Hero (308)

[hoof]

Huginn,
I think you hit the nail on the head as far as analyzing the episode.
As far as DNA for everyone, there's no reason to assume it would take a
huge amount of space. Take passwords. A typical password scheme takes
the password, and munges it down to a 32-bit number. The odds of two
passwords yielding the same 32-bit number are very small, unless the
munging algorithm is flawed.
To store a DNA "checksum", one would do a DNA analysis technique like
electrophoresis (the usual technique used to see if you're related to
someone, or if you're DNA matches DNA found at a crime scene).
Standardize such a test so that it results in the same pattern every
time for the same DNA. Record certain parameters, and use those to
generate a list of numbers that can be munged into a
32bit/64bit/whatever number, one for each person in the military.
Another example of this is fingerprint ID. No computer system in the
world would be able to store bitmap images of every criminal's
fingerprints (or at least no computer in the late 80's and early 90's,
back when computer fingerprinting started), yet using analysis, and
storing a few numbers per print, one can fit it into a reasonable
space. Many crimes were solved using such techniques.
My point is that a DNA match could be found for Bulldog w/o requiring
anything more than what we have today and w/o a huge amount of storage.
Storing even 100 bytes per person, and assuming 10 million people, you
only need 1 gigabyte of space. Compare that to the 500-700gig hard
drives found today. Heck, a CD is 6/10ths that size.
Thus I argue that holding this against the show isn't really fair in
this case.

[Huginn]

The database is unique & comprises all the data. I doubt the US military "splits" its database into different subsets for each battleship/submarine/etc. out there. It would be one hell of a mess if that were so

Indeed, there would be one database...on land, and whenever you need to look up a personnel file, you...erm, go on the Internet. At the very least, there would be a master copy on land (e.g. at the Pentagon) and backup copies elsewhere in the world. By analogy, you could say that the Colonial Fleet might have, say, one copy of this entire database on each colony (probably several more), but why in the world would you have the entire database (which requires constant updating, no doubt) on every ship in operation?

I imagine that most battlestars have a network that has the files on the crew (and only the crew) protected but available for access. Bear in mind that the Colonial Fleet was structured for operations between the Colonies, never far from contact with Pikon Fleet Headquarters. Its scope is striking similar to that of a modern military: reaching your superiors might take a while due to lightspeed delay, but certainly not beyond the scale of hours (and if it did exceed that, jumping back for orders wouldn't be out of the question). While being hours away does mean that commanders and admirals have to exercise authority in crisis alone, without being able to call up the White House at any given moment, for something so trivial as getting a personnel file, you're not looking at a long wait.

oo but it did - the writers wanted all possible doubt about Bulldog's identity dispelled outright (or rather, all doubt about his humanity) ... unlike Baltar for example, where dubiousness about him being human or not still persists & seems rife on the net

I'll give you that. I guess in my mind, the only reason you would do so is if him being a Cylon becomes a central point in the plot. I suppose this way, we know not to start barking up that tree, as viewers anyway.

I agree that ice cream sundae data is irrelevant, however personally I would simply refuse to serve on a Starfleet ship if the food dispenser computer didn't have strawberry sherbet & banana split in its database -)

You should see what happens to these hew-mons when they're deprived of their creature comforts...

Huginn,
I think you hit the nail on the head as far as analyzing the episode.
As far as DNA for everyone, there's no reason to assume it would take a
huge amount of space. Take passwords. A typical password scheme takes
the password, and munges it down to a 32-bit number. The odds of two
passwords yielding the same 32-bit number are very small, unless the
munging algorithm is flawed.
To store a DNA "checksum", one would do a DNA analysis technique like
electrophoresis (the usual technique used to see if you're related to
someone, or if you're DNA matches DNA found at a crime scene).
Standardize such a test so that it results in the same pattern every
time for the same DNA. Record certain parameters, and use those to
generate a list of numbers that can be munged into a
32bit/64bit/whatever number, one for each person in the military.
Another example of this is fingerprint ID. No computer system in the
world would be able to store bitmap images of every criminal's
fingerprints (or at least no computer in the late 80's and early 90's,
back when computer fingerprinting started), yet using analysis, and
storing a few numbers per print, one can fit it into a reasonable
space. Many crimes were solved using such techniques.
My point is that a DNA match could be found for Bulldog w/o requiring
anything more than what we have today and w/o a huge amount of storage.
Storing even 100 bytes per person, and assuming 10 million people, you
only need 1 gigabyte of space. Compare that to the 500-700gig hard
drives found today. Heck, a CD is 6/10ths that size.
Thus I argue that holding this against the show isn't really fair in
this case.

Hmm, I hadn't realized the data could be compressed so easily. I can see that combining that information with other personnel data would increase the size of the database, but not to an unmanageable size. I suppose it depends how extensive it is.

It makes me wonder, though, how much Galactica's computers hold. Then again, the data processed for even one jump is probably...a lot.

At the least, this establishes that holding such a database on every battlestar would be...quite possible. Whether it's smart is another story. Worked out pretty well, though, considering that it was useful (or even necessary) in this case.

[SoulReaver]

Indeed, there would be one database...on land, and whenever you need to look up a personnel file, you...erm, go on the Internet. At the very least, there would be a master copy on land (e.g. at the Pentagon) and backup copies elsewhere in the world. By analogy, you could say that the Colonial Fleet might have, say, one copy of this entire database on each colony (probably several more), but why in the world would you have the entire database (which requires constant updating, no doubt) on every ship in operation?

I imagine that most battlestars have a network that has the files on the crew (and only the crew) protected but available for access. Bear in mind that the Colonial Fleet was structured for operations between the Colonies, never far from contact with Pikon Fleet Headquarters. Its scope is striking similar to that of a modern military: reaching your superiors might take a while due to lightspeed delay, but certainly not beyond the scale of hours (and if it did exceed that, jumping back for orders wouldn't be out of the question). While being hours away does mean that commanders and admirals have to exercise authority in crisis alone, without being able to call up the White House at any given moment, for something so trivial as getting a personnel file, you're not looking at a long wait.

simple - data redundancy. can come in quite handy if the computers on land are destroyed (say, in case of all-out cylon attack ? -)
btw I meant one database not as in one physical database (server) but one "digital" database - whose data is shared amongst & common to many colonial IT systems & to which officers would have access "wherever, whenever" (duh)
You're right it requires constant updating, which is compounded by the fact that the different copies of that database all have to be updated at the same time - in other words database synchronization
However these humans have developped quite an advanced form of FTL transport (heck better than warp or hyperdrive, as BSG's FTL drives seem more akin to instant teleportation) - in the light of this, to assume that they also developped some form of FTL communication isn't very far-fetched, IMO. This would solve the synchronization prob

Also remember the database may not have copies on all colonial ships, but we're not dealing with civilian ships military fighters shuttles or corvettes here - those are Battlestars, flagships of the Colonial Fleet. There weren't many of these...

[DigiFluid]

With the Pegasus flight crew aboard with Galactica's flight crew, absolutely not. The point of the crew quarters scene in "Collaborators" was to show that the two crews are literally crammed in together. Also Racetrack's comment -- "Too many pilots, not enough birds."

Honestly, I don't know why they just don't get all of the gift shop crap out of the starboard flight deck and let Laird and the Pegasus team run amok with it. Put all of Pegasus's birds over there and have two flight decks -- a truly fully functional battlestar for once.

I know a lot of people don't think Tigh is anything special -- old, *****y, not thunkable. But my Dad, who is a military man, and I agree: his character is the richest and deepest on the show.

There is so much right with this post it's not even funny.

I think a lot of people are content with only a shallow appraisal of Tigh. But if you really stop and think hard about what he's been through--even in the time we've seen him on the show--he's one of the most well-developed characters of any television show.

[Agent_Dark]

There was a scene that had to be cut out of 'Pegasus' that's included on the DVD version, where some Pegasus crewmembers bring over a heap of encyclopedic data to Galactica. I think they mentioned 'Complete Colonial Encyclopedia' or something like that. Who knows what else the Pegasus had stored in it's memory banks?

[andrewag]

I really liked this episode. It stood on its own two feet much easier than the first part of the season.

With the time periods aside, I found the episode very entertaining.

I wish we had that battlestar!!!! Another great BSG

[Scyld]

In Torn, Tigh says he worked with Gaita in CIC for 4 years.

Act of Contrition, Cmdr Adama tells Lee he was aboard Galatica with Thrace for 2 years.

So yeah. The continuity doesn't make sense. In 12 months, Adama and Tigh were assigned to another Battlestar, built incredible rapport with a new crew, moved their personal belongings, and disassembled all computer networks?

Well, how many years have passed since the ragtag fleet fled from Caprica? At least two, yes? One in which Sharon's baby was gestating, another for the New Caprica stuff? Possibly three?

And the Valkyrie mission, which happened two(?) years before the Cylon attack, is what got Adama sent to the Galactica, and Tigh went with him?

If so, that means that Tigh has in fact worked with Gaeta for four years, and that Adama served onboard the Galactica for about two years before the Cylon attack.

[IMForeman]

The odd thing is that Sci-Fi seems to have consistently missed the time Crichton on Farscape said "I'm getting to old for this sh*t" in the episode "The Locket." I guess Adama was just more obvious.

[NotAscended]

The odd thing is that Sci-Fi seems to have consistently missed the time Crichton on Farscape said "I'm getting to old for this sh*t" in the episode "The Locket." I guess Adama was just more obvious.

I think it's more a sign of the times. Since March of 2006, the US Federal Communications Commission has been doing a well-publicized crackdown on profanity on both cable and broadcast TV. As they currently seem to be enforcing it, you can use the s-word in scripted TV after 10 pm, but not before. So, BSG's earlier time slot results in bleepage.

[hbk314]

The FCC has no power over cable TV. Editing is based on the channel's own policy.

[Arative]

Well, how many years have passed since the ragtag fleet fled from Caprica? At least two, yes? One in which Sharon's baby was gestating, another for the New Caprica stuff? Possibly three?

And the Valkyrie mission, which happened two(?) years before the Cylon attack, is what got Adama sent to the Galactica, and Tigh went with him?

If so, that means that Tigh has in fact worked with Gaeta for four years, and that Adama served onboard the Galactica for about two years before the Cylon attack.

During the Mini-series, Gaeta says it has been an honor to serve the past 2 or 3 years as does Tyrol, its been a while since I watched it so I don't have more precise dates. It has been 2 years since the attacks and 3 years Bulldog was held captive. That gives a year difference between being on the Valakrie and Galatica.

Only thing that I can think of that explains the continuity is that during the flashback with Adama and the Admirals. The Admirals are explaining the mission and Adama says, "I'm going to want my people with me" That could mean that he had a temporary assignment to the Valakyrie because it was a better battlestar than the Galatica, more suitable for the mission and Adama took Tigh and Bulldog with him on the mission.

I still need to watch the episode with RDM's podcast, hopefully that will shed some light on what is going on with the continuity.

[Trek_Girl42]

During the Mini-series, Gaeta says it has been an honor to serve the past 2 or 3 years as does Tyrol, its been a while since I watched it so I don't have more precise dates. It has been 2 years since the attacks and 3 years Bulldog was held captive. That gives a year difference between being on the Valakrie and Galatica.

Only thing that I can think of that explains the continuity is that during the flashback with Adama and the Admirals. The Admirals are explaining the mission and Adama says, "I'm going to want my people with me" That could mean that he had a temporary assignment to the Valakyrie because it was a better battlestar than the Galatica, more suitable for the mission and Adama took Tigh and Bulldog with him on the mission.

I still need to watch the episode with RDM's podcast, hopefully that will shed some light on what is going on with the continuity.

I presumed that with a mission like that, they'd be running with a specially selected and limited-to-the-essentials crew. Gaeta and Tyrol probably wouldn't have been senior enough for that mission at the time.

[Freek]

The only thing I'm wondering... why don't the humans seem worried that the cylons know where their fleet was/is, and more importantly - if the cylons knew where they were, why did they not just throw their entire fleet at them.

(Please don't come up with the "they don't want to destroy humanity" part here, because only a few episodes ago their entire fleet jumped at galactica as soon as they found out they jumped into one of their routes)

[GateShip One]

The only thing I'm wondering... why don't the humans seem worried that the cylons know where their fleet was/is, and more importantly - if the cylons knew where they were, why did they not just throw their entire fleet at them.

(Please don't come up with the "they don't want to destroy humanity" part here, because only a few episodes ago their entire fleet jumped at galactica as soon as they found out they jumped into one of their routes)

I don't think the Cylons would be ready yet. The Six with Baltar may not have had total control over the Colony's defenses yet. From what we've seen so far, one on one, a Battlestar will easily beat a Baseship. It seems the Cylons needed the Colony's defenses down for their attack to be successful.

[Beeblebrox]

This episode shined in character development, though. For that, I deem it a good episode. But it cannot be a great episode. Sure, it was entertaining, but it is not something that you will remember when we look back upon Season 3 when it's all said and done.

This is an excellent summary and you are to be commended for it. I too saw this as a character dev ep but here is my problem with it. Adama is not the kind of guy who is going to be so naive as to think that a scout mission would result in a nuclear holocaust and worse yet, that HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. An experienced military man would know that scouting the enemy's ability to wage ware is an essential responsibility of the military and of the civilian leadership.

Case in point, look how everyone beat up on Bush and the CIA for not being prepared for an attack by al qaeda. His failure to "connect the dots" was a constant drumbeat from his enemies for years after 9/11. We the people expect our government, the intelligence community, and the military to KNOW what our enemies are up to so as to better be able to defend us.

No, what I saw in this ep was the writers trying to do the "moral equivalency, thing again just like the last episode. I.E. we are really no better than the enemy. We may think that we were unfairly wiped out but it turns out that a scout mission was what precipitated a global thermonuclear holocaust! GIVE ME A FRACKIN' BREAK!

It is simply astounding to me that the writing on this show has turned 180 degrees from its original pro-military, good vs. evil underpinnings. What the writers are trying to do is not develop Adama's character but to imply that eeevil admirals somewhere were plotting to start a war with the Cylons in order to advance the military industrial complex (read: Bush and his generals started the war in Iraq for oil, etc.). This kind of transparent lefty writing is irksome because it not only is standard Hollywood tripe but it does not fit with the overarching idea that the colonies were wiped out by an evil race of robots intent on destroying their creators.

The whole idea that the colonies were responsible for their own destruction because they did a minor provocation of the Cylons is like saying that a woman is responsible for her own rape because she allowed the guy to get to first base with her. She brought it on herself.

WRONG!!! The Cylons are responsible for wiping out mankind and that level of genocide should be greeted with moral certitude. Adama would KNOW that he was right to find out what the Cylons were up to, he would KNOW that the admirals were right to do a spy mission, he would KNOW that it is his responsibility as a leader of the military to defend his countrymen, and he would KNOW that if doing any of the above resulted in a first strike from the enemy that it was the ENEMY that was responsible for the slaughter not his own actions.

Bottom line, while Adama's response was not in character for a seasoned and wise military leader, it is in character for a bunch of wimpy leftist writers who clearly think America is at fault for the rise in Islamic jihadism and they want to try to make a point of it through the bully pulpit of a popular television. The problem is, BSG used to be a favorite of conservatives and the military because it reflected the importance of a strong defense. It is losing that audience and well it should. The show started with a genocide of the first order and the idea that to survive, the enemy had to be not only defended against but destroyed, was a key element of the plot.

The last two episodes have totally undermined that whole notion and it is disappointing to see.