Hero (308)

[Kimon]

I won't quote everything you wrote Beeblebrox but, you do make a few good points.

First and foremost, no seasoned military man would believe that sending a scout ship would cause an all out war. It's hard to accept that someone that's been in the military for 45 years would think that.

Second, the show is indeed taking an "interesting" turn. It's no more about the Cylons wanting to destroy humanity and the latter fighting a war of survival with very little hope. It's about "look how evil humans are and the Cylons wiping them out is only justice".

As for the Iraq comparisons and left-vs-right stuff, my preference is to leave them out of a SciFi TV discussion, unless used to put something in an actual historical context. Otherwise, it's not conducive and focus is shifted from the topic at hand to the political hot-issue of the day. YMMV

[Nolamom]

This kind of transparent lefty writing is irksome because it not only is standard Hollywood tripe but it does not fit with the overarching idea that the colonies were wiped out by an evil race of robots intent on destroying their creators.

Read = your take on the overarching plot. Not necessarily the view of the producers. Good to remember that.

[GateShip One]

This is an excellent summary and you are to be commended for it. I too saw this as a character dev ep but here is my problem with it. Adama is not the kind of guy who is going to be so naive as to think that a scout mission would result in a nuclear holocaust and worse yet, that HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. An experienced military man would know that scouting the enemy's ability to wage ware is an essential responsibility of the military and of the civilian leadership.

I disagree. He's able to see this all from hind-sight. If nothing happened, then sure, the Cylons didn't care about the Colonials in their territory. But the fact of the matter is that after that incident, the Cylons did eventually attack and destroy the Colonies.

From Adama's point of view: Failed scouting mission into Cylon space -> Cylon attack on the Colonies. Adama isn't privy to the inner thoughts of the Cylons like we the viewers are; he has a lot less information about their motives than we do.

Also remember Adama's conversation with Athena in season 2 where he asks the question, "why do we deserve to survive?" mirroring his speech in the mini-series. The topic of humans being violent, killing each other (as Adama thought he did to Bulldog), etc can all still point to Adama's failed mission as being at least a partly responsible for the Cylon's attack. I'm sure the Cylons were able to see the Valkyrie destroying its own stealth ship in order to keep it from being captured by the Cylons; they could see the violence in the human race, killing their own kind.

[lethalfang]

This is an excellent summary and you are to be commended for it. I too saw this as a character dev ep but here is my problem with it. Adama is not the kind of guy who is going to be so naive as to think that a scout mission would result in a nuclear holocaust and worse yet, that HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. An experienced military man would know that scouting the enemy's ability to wage ware is an essential responsibility of the military and of the civilian leadership.

Case in point, look how everyone beat up on Bush and the CIA for not being prepared for an attack by al qaeda. His failure to "connect the dots" was a constant drumbeat from his enemies for years after 9/11. We the people expect our government, the intelligence community, and the military to KNOW what our enemies are up to so as to better be able to defend us.

No, what I saw in this ep was the writers trying to do the "moral equivalency, thing again just like the last episode. I.E. we are really no better than the enemy. We may think that we were unfairly wiped out but it turns out that a scout mission was what precipitated a global thermonuclear holocaust! GIVE ME A FRACKIN' BREAK!

It is simply astounding to me that the writing on this show has turned 180 degrees from its original pro-military, good vs. evil underpinnings. What the writers are trying to do is not develop Adama's character but to imply that eeevil admirals somewhere were plotting to start a war with the Cylons in order to advance the military industrial complex (read: Bush and his generals started the war in Iraq for oil, etc.). This kind of transparent lefty writing is irksome because it not only is standard Hollywood tripe but it does not fit with the overarching idea that the colonies were wiped out by an evil race of robots intent on destroying their creators.

The whole idea that the colonies were responsible for their own destruction because they did a minor provocation of the Cylons is like saying that a woman is responsible for her own rape because she allowed the guy to get to first base with her. She brought it on herself.

WRONG!!! The Cylons are responsible for wiping out mankind and that level of genocide should be greeted with moral certitude. Adama would KNOW that he was right to find out what the Cylons were up to, he would KNOW that the admirals were right to do a spy mission, he would KNOW that it is his responsibility as a leader of the military to defend his countrymen, and he would KNOW that if doing any of the above resulted in a first strike from the enemy that it was the ENEMY that was responsible for the slaughter not his own actions.

Bottom line, while Adama's response was not in character for a seasoned and wise military leader, it is in character for a bunch of wimpy leftist writers who clearly think America is at fault for the rise in Islamic jihadism and they want to try to make a point of it through the bully pulpit of a popular television. The problem is, BSG used to be a favorite of conservatives and the military because it reflected the importance of a strong defense. It is losing that audience and well it should. The show started with a genocide of the first order and the idea that to survive, the enemy had to be not only defended against but destroyed, was a key element of the plot.

The last two episodes have totally undermined that whole notion and it is disappointing to see.

Absolutely, totally, disagree.
This episode was not about who was right or who was wrong, or that humans were evil for sending a scouting ship, or that humans deserved to be wiped out for a minor provocation.
The episode is about Adama's line of thought, and a theory, that Cylon's massive attack MIGHT NOT have been TOTALLY out of the blue.
Roselin had an excellent response to the effect of, "for every day we've done thousands of good things and bad things, this may just be one drop in the bucket that paves the way..."
Again, I cannot stress enough that, the Season 3 isn't making a statement of who is right and who is wrong. It's asking a question for YOU to CONSIDER. and you should come up with your own answers for these questions.
Don't blame people who ask the question.

[Beeblebrox]

Absolutely, totally, disagree.
This episode was not about who was right or who was wrong, or that humans were evil for sending a scouting ship, or that humans deserved to be wiped out for a minor provocation.
The episode is about Adama's line of thought, and a theory, that Cylon's massive attack MIGHT NOT have been TOTALLY out of the blue.
Roselin had an excellent response to the effect of, "for every day we've done thousands of good things and bad things, this may just be one drop in the bucket that paves the way..."
Again, I cannot stress enough that, the Season 3 isn't making a statement of who is right and who is wrong. It's asking a question for YOU to CONSIDER. and you should come up with your own answers for these questions.
Don't blame people who ask the question.

Lethal,

Fair enough but here is the problem with your analyses. NOT ONCE DID THE WRITERS GIVE US THE ALTERNATIVE VIEW TO WHICH I AM REFERRING! If your assertion was correct and they are simply offering a variety of options for us to ponder, why only offer the leftist view and ignore the right-wing view?


VIEW 1a: We heard all about how Adama was convinced that he precipitated the war. (This is one of the current mantras in the MSM about the Islamic threat - if we just had left them alone they would have left us alone).
VIEW 1b: We heard that the Admiralty was at fault not Adama. (this is another of the MSMs talking points - eevil leaders went to war in Iraq for personal reasons and should have left well enough alone.)
VIEW 1c: We heard Rosalyn's theory that you quote above. The idea that everybody does good and bad things and this particular thing was one of the bad things but hey, we do good things too (although she didn't offer an example). This is also a commonly held belief in liberal leaning parts of the world - the idea that there is no moral black and white. Everything is a shade of grey and even crimes on the scale of what al Qeada or Saddam committed are no better or worse than those committed by America.

OK, so fine, the writers presented us with these three liberal viewpoints.

What happened to the obvious counterpoint to Adama's view that the Admirials were right in their actions and that the CYLONS are actually responsible for the holocaust?

We should have heard something like this from Rosalyn:

"Bill, it is now clear that the Cylons were building up a first strike capability and it was the Admiralty, your, and Bulldog's responsibility to determine if that was the case. Regrettably, you were unable to ascertain that they were intent on wiping us all out. Nevertheless, by their own actions the Cylons demonstrate every day that they are evil personified. THEY started this war not you. So stop all this PC moral relativism crap and go out and kill them before they kill all of us. Oh, and by the way, when are you going to eject that worthless XO of yours out an airlock for the treason he committed on last week's episode?"

[Beeblebrox]

Read = your take on the overarching plot. Not necessarily the view of the producers. Good to remember that.

Thanks for the condescension but I just have to ask, have you ever watched the show??!!! You're saying that the view of the producers is NOT about the Cylon's plan to wipe out mankind? Maybe you're right and this is not the overarching story arc but if that is the case, how do you explain the opening title sequence that shows the Cylons wiping out the colonies? If the producers don't believe that the underlying theme of the series is that the Cylons have a plan to erase all traces of humanity then why do we read the following words at the beginning of every episode?:

"The Cylons were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many copies. And they have a plan."

Read any synoposis of the series written to get people up to speed and the first paragraphs will be about the Cylon intention of destroying the human race.

Maybe I'm missing something but I think the producers intend for the viewer to believe that the colonies were wiped out by an evil race of robots intent on destroying their creators.

Or maybe you think that killing billions of innocent people for no other reason than they are members of the human race, is not evil?

[shernernum]

The opening credits say they have a plan, they don't say what the plan exactly is, initially it seemed like the plan was to destroy mankind, but yet they wanted to be impregnated by them as well. They were harvesting women on Caprica, they are obviously not as hell bent on destroying all humanity as we thought they were....since although being oppressive on New Caprica, there was no out and out destruction. The credits say nothing about what the plan is, they just say "they have a plan". It is pretty apparent that we are not privy to the entire plan as of yet, in fact, who knows if we really know any of it. It is at some level religious, some level strategic, some level revenge related. But, to say that the destruction of mankind is the "plan", is putting to cart a little before the horse given all the information that has been shared with us at this point.

PS. I am not saying that killing billions is just an unimportant event...I'm just saying that they could have very easily finished the job and they haven't as of yet. Not to mention we really don't know anything about the other 5 models yet.

[Beeblebrox]

Clearly either the plan encompasses the destruction of the human race or the Cylons "mistakenly" infiltrated the colonies, got the codes from Baltar, and "accidently" nuked every colonial city. Apparently if their plan does not include total annihilation of humanity then they are also "accidentally" trying to destroy the fleet as well.

As for the impregnation story line, my guess is that this was not part of the original destruction of mankind plan unless they KNEW that some humans would survive the nuclear holocaust and decided to use the survivors for their diabolical schemes.

Regardless, while we don't know their whole plan, we know that part of the plan was to destroy humanity and that is all I have been saying.

[Scyld]

It is simply astounding to me that the writing on this show has turned 180 degrees from its original pro-military, good vs. evil underpinnings.

The show has never been about this, dude, and I am at a loss as to how you could have watched three seasons of it (including the miniseries) and have ever thought this. If you watch Battlestar Galactica expecting something as simplistic as a pro-military, good vs evil show, you will ever and always been disappointed. If that's what you're looking for, watch SG-1.

[Beeblebrox]

The show has never been about this, dude, and I am at a loss as to how you could have watched three seasons of it (including the miniseries) and have ever thought this. If you watch Battlestar Galactica expecting something as simplistic as a pro-military, good vs evil show, you will ever and always been disappointed. If that's what you're looking for, watch SG-1.

Well, of course I watched the show for all three seasons and saw the mini-series (and was working at an ABC affiliate when the original series debuted, BTW). I still have the same ideological views and the same tastes for SF that I had last year when I loved the show and yet, I totally despised the writing these last two episodes because they appear to be written by morons. The show has taken a decidedly absurd turn from the first two seasons that I loved where Adama was taking names and kicking butt (because that is what a wise and seasoned military man does in the face of threat of extinction.)

What you label as "simplistic" is, in fact, a high concept upon which the new series (at least until the last two episodes) was based. Granted, it is important for the "good guys" to question their motives, to be shown to be human and fallible, and so on. That is not what I am criticizing. What I am pointing out is that the writers are letting their lefty skirts show in a way that is out of character for the series by making leftist (and predictable) ideological statements about the military, about civilian leadership, about right and wrong. Ho hum.

"Simplistic" of course, is a silly term given that it is VERY difficult, especially in Hollywood these days, to write a script that is pro-military and has the cojones to exhibit moral certitude. I maintain that the simple, easy out is to go the moral relativistic route that we have seen in the last two eps. This is what even the really good shows on network TV from LOST to 24, to Alias, to you name it, do. Writers and producers are simply not up to the task of defining and presenting a complex issue like moral clarity in the face of evil anymore. Gray is an easy color to paint with because it requires no effort at balance and finesse. With gray writing, you can throw your prose around with abandon and as long as it is the same basic message that all your peers peddle, no worries. To me THAT is simplistic.

To buttress my point, the following commentary was made today over at National Review Online by the esteemed writer and erstwhile BSG fan, Jonah Goldberg:

BSG & The Weakness of the West
"For all the commentary about Battlestar Galactica lo these last couple months, I must say that I thought last Friday's episode was in many respects the most depressing. I found it enjoyable on a lot of levels. But at the moral-political level it was a nightmare. To recap: it's revealed that Admiral Adama once led a "black-op" to investigate whether or not the Cylons were preparing for war. He sent a stealth pilot past the agreed-upon armistice line. The ship was fired upon and a couple years later the Cylons returned, murdering billions of humans in an attempt to completely wipe out the entire human race.
From this set of facts, Adama concludes it's all his fault because he led the mission that proved the human race really were "war mongers" in the eyes of the Cylons.

I don't want to use a lot of philosophical or literary lingo here, but this is really stooooooopid. Let's say I've been feuding with my neighbor a lot. We've called a draw and built a tall fence to avoid each other. But I don't trust him and I think he may be up to something. So, I peek over the fence. Maybe I even climb over it and look around his back yard for a minute. When my neighbor sees this his immediate response is to get a hatchet and slaughters my entire family, including my relatives in other homes far away. Clearly: It's all my fault!

What is so depressing about this is that Ronald Moore and the other creators of BSG seem to think that "instigating" a conflict in any way assigns the moral responsibility to the instigator. If I step on a psychopath's toe, it's my fault when he buries a ballpoint pen in my forehead. Or, to be fair, they think this is a reasonable, morally serious view. And since they believe it's their job to illuminate the issues in the war on terror, it cannot be denied that they think this is a serious position in the debate over that conflict.

Again: This is really stooooooopid. The idea that the human race had it coming from the Cylons is moral flapdoodle (and flatly unbelievable; the creators seem to think decent humans would be deeply conflicted about declaring total war on a bunch of artificial lifeforms who slaughtered 99% of humanity). Similarly, the suggestion that the we are solely to blame morally for the war on terror because a bunch of psychopaths take offense at what we do is idiotic. Sure, we can debate whether this or that policy is defensible, wise, just etc. But this "Why do they hate us?" piffle is so morally unserious it's horrifying how widely held it is. It's also incredibly vain. It assumes that everything is about us — that terrorists aren't fully human moral actors and therefor responsibility for their actions lies with us.

But, you see, these people choose to cut off heads. They should be judged by that choice, we shouldn't.

Wouldn't it be nice if the rest of the world spent time making allowances for us this way? Maybe it'd be a lot better if people in Karachi and Cairo sat around terrified that they might provoke those crazy Americans again? And, if we attacked them, they'd immediately beat themselves up with questions about "what did we do wrong?" and "why do they hate us?" Of course, I don't want the world to live in terror of the US, but it's better than the alternative. "

[hoof]

IMO, Johan Goldberg is applying his interpretation on the events of Galactica. Adama might think that he's responsible for the attacks on the colonies, but that by no means makes him right. That's the beauty of BSG, things characters say aren't necessarily "truths" or intended to be statements on present-day events. How does Adama thinking that what he did was wrong make a statement about anything other than him thinking what he did was wrong?

Unless someone completely inserts their opinion into the episode, I see nowhere stating that Adama's actions actually *did* provoke the war. There is no evidence anywhere that the cylons used this event to start the war. Adama thinks so, but Roslyn does not. Who is right? Again, the *character* thinks something, yet articles like Goldberg's imply that the story is trying to make some sort of political statement.

With the Cylon occupation and the suicide bombings, at least there was some grounding that there was a political statement. Not here. Adama is one character. He's a major character, but so is Roslyn. Roslyn does not think the war was started by this action. Does her opinion carry less weight? What makes Adama's belief turn into a statement by the show, but not Roslyn's?

Sorry, but I simply don't see how this episode was making a statement, left or right.

[lunarleviathan]

Adama was correct to conclude that he may have started the war. If you actually take into account the Cylons view of the human race, wouldn't you feel especially guilty that you were the Commander of the first mission (assuming it was, or at least that it was as far as Adama is aware) to cross into Cylon territory? The Cylons view humans as warmongers, and Adama realises he commited an act of war in the Cylons eyes. It only makes sense to feel the burden of responsibility. Afterall, the Cylons are not humans, so it's fair to believe that they would be capable of coming to such a wild decision as genocide over just a simple intrusion into their space.

[Ojos]

I think the problem Beeblebrox is running into is something we call "cognitive dissonance." He's clinging to the idea that painting in only black and white makes a show daring. The thing is, presenting characters who are only good and only evil makes them caricatures. Show me anyone out there who's perfectly good, or perfectly evil, and I'll show you a person you clearly don't know well enough. Part of BSG is to show us characters we relate to on some level or another. Imperfection is part of that process.

The attitude in the media today is quite clearly against a benevolent military. You'll never hear about the new water system built by the Army Corps of Engineers, or how people are able to go about their business with less of a fear about whether or not they're going to get their head cut off. That's irrelevant to the show, however. RDM and company have already shown they're willing to buck convention. When was the last time you saw a borderline rape scene on cable TV? How about somebody waking up from a 3-way? If you think the coolness towards the military in the media has been motivating the writing over the past few years, then I don't know what to tell you.

I said before, in some Helo thread or another, that you aren't interested in discussion. You've continued that trend today. You're complaining about the quality of the show and playing the victim card. That just isn't the case. The show is going in the direction the writers want to take it. If that isn't the same direction you're headed, then feel free to watch the show and maybe have your views challenged. It isn't a threat. Nobody will think any less of you for changing your views. If you're more interested in watching something that fits your black and white view, though, there are other shows that you might find more enjoyable.

I'll even repeat myself for you: this show is not about blacks and whites. You say painting with gray is simplistic? That it allows you to whatever you want without compromising the character? Fine. Your view, however narrow it may be, is your view. My view, however, is that black and white is far beyond simplistic. Presenting a perfect good guy and a perfect bad guy is just using caricatures. I don't get drawn into a show when its two characters who are unrealistic even within the context of the fictional world they exist in. I like when characters have to compromise their morals to get something done. I like when a bad guy does the right thing once in a while, or questions whether he's going too far. You're equating moral certitude with moral correctness/righteousness/whatever. Believe it or not, you can be 100% certain that something is the right action, and be 100% wrong.

So to sum it up for you, Beeblebrox: You want caricatures of people who exhibit perfect good and perfect evil. You claim that the quality of the show is diminished for not doing so, and you claim that it would be daring to follow the old format of absolute good and evil. None of these views are compatible with viewing BSG, as you're blocking out the message and complaining that the show is going downhill. My solution: Keep an open mind, stop looking at things in black and white, and for the love of God stop being afraid of letting the show have you question your beliefs. Keep them if you want, but a belief that is never questioned is the flimsiest of all.

[Miracle_007]

...Believe it or not, you can be 100% certain that something is the right action, and be 100% wrong.

Wow, what a powerful, eye-opening statement. If all we thought for a moment using this line of reason maybe the world would be a better place to live.

[ShadowMaat]

I think that the Cylon Plan, like the show itself, is evolving. Maybe the original plan involved wiping out humanity, but I'm not sure that's the case any more. There has been a schism among the Cylons and some of them now want to try living with the humans. They may not be very good at it, but that doesn't change the fact that not ALL of the Cylons are interested in seeing an end to the human race.

I'm not going to get drawn into the semantics cat-fight over what it all means, though. I'm happy enough- for now- to wait until the producers tell me themselves rather than choosing to paint their words in specific shades of black and white and tell everyone what they're saying.

The nice thing about those opening words (the Ultra-condensed History of the Cylons) is that while they're somewhat specific... they're also vague and can be made to seem specific to a variety of different scenarios.

I'll be interested to see if D'anna causes another schism and a faction splits off holding the belief that "reincarnation" keeps them away from God/Cylon heaven. That'd be one way to whittle down the population.