill with reckless abandon as they move closer and closer to having the deep human emotions they require to fulfill their self-perceived destiny?

Obviously we know that people can kill. And obviously we know that people can kill on a grand scale. Like you said...history is chock full of examples. But I would contend that those who were mass murders were not seeking to better themselves and fulfill a destiny they perceive is guided by God by learning about and falling in love and gaining the other traits that come with love...self sacrifice, devotion, empathy...

So as the cylons evolve and develop these kinds of deeper feelings and character traits, will they be able to reconcile murdering on a grand scale as they learn and grow in love, sympathy and so on?

Well, it's a very interesting paradox pertaining to the humanizing of the cylons... And one that I think I would like to see explored. Is it possible to be more human than humans... Well, it all depends what you think being human means. Actually I'm glad you brought this up... it's reminded me of something that I was going to add to one of my earlier posts.
Dr Whovians will know what I'm talking about when I refer to the Daleks, cold, calculating machine from which emotions have been stripped and are designed to be the ultimate killing machine. Their creator believed that emotions are a weakness... it impairs judgement and hampers the ability to act decisively. A lack of emotions is supposedly able to make them superior.

Spoiler:

When one of these creatures was as it were "switched on" by the Doctor's companion, it regenerated but with the capacity for feeling because it absorbed human DNA as a by-product. Not long afterwards, this creature self-destructs because it is now "weakened" by feelings and cannot fulfil its raison de'tre, which is to destroy all other living creatures.

Initially I did perhaps see some similarities between the Daleks and the cylons but having thought over some of the points raised by others here, I'm now not so sure.
Part of this uncertainty comes from the fact that we don't really know what the cylons' ultimate aim is... they desire to procreate more out of obedience than for need. They seem to be anxious for the humans to find earth but why? At times, they have a desire to help, at other times they seem hellbent on hindering... And there is also the matter of how much of what they say about themselves can be trusted?

From all initial appearances, cylons do not apparently believe that emotions will hinder their ability to achieve their ends. They do need it, so we are told, to procreate effectively. It is evidently part of their quest to become the heirs of humanity. Some of them are capable of greater feeling than the others. So where does that leave us...
It's interesting that Six eggs Baltar by saying that humanity is defined by its propensity to kill... whether it's something she really believes in or whether it's the manipulation talking... *shrugs shoulders* But maybe the cylons are proving that they are true children of humanity by their apparent ruthlessness in taking life...
While I agree that most mass murderers are not motivated by love and at least in our reality, many have been motivated by the belief that they are on a mission from God. That may serve to suppress their better feelings.
I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think having feelings or the lack of it is always a factor in murder. One of the thing that always surprises people about terrorists is that many of them are ordinary people with families. There are many reasons that drive people to murder and love is often one of them.

Sorry if I'm not making sense...

[LoneStar1836]

Not sure about the embedded programming thing to the extent you are proposing though. In order for this to be true, the cylons would have to have known that Boomer would make it off of Caprica and back to the Galactica for starters plus they'd have to have been able to see far into the future...so I'm still kinda leaning toward an external trigger to override her for a specific mission based on current events that the cylons could not have known. I mean they know general things about future events, but they aren't omniscient. But I could be wrong. It's happened before and it'll happen again I'm sure...

I know the embedded program is rather contingent on them “knowing” what events are going to take place so that is a good point and a good reason to have some kind of external control over this particular Boomer.

How far reaching could this control be? I guess it would have to be another Cylon hidden in the fleet unless they are able to send signals over vast distances. But then how does someone on a Base Star know what’s going on on Galactica? I guess that is where another embedded Cylon posing as military would come in. Maybe he/she was the one that planted the bomb on Boomer’s Raptor in “Water” and the one triggering her. *shrug* I think valid arguments could be made for both sides and probably moreso for the theory that someone was controlling Boomer.

How did they know that Baltar would make it off of Caprica? What would be the point of implanting a Six chip in him (if that is indeed what it is and he’s not just crazy) unless there was some certainty that he would escape from Caprica with Boomer.

The Cylons talk a good game when it comes to them saying that “all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again” blah blah blah. They’d make great salesmen cause I seem to somewhat buy into that. I do think that they are manipulating certain events though in order to play into “their” story – they have an idea of how they want things to play out, so they act accordingly to see that they do.

So I guess it’s kind of a toss-up for me. Her being triggered externally makes the most logical sense, but like I said, I’m kind of buying into their religious mumbo jumbo about how events are destined.

[Uber]

Well, it's a very interesting paradox pertaining to the humanizing of the cylons... And one that I think I would like to see explored. Is it possible to be more human than humans... Well, it all depends what you think being human means. Actually I'm glad you brought this up... it's reminded me of something that I was going to add to one of my earlier posts.
Dr Whovians will know what I'm talking about when I refer to the Daleks, cold, calculating machine from which emotions have been stripped and are designed to be the ultimate killing machine. Their creator believed that emotions are a weakness... it impairs judgement and hampers the ability to act decisively. A lack of emotions is supposedly able to make them superior.

Spoiler:

When one of these creatures was as it were "switched on" by the Doctor's companion, it regenerated but with the capacity for feeling because it absorbed human DNA as a by-product. Not long afterwards, this creature self-destructs because it is now "weakened" by feelings and cannot fulfil its raison de'tre, which is to destroy all other living creatures.

Initially I did perhaps see some similarities between the Daleks and the cylons but having thought over some of the points raised by others here, I'm now not so sure.
Part of this uncertainty comes from the fact that we don't really know what the cylons' ultimate aim is... they desire to procreate more out of obedience than for need. They seem to be anxious for the humans to find earth but why? At times, they have a desire to help, at other times they seem hellbent on hindering... And there is also the matter of how much of what they say about themselves can be trusted?

From all initial appearances, cylons do not apparently believe that emotions will hinder their ability to achieve their ends. They do need it, so we are told, to procreate effectively. It is evidently part of their quest to become the heirs of humanity. Some of them are capable of greater feeling than the others. So where does that leave us...

While I agree that most mass murderers are not motivated by love and at least in our reality, many have been motivated by the belief that they are on a mission from God. That may serve to suppress their better feelings.
I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think having feelings or the lack of it is always a factor in murder. One of the thing that always surprises people about terrorists is that many of them are ordinary people with families. There are many reasons that drive people to murder and love is often one of them.

Sorry if I'm not making sense...

I thought about that too and that's an excellent point...

I think that's why I did my level best to focus on their need to evolve into loving beings with the "mission from their god" thing as merely the motivation for their actions...

I keep thinking about the Replicators here...they wanted to correct the mistake in Reese and thought they did so with Fifth...but he was too human, with human emotions and was therefore a mistake...

But I like your question and I think it's a good one: Is it possible to be more human than humans...

I'd like to add on the following to that thought...by becoming more human, do they then put themselves in a situation where there are elements of cylondom that are too human and are therefore corrupt and need to be annihilated. Which is one of the reasons I asked is LOVE the cylons' Achilles heel? They need it to fulfill their destiny but in doing so they become more human and therefore more like the "corrupt" beings they kill...

[Uber]

I know the embedded program is rather contingent on them “knowing” what events are going to take place so that is a good point and a good reason to have some kind of external control over this particular Boomer.

How far reaching could this control be? I guess it would have to be another Cylon hidden in the fleet unless they are able to send signals over vast distances. But then how does someone on a Base Star know what’s going on on Galactica? I guess that is where another embedded Cylon posing as military would come in. Maybe he/she was the one that planted the bomb on Boomer’s Raptor in “Water” and the one triggering her. *shrug* I think valid arguments could be made for both sides and probably moreso for the theory that someone was controlling Boomer.

How did they know that Baltar would make it off of Caprica? What would be the point of implanting a Six chip in him (if that is indeed what it is and he’s not just crazy) unless there was some certainty that he would escape from Caprica with Boomer.

The Cylons talk a good game when it comes to them saying that “all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again” blah blah blah. They’d make great salesmen cause I seem to somewhat buy into that. I do think that they are manipulating certain events though in order to play into “their” story – they have an idea of how they want things to play out, so they act accordingly to see that they do.

So I guess it’s kind of a toss-up for me. Her being triggered externally makes the most logical sense, but like I said, I’m kind of buying into their religious mumbo jumbo about how events are destined.

Futhermore, they seem to push for prophecy to be fulfilled if you will in some areas...but then it seemed as though Sixth on Caprica really was trying to kill Kara to prevent her from bringing the arrow back to Kobol. So although they believe the prophecy will be fulfilled, they only support parts of it. Either that or the prophecy has someone trying to kill the one sent to retrieve the arrow and they were fulfilling their role...

[Easter Lily]

Hmm, my idea is quite different.
The cylons rebelled. Why?
I think one of them developed it's own conciousness. I think this is the 'God' they keep referring to.
I think 'God' is simply the original cylon rebel!!

I have considered that possibility previously but backed down from that theory because I can't see them developing a such a sophisticated philosophical base and mythos in just 40 years.
That and the fact that I don't believe a creature can evolve without outside help...

[LoneStar1836]

Futhermore, they seem to push for prophecy to be fulfilled if you will in some areas...but then it seemed as though Sixth on Caprica really was trying to kill Kara to prevent her from bringing the arrow back to Kobol. So although they believe the prophecy will be fulfilled, they only support parts of it. Either that or the prophecy has someone trying to kill the one sent to retrieve the arrow and they were fulfilling their role...

Hmm never thought about that - why Six attacks Starbuck in the museum. That really doesn’t make any sense. If Starbuck is “special,” then why try to kill her? (Unless Six was just trying to capture her.) And on top of that why try to prevent her from bringing back the arrow if indeed they do want the humans to find Earth? I hope RDM eventually has a good explanation for that.

[Easter Lily]

Hmm never thought about that - why Six attacks Starbuck in the museum. That really doesn’t make any sense. If Starbuck is “special,” then why try to kill her? (Unless Six was just trying to capture her.) And on top of that why try to prevent her from bringing back the arrow if indeed they do want the humans to find Earth? I hope RDM eventually has a good explanation for that.

I have a theory for that... I think it's part of the whole smoke and mirrors thing. They do want the colonists to find earth... but they don't want the colonists to think that they want them to find earth... Throw them off their guard or off the scent... that sort of thing. What's one copy to them, right?
Make sense?

Subterfuge... yes... that's the word I was looking for...

[Rian]

First of all, hi! I'm new at the forums. I've been reading things for a couple of months, but i decided it's about time to register... so here i am.

After seeing the last episode, I was somewhat disappointed. It's definitely one of the worst episodes in my opinion. Of course, we meet a new cylon model, but i think the miraculous return of Boomer is a bit... too miraculous. I really think 20 eps/season is a bit too much. I loved the last season where all episodes were really intense; lots of action; but the last 2 episodes were really missing something. Anyway that's what I think about it.

[Uber]

First of all, hi! I'm new at the forums. I've been reading things for a couple of months, but i decided it's about time to register... so here i am.

After seeing the last episode, I was somewhat disappointed. It's definitely one of the worst episodes in my opinion. Of course, we meet a new cylon model, but i think the miraculous return of Boomer is a bit... too miraculous. I really think 20 eps/season is a bit too much. I loved the last season where all episodes were really intense; lots of action; but the last 2 episodes were really missing something. Anyway that's what I think about it.

First off...Welcome to the GW forum! I hope you have fun here...

Secondly, what miraculous return? Sharon took off from the museum and left Helo and Kara there without a means of escape but she didn't leave the planet. I see nothing farfetched about her claim to have been tracking them...

[Easter Lily]

First of all, hi! I'm new at the forums. I've been reading things for a couple of months, but i decided it's about time to register... so here i am.

After seeing the last episode, I was somewhat disappointed. It's definitely one of the worst episodes in my opinion. Of course, we meet a new cylon model, but i think the miraculous return of Boomer is a bit... too miraculous. I really think 20 eps/season is a bit too much. I loved the last season where all episodes were really intense; lots of action; but the last 2 episodes were really missing something. Anyway that's what I think about it.

While I didn't think it was one of the stronger episodes, it certainly had its moments. I rather suspected that it wouldn't be quite the whirlwind event that was the first four... It didn't hang together quite as well... and as some of the others have said, I'm more than happy that the Caprica thread has wound down. As much as I like Helo, I'm rather more interested in the goings on of the Galactica.

Sorry to hear you didn't like the last two but I wouldn't write off the 20 eps season yet... From what I've read I think it'll get better. Season 1 had its less than stellar eps as well so I won't worry. Keep posting though... the more the merrier...
I await next week's episode with much eagerness.