Discussion about hot topics trending today

[Annoyed]

Ok, then. What would your suggestion be? Remember, the goal is to protect society from criminals, without breaking the bank.

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

But your plan puts the prisoners' right to work ahead of those who follow the law.

You would create a system where crime the only way to have regular work. You would have a slave labour force who could undercut any government agency, any private business. You would put more people out of work in an already difficult job market. You would force more people into poverty. You would force them to have to choose between stealing or starving. You would make them homeless to keep prisoners busy.

You would only increase the prison population. Your system wouldn't just create a new slave underclass. You would guarantee the only people who live in your country are the slaves and the billionaire class who owns them.

Your plan is unbelievably short-sighted.

[Falcon Horus]

...the goal is to protect society from criminals...

And that exactly there is the problem... the longer the sentence, the longer "society" is free of the burden to have the convicts roaming its streets, causing trouble.

Punish them, and keep them part of society if the sentence is not life. Allow them to be useful, and prepare them for a life outside, after the sentence. That shouldn't be too hard now -- those programs already exist, I bet, and with the proper funding they can thrive and potentially keep men and women out of jail and be fulltime members of that society, contributing to its economy.

[SoulReaver]

also the number of people disproportionately punished by slave labour not to mention those wrongfully convicted & enslaved would skyrocket

Your plan is unbelievably short-sighted.

in other words perfectly valid & reasonable





from a conservative point of view

[Falcon Horus]

Guys, I don't think Annoyed meant for the cheap labour to be for society, but a means for the inmates to pay for the costs which are spend, like food, clothing, tv-privileges, use of the facilities (water spending, electricity, I don't know) -- kinda like a rent (but without creating a debt, I hope).

[SoulReaver]

Guys, I don't think Annoyed meant for the cheap labour to be for society, but a means for the inmates to pay for the costs which are spend, like food, clothing, tv-privileges, use of the facilities (water spending, electricity, I don't know) -- kinda like a rent (but without creating a debt, I hope).

and just like any house or apartment they could just refuse to "rent" the place

after all Free Market also means that you can't force demand & you're free to choose what goods & services you pay for doesn't it

[Falcon Horus]

True.

[Annoyed]

And that exactly there is the problem... the longer the sentence, the longer "society" is free of the burden to have the convicts roaming its streets, causing trouble.

Punish them, and keep them part of society if the sentence is not life. Allow them to be useful, and prepare them for a life outside, after the sentence. That shouldn't be too hard now -- those programs already exist, I bet, and with the proper funding they can thrive and potentially keep men and women out of jail and be fulltime members of that society, contributing to its economy.

That is not exactly a "problem". It is the goal, to protect society from its criminals.

And you are correct, there are already more than enough programs that try to teach them to behave. They just don't work.

No one gets sucked into the criminal justice system except as a consequence of their own choice to be a criminal. So I don't have a great deal of sympathy for them.

[SoulReaver]

No one gets sucked into the criminal justice system except as a consequence of their own choice to be a criminal

he chose it?

[Annoyed]

There will always be occasional errors. Nothing designed by humans is perfect. Going by that article, the prosecutor in that case should be prosecuted.

[garhkal]

better one - dude shot an unarmed dude for taking off his baseball hat (victim's name was Diaz Zeferino)
turned out the victim was the brother of a robbery victim who had called 911 to report the burglary & the victim's brother was out looking for the robber when he was shot

the shooter got...nothing
oh wait this time the shooter himself was a cop nvm

Wha? So he shot someone cause he had stolen his brothers hat, and got off? I call Bull on that call..

helluva double standard: on one hand law enforcement despite all their powers should have the right not to prevent a crime & not to answer 911 calls to avoid risking their life, without fear of legal consequences, but on the other hand a citizen without said powers should have the obligation to risk their life & prevent the crime lest they get indicted as criminals
so the SS get all the privileges (on taxpayers' money) and the commoners get all the duties (without taxpayers' money)

Who's been advocating that cops should hae the power to ignore 911 calls, and not investigate actions to try and prevent crimes??

OK, institute zero tolerance and capital punishment for all crimes after the first, that fixes that problem.

Na./ Let's kill them all before they become criminals.. That'll fix it

So what?
Are really still trying to compare -elected- positions to getting a job or advancing in one the "traditional way"?
They are in no way the same thing.

But when the initial discussion was about how 'blacks are under-represented in government', it is. Since when most speak about government they are on about those political spots.. NOT say working for the IRS etc.

Time period of fraud involved in both cases was?

From my memory of the news paper articles about 14 months for the SS disability, and just under a year for the old dude getting his dead wife's checks... So maybe 2-3 months difference, but close enough to be equal.

So, your solution would be?
The only one I can think of is getting rid of judges and codifying every crime with a standard penalty.

It SHOULD be.. Assault of a cop gets X period. Assault of a woman gets Y..

No, some certainly use the mouse trap in "interesting ways", so unintended consequences, sure, but they are not "rebuilding the mousetrap, they are trying to get rid of it. Are there some that go too far? Of course, extremism is not limited to politics, or religion, or any other subject.

How do you think they are NOT rebuilding the trap, when they have pushed all sorts of laws into place that we didn't have before??

They do it to illustrate a point. Outside of a movie, do you really think that they think it would be fair to merely "turn the tables"?

Based on their comedy routines, it DOES seem both of them feel that way, not just 'for a show'..

Yes, because capital punishment really is the solution...

And what pray tell is your solution. Sing kumbya, around a camp fire and listen to them whine about how their childhood was so bad???

If you can offer people a decent future, something they can work for and will give them a decent enough life they don't have to go hungry at the end of the month, you'll find that most will grab the opportunity with both hands.

Strange, since we do that with welfare, and i don't see people flocking to Leave that lifestyle..

You were doing so great, and then you finished with that "threat to society".
So basically, prisons aren't there to hold the criminals, they are a convenient way to keep them away from your society.

When cause of their crimes, THEY have removed themselves from society, sure!

[SoulReaver]

Wha? So he shot someone cause he had stolen his brothers hat, and got off? I call Bull on that call..

no it's better : he hadn't stolen anything or done anything illegal
he was shot for taking off his own baseball hat

his bro had been robbed - his bike iirc - so he was out with some friends looking for the bike/robber when the SS intercepted them (funnily they'd been called by the theft victim for that same robbery)

hey don't believe me the video's on the tube

Who's been advocating that cops should hae the power to ignore 911 calls, and not investigate actions to try and prevent crimes??

for starters? police unions (you know, the only ultra-conservative unions in america)

[aretood2]

You're really going to make that claim, with a black occupant of the White House?
The city nearest to me has a roughly 40% white population, 38% black, and the rest various "minorities". The Mayor, as well as the last mayor and a large part of city council are Black. And that mayor won election despite his predecessor of the same party/race having made some really big screwups, one of which left city taxpayers on the hook for $40 million. Despite this, the current mayor won the election by a very healthy margin. So where minorities are the "majority" of the population, minorities can do very well at the ballot box.

I'm not saying it's getting better, because it is. But just because it's getting better in some areas, doesn't mean that the playing field is leveled for everyone either. But the real kicker is when people like say...right wing populists...start complaining about the playing field being leveled. Take the affirmative action rant...oh he got the job? It must be because he's a minority and not because he was actually qualified and had a great interview.

Nope. It does not. But a repeat offender of ANY race or gender does deserve a harsher sentence. Hence the "3 strikes and you're out" laws. Those laws don't just apply to any one race.

The statement had nothing to do with actual repeat offenders. You said that a white person is magically less likely to commit a crime than a black person (what's the definitnion of racism again?). I said that even if that were to be true, and it's not, it shouldn't matter. The statistics involving the harsher sentences for black people vs white people also include and take into account repeat offenders. A white repeat offender is likely to get a lighter sentence.

With the prisoners as a source of free labor, they could be made self sufficient. I discussed one possible way earlier.

You really haven't the slightest clue as to what you are talking about. Aside from the issues of running businesses and government jobs out of the hands of law abiding people...have you any idea what a government who decides what is legal and illegal would do to increase the very economical slave labor you are itching for?

I mean, already you have municipalities in the US who make up crazy fees and give out insane tickets to people who can't contest it. Take Texas Troopers for example, they are known for ticketing out of state drivers with more than questionable tickets mainly because they are the least likely to take the officer to court to fight it. I mean...would you pay the $200 or take a 10 hour drive from Colorado to fight that ticket? It's not far fetched to see states trumping up charges like crazy to supplement their new cheap labor force...and to avoid getting called out on it, who do you think they will target the most?

[Annoyed]

lol in the US? easier said
in that country most classes can go to jail for the slightest transgression whereas some classes must go to great lengths just to get indicted

That's funny, 'cause I've yet to see the inside of a prison cell. And I can assure you I am not a member of the upper classes.
So, what is the explanation? Maybe it's because I haven't tried to assault anyone, rob anyone, you know, that kind of thing.

[Annoyed]

Government jobs? Military/police/postal workers/road maintenance type jobs? What happens to the people your slave labour force will replace?

Ok, then. What would your suggestion be? Remember, the goal is to protect society from criminals, without breaking the bank.

But your plan puts the prisoners' right to work ahead of those who follow the law.

You would create a system where crime the only way to have regular work. You would have a slave labour force who could undercut any government agency, any private business. You would put more people out of work in an already difficult job market. You would force more people into poverty. You would force them to have to choose between stealing or starving. You would make them homeless to keep prisoners busy.

You would only increase the prison population. Your system wouldn't just create a new slave underclass. You would guarantee the only people who live in your country are the slaves and the billionaire class who owns them.

Your plan is unbelievably short-sighted.

Again I ask you, what is your proposed solution, and again, remember the goal is to protect society from its criminals, without breaking the bank.