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My Journey through Babylon 5

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    Sleeping in Light

    Let me try to address/help....

    Originally posted by magictrick View Post
    The fact that this one was filmed before season 5 played in its favour because we got to see Susan one last time.
    Agreed. That's one of the really wonderful aspects of this one IMO too.

    Originally posted by magictrick View Post
    Also, we know what Londo's fate is, but what about G'kar? Are we to assume that G'kar died together with Londo during that final fight?
    Yes. The two die killing each other. It's pretty heavily implied in the episodes where we see it happening, but it's made abundantly clear in the Legions of Fire novels.

    Originally posted by magictrick View Post
    And we don't receive any information on Lennier and what happened to him.
    This is one of the bigger disappointments of the entire franchise IMO. You're right--we don't find out what happened to him in this one. And since it was filmed prior to what happened several episodes previous, I'm not even convinced that JMS had decided to have him betray Sheridan/Delenn at the time SiL was written. Worse, his fate isn't especially well-addressed in the novels. It's mentioned, and we do find out what happens to him. And it is a redemption of sorts, but it's told in retrospect by another character so you never actually get to see/read it play out.

    Originally posted by magictrick View Post
    I assume I will need to watch some of the other movies or read the novels to fill in some gaps here.
    It will most certainly help, though not all issues are resolved; while other new problems are introduced that never get proper resolution due to cancellation or not being ordered to series.
    • Thirdspace and River of Souls are totally standalone stories. The first is set approximately during 4.09 and is stated to be between the end of the Shadow War and before the civil war. The second is set in the year after Season 5
    • Legend of the Rangers is kind of the black sheep of the franchise. It was made as a backdoor pilot for a potential series on Sci Fi, but its ratings were pretty bad and it was generally savaged by fans of the franchise. Frankly, it really sucked. If you're to skip just one thing in the entire franchise, I'd recommend this be it.
    • A Call to Arms is another backdoor pilot, except it was spun into the TV series Crusade, which is set 5 years after the end of Season 5 (regular season 5, not SiL). You then have Crusade with its own story, varying opinions as to its quality, and ultimately cancellation before it could either get rolling or resolve the problem introduced in CtA
    • Finally, there was Lost Tales, which is just all-around rather unfortunate. It's set in 2271 (4 years after Crusade, or 9 years after B5 S5), assumes the stories of Crusade are resolved, and was SUPPOSED to be the start of a series of direct-to-DVD movies focusing on each of the universe's main characters. But it never panned out and we only got the one release of two stories; JMS blamed it on low budget not allowing him to achieve what he wanted. Some fans (of whom I am one) point, rather, to the shoddy writing


    And then there's the novels which are considered part of the show's canon. For every one of them, JMS outlined stories that he wanted to see happen in his universe and then let other writers do the novelization of it. There's three trilogies and a standalone that are in this category:
    • The Psi Corps trilogy: Book 1 begins in the show's distant past, when telepaths first emerged on Earth in the 2100s, and is concerned with the birth and evolution of the Psi Corps into what we know it as from the show. Book 2 follows a young Bester growing up in the Psi Corps institution, from childhood until shortly before Season 1 of B5. Book 3, disappointingly, skips over the Telepath War entirely and picks up in 2271 when he's in hiding as a wanted war criminal
    • The Techno-mages trilogy: This might sound a little puzzling since they were only in one episode (and two of them appeared in Crusade), but it really is a gem of a trilogy and IMO the best of all the B5 books. It follows the Techno-mages as they make their decision to go into hiding when the Shadows return, and focuses on Galen (a Crusade character) as he wrestles with his conscience regarding hiding from the war. Oh, and the other important thing? His investigation into the tech of the Techno-mages, and what their connection is to the Shadows themselves. The whole trilogy takes place concurrently with Seasons 1-4 of the show, and occasionally shows stuff from the show from the point of view of other characters
    • The Legions of Fire trilogy: By far the biggest letdown of the franchise IMO. It tells what should be the most interesting story of the franchise put to print--what's going on with the Centauri and the Drakh, starting at the end of The Fall of Centauri Prime and continuing right up till that fateful end for Londo and G'Kar. Unfortunately, the author really sucks. You can almost point directly to the plot points JMS specified, since the writer does almost no storytelling in between. It jumps around a lot, the characters are written badly, and is just awful at keeping its dates straight. For a show so focused on being exact with its dates, this is really jarring. You routinely have to subtract x number of months or years whenever you see a date header on a page, or else just outright guess at when this should be happening
    • Finally, there's the standalone novel The Shadow Within, which occupies a really strange place in continuity. It's half canon. That is to say, it tells two simultaneous parallel stories: Sheridan when he first takes command of the Agamemnon and is adjusting to his new command, and Anna aboard the Icarus on its voyage to Z'ha'dum. The Anna/Icarus story is considered canon, the Sheridan/Agamemnon story is not
    Last edited by DigiFluid; 05 April 2012, 09:33 AM. Reason: conscience, not consciousness lol
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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      Why thank you for that wealth of information! It looks like there are still a lot of stories to be told.

      I think I will start with the two stand alone movies that are mentioned, and also In the Beginning which I haven't watched yet.

      Unless I've missed something, from what I read above I don't see any movie or book actually dealing with the Telepath war.

      I was also finally able to check out the actor information now that I've finished the series. I was saddened to discover that some of the actors have unfortunately passed away RIP Richard Biggs, Andreas Katsulas and Jeff Conaway.
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        Tim Choate, the actor who played Zathras, also passed away. He was killed in a motorcycle accident back in '04 I believe.
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          Originally posted by magictrick View Post
          Unless I've missed something, from what I read above I don't see any movie or book actually dealing with the Telepath war.
          Nope, you read right. This and the LoF trilogy are the big disappointments of the B5verse. We get bits and pieces of the Teep War either told anecdotally or recalled by characters, in Crusade and in the third Psi Corps book, but they never took the time to actually tell the story. Disappointing, after so much of that was the crux of Season 5.
          "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

          Comment


            This is a bit of reference that I've posted in a couple of threads before. I thought this might be a good place to paste it again, since now you needn't worry about spoiling any of B5.

            Incidentally, I just now realize that I forgot in my previous post the other standalone canon novel, To Dream in the City of Sorrows. It follows Sinclair's story from his departure from B5 at the end of Season 1 up until Season 3.



            The full, screen and page timeline (of things which JMS regards as canon to the universe) flows thus:

            Spoiler:
            2115-89
            • Dark Genesis (Psi Corps Trilogy novel #1)


            2195
            • Deadly Relations (Psi Corps Trilogy novel #2)


            2256-7
            • The Shadow Within (novel, but only the Icarus story is considered canon)


            2257
            • "The Gathering"


            2258
            • Babylon 5 Season 1


            2258-9
            • Casting Shadows (Passing of the Techno-Mages Trilogy novel #1 -- spans from before B5 1.22 into January 2259)


            2259
            • In Darkness Find Me (comic)
            • Babylon 5 2.01-02
            • Treason (comic)
            • In Harm's Way (comic)
            • The Price of Peace (comic)
            • Babylon 5 2.03-08
            • Shadows Past and Present (comic arc)
            • Babylon 5 2.09-22


            2259-60
            • To Dream in the City of Sorrows (novel spanning from Sinclair's departure from B5 to the beginning of 2260)
            • Summoning Light (Passing of the Techno-Mages Trilogy novel #2, begins concurrent with B5 2.03 and spans until after B5 3.20)


            2260
            • Babylon 5 Season 3
            • Invoking Darkness (Passing of the Techno-Mages Trilogy novel #3, begins where book 2 left off and continues till after B5 3.22)


            2261
            • Babylon 5 4.01-06
            • In Valen's Name (comic)
            • Babylon 5 4.07-08
            • Babylon 5 4.09 (partial, only the first few minutes)
            • "Thirdspace"
            • Babylon 5 4.09 (remainder)
            • Babylon 5 4.10-21


            2262
            • Babylon 5 5.01-02
            • Hidden Agendas (short story)
            • Babylon 5 5.03-19
            • Shadow of His Thoughts (short story begins 6 days after The Fall of Centauri Prime)
            • Babylon 5 5.20-21
            • Genius Loci (short story)


            2262-66
            • The Long Night of Centauri Prime (Centauri Trilogy novel #1, begins after "Shadow of His Thoughts" and continues till just before "Call to Arms"


            2263
            • "River of Souls"


            2265
            • The Nautilus Coil (short story)
            • "The Legend of the Rangers"


            2266-73
            • Armies of Light and Dark (Centauri Trilogy novel #2)


            2266
            • "A Call to Arms"


            2267
            • Crusade Season 1 (varying orders possible)
            • Crusade: To the Ends of the Earth (unfilmed script)
            • Crusade: Value Judgements (unfilmed script)
            • Crusade: Tried and True (unfilmed script)
            • Crusade: War Story (unfilmed script)
            • Crusade: The Walls of Hell (unfilmed script)
            • Crusade: Untitled Part 3 of Sword trilogy (unfilmed script)
            • Crusade: End of the Line (unfilmed script for Season 1 finale)
            • Crusade: Little Bugs Have Lesser Bugs (unfilmed script)


            2269
            • True Seeker (short story)


            2271
            • Final Reckoning (Psi Corps Trilogy novel #3)
            • The Lost Tales (comic)
            • "The Lost Tales: Voices in the Dark"


            2274-9
            • Out of the Darkness (Centauri Trilogy novel #3)


            2278
            • "In the Beginning" (framing of story in this period, and is concurrent with what Sheridan encounters when he travels to the future in Season 3's War Without End)


            2281
            • Babylon 5 5.22 "Sleeping in Light"


            2561
            • Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic (short story)


            1,002,262
            • Babylon 5 4.22 "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars"



            NOTE: Whether the unfilmed Crusade scripts are canon or not remains a mystery. I opt to include them in chronological reckonings of the B5verse because JMS wrote them himself.


            Just a note: the comics are generally forgettable and don't add much to the 'verse. Feel no guilt or that you've missed out on anything if you choose not to bother.
            "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

            Comment


              When the Legions of Fire trilogy was written, I guess JMS was still holding out for a feature length movie with decent financing for the Telepath War. Now that it's obvious it's not coming, I think he should give up on the idea and ask a decent author to novelize the story.

              Following and contributing to this thread has been fun. Are you going to watch the episodes of Crusade that have been filmed?

              The most poignant moment for me in SiL and possibly the entire franchise was when the lights of Babylon 5 were switched off and the station blown up by JMS himself.

              I made these last year after the loss of Jeff Conaway.

              Sleeping in Light...







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                those are very nice maneth. What a loss. Katsulas and Choate were just so spot-on in their performances every time.
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                  Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
                  This is a bit of reference that I've posted in a couple of threads before. I thought this might be a good place to paste it again, since now you needn't worry about spoiling any of B5.
                  That is a good reference to have. I plan on checking out the movies so now I know where they fall within the B5 universe from a chronological stand point.

                  Originally posted by maneth View Post
                  Following and contributing to this thread has been fun. Are you going to watch the episodes of Crusade that have been filmed?

                  The most poignant moment for me in SiL and possibly the entire franchise was when the lights of Babylon 5 were switched off and the station blown up by JMS himself.*

                  I made these last year after the loss of Jeff Conaway.
                  Those are nice sigs maneth. It really is sad about all of them, gone too soon.

                  I definitely plan on watching Crusade. I will probably be watching some of the movies first though. I also figure I'm going to continue posting my thoughts on those movies and Crusade in this thread. My journey through Babylon 5 isn't quite complete yet
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                    That's great news! I enjoyed what there was of Crusade, IMO they should have made at least one season of it...
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                      It's been a crazy couple of weeks, so I didn't have any time to comment in real time on any of the episodes you've seen magictrick, so I'm going to go back a bit . Apologies for the delay.

                      Re And All My Dreams Torn Asunder:

                      Like I said earlier, this is a particularly good episode in my opinion. The scene at the beginning where Sheridan and Delenn are getting ready in the morning for the day ahead of them, knowing it's going to be a really bad day, is amazing. Shreidan's despair comes across extremely well, and it's especially poignant since it's very unlike Sheridan to be so helpless. And later, the scene in the council meeting - Sheridan's outburst is also very unlike him, and it illustrates his frustration at the situation, and in particular at the fact that he has no choice but doing something he really doesn't want to do. These two scenes always get to me.

                      Re Objects at Rest:

                      I agree with all people said about the changes in the command staff of the station. The scene of Shreridan's White Star departure, with the new command staff standing in C&C to pay respect and also to officially assume their command is very moving. It's sad in the sense that it marks the end of en era, but also hopeful and very symbolic, since it presents a new page in the station's history. In a sense it reminds me of the last scene of Ceremonies of Light and Dark. But my favorite scene in the episode is Shereidan's message to his kid. It's so sad that at the same time he's happy and excited about expecting a child, he also knows he will never have the chance to see him come of age. Again, like many other scenes in this show, it's heart breaking.

                      Re Sleeping in Light:

                      Wonderful episode. What a series finale. I thought it was very fitting that the last episode shows where our characters ended up 20 years later, and not just show how their time on B5 itself ended.

                      Needless to say it's a very sad episode. Other than the obvious sadness of Sheridan's death (or passing beyond the veil, or whatever actually happened to him...), to which I will get a bit later, it was sad to see that things didn't turn out well for Ivanova. I mean, sure, she's a General, and an important person and all that, but she's obviously not happy. She's lonely, bitter, and worn out, and it seems that at least in her personal life she continued to face one disappointment after the other. It's extremely sad. We never find out how things turned out with her after Sleeping in Light (unless I'm forgetting something in one of the books), but I sure hope she found some peace as head of the Rangers.

                      And back to the heart breaking scenes... Sheridan's and Delenn's goodbye... Ugh. Absolutely gutting. Saying anything else would be redundant.
                      Last edited by Raw_Deal; 01 March 2013, 08:10 AM.
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                      Suffer the dream of a world gone mad, I like it like that and I know it.
                      - R.E.M.

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                        The techno Mage trilogy was good. I am disappointed there are not more novels written to finish there story off.
                        Spoiler:
                        I think they deserve to survive but only under Galen leadership

                        I think Babylon 5 is probably the worst handle scifi universe out there.

                        Anyone know where I can acquire the un filmed crusade scripts, I looked on the net but could not find them.

                        I was disappointed with legion of the rangers, which lack originality and seem to just been setting up another shadow war again but with a new big bad guy out their.

                        It a shame that the telepath war story has not been written.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by knowles2 View Post
                          I think Babylon 5 is probably the worst handle scifi universe out there.
                          How on Earth do you figure?
                          "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Raw_Deal View Post
                            Needless to say it's a very sad episode. Other than the obvious sadness of Sheridan's death (or passing beyond the veil, or whatever actually happened to him...), to which I will get a bit later, it was sad to see that things didn't turn out well for Ivanova. I mean, sure, she's a General, and an important person and all that, but she's obviously not happy. She's lonely, bitter, and worn out, and it seems that at least in her personal life she continued to face one disappointment after the other. It's extremely sad. We never find out how things turned out with her after Sleeping in Light (unless I'm forgetting something in one of the books), but I sure hope she founds some peace as head of the Rangers.

                            And back to the hear breaking scenes... Sheridan's and Delenn's goodbye... Ugh. Absolutely gutting. Saying anything else would be redundant.
                            The way Ivanova was portrayed 20 years later was not encouraging I agree. It seemed like she never recovered from Marcus' death to have any type of happiness in her personal life. It was kind of depressing seeing her like that. I guess a small measure of redemption though is the fact that she's now being assigned to command the rangers. I feel like that is a job she would truly enjoy and be good at.
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                              Originally posted by magictrick View Post
                              I guess a small measure of redemption though is the fact that she's now being assigned to command the rangers. I feel like that is a job she would truly enjoy and be good at.
                              I sure hope you're right.
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                              Suffer the dream of a world gone mad, I like it like that and I know it.
                              - R.E.M.

                              Comment


                                I found Ivanova's fate sad as well, particularly since they never had the chance of a relationship. Both were attracted, but they never did anything about it. I bet Ivanova regretted that the remainder of her life. It may have been enough to keep her unattached too.

                                Some may find it admirable that Delenn remained unattached after Sheridan died, but I see it as a waste. After all, she lived for at least 100 years after his death. The Minbari are a long-lived species, and Delenn was half-human, which probably would shorten her lifespan compared to pure Minbari. I expect that most humans who didn't die a violent death would survive to see and enjoy their 100th birthday in the 24th century, but even so Delenn was exceptionally long-lived for a human. I have a feeling that if Lennier hadn't betrayed Sheridan and Delenn, she might have found consolation with him a decade or two after her husband's death...
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