A Discussion/Debate on Religion & Other Closely Related Topics

[The Urban Spaceman]

Atheist group is suing 9/11 Memorial site for Religious Cross.

Discuss.

I have no problem with a religious cross being there. But then, I'm not American and I don't have to see it or be offended by it. It seems to me that these days, people are just looking for things to be offended by, so they can righteously claim loudly about it. Let the cross stay. Why not just put up symbols for the religions of everybody killed during 11/9 bombing?

[Goose]

the real question there is --if-- the cross-beam falling the way it did (making an almost perfect and upright t shape), was that
* a symbol of hope or of judgement (crossing the T, so to speak), and from who's perspective..?
* was it a signal from God about comforting the people who were left surviving with the memories?
* or was God sending an alert about not forgetting "Him" (His presence during our worst moments in life)
* or... God reminding people to hold steadfast to their what little faith they had left to cling to regardless of what happened, while in the process of sifting thru the debris, cleaning up, and moving forward in life once again
* or what?

* Dumb luck?

Or what about coincidence + probability? Having the two ends of the horizontal beam break at approximately the same distance from the centre bar is rather chancy with only one, but with the thousands of crossbeams in the WTC, it's very easy. And having the longer end of the vertical fall first is gravity at work.

[Brother Freyr]

Just had a thought (gasp!):

If one wants to assign supernatural meaning to the two steel beams that landed in the shape of a cross, then rationally one should also assign supernatural meaning to the position in which all the other beams landed. Doing so makes the notion of signs and symbols decidedly less attractive, eh?

edit: If all the beams landed in crossed pairs, standing across the landscape... well, hell, I might re-evaluate the question of God's existence.

[The Urban Spaceman]

Personally I think it wasn't so much a cross, as a slightly mis-aligned X. As in, the spot. Here be treasure/dragons/pirates/delete as appropriate.

Edit: Oh yes, it could also be the futhark symbol nied/nauthiz. Cross, X, nied, who's to say one is more right than the other? We all ascribe different meanings to different things, depending upon our upbringing and knowledge. Who can say that one is more right than the other? Other than, you know, God/Treasure Map Creator/The All-Father ?

[Gollumpus]

Just had a thought (gasp!):

If one wants to assign supernatural meaning to the two steel beams that landed in the shape of a cross, then rationally one should also assign supernatural meaning to the position in which all the other beams landed. Doing so makes the notion of signs and symbols decidedly less attractive, eh?

edit: If all the beams landed in crossed pairs, standing across the landscape... well, hell, I might re-evaluate the question of God's existence.

Or, what if six beams came down and formed a Star of David?

regards,
G.

[The Urban Spaceman]

More chillingly, if six-hundred and sixty-six beams came down to form crosses, would that be a sign of god, or the devil?

[Gatefan1976]

More chillingly, if six-hundred and sixty-six beams came down to form crosses, would that be a sign of god, or the devil?

That would be a function of orientation would it not?

[aretood2]

Or, what if six beams came down and formed a Star of David?

regards,
G.

I think you would be looking for the Menorah.

[lordofseas]

Or, what if six beams came down and formed a Star of David?

regards,
G.

That would be infinitely more interesting than a cross.

[The Flyattractor]

The USA, on paper, is not a Christian country anymore, may I remind you.

Got that right..which is why this country is gonna go down the tubes.. Preach on it!

[SGalisa]

the real question there is --if-- the cross-beam falling the way it did (making an almost perfect and upright t shape), was that
* a symbol of hope or of judgement (crossing the T, so to speak), and from who's perspective..?
* was it a signal from God about comforting the people who were left surviving with the memories?
* or was God sending an alert about not forgetting "Him" (His presence during our worst moments in life)
* or... God reminding people to hold steadfast to their what little faith they had left to cling to regardless of what happened, while in the process of sifting thru the debris, cleaning up, and moving forward in life once again
* or what?

It did seem that most of the world (and some countries not even Christian) pulled together thru this tragedy, all until former President G.W.Bush went chasing after Iraq as his first goal in resolving who was all behind this, instead of going after the more OBVIOUS ones (the organizations in the countries that actually committed the crime). Daniel Pearl went after the head hauncho (O.bin Laden) on that, supposedly seeking answers to the why's, and ended up being murdered for a simple interview.

After the whole Iraq fiasco, the world seemed to have stopped supporting the USA in this quest to pursue the ones who caused the problem, because our president at the time was chasing after other matters that didn't even seem related to everything else that happened on September 11, 2001.
...

The USA, on paper, is not a Christian country, may I remind you.

I have no qualms with supporting the US find and eliminate terrorist threats. I just think that Bush should have done it more efficiently, and directly.

clarification-- I was referring to the discovered t cross-beam --object itself-- as a supposed "Christian" symbol, not the USA.

There was a universal sort of (all nations, beliefs, etc.) pulling together, not an ecumenical, spiritual event or whatever. At the time, there were no obvious divisions -- mostly everyone around the world seemed united in a specific effort to stop the terrorism pronto. But when the lines with former President G.W. Bush pursuing Iraq in the way he did, that universal vision became blurred, and the (war against terror effort) support drifted apart and divisions began.

Not sure if that was written clearly enough.

[Gatefan1976]

clarification-- I was referring to the discovered t cross-beam --object itself-- as a supposed "Christian" symbol, not the USA.

If all it is is a cross beam, then throw it away or recycle it.

There was a universal sort of (all nations, beliefs, etc.) pulling together, not an ecumenical, spiritual event or whatever. At the time, there were no obvious divisions -- mostly everyone around the world seemed united in a specific effort to stop the terrorism pronto.

We collectivley felt bad for ALL citizens of the US, no matter thier political or religious orientation.

But when the lines with former President G.W. Bush pursuing Iraq in the way he did, that universal vision became blurred, and the (war against terror effort) support drifted apart and divisions began.

Yes, politics and religion were brought into it. Instead of 9/11 being a tragic event, it got pimped out to support idiologies.

Not sure if that was written clearly enough.

Probably not, sorry

[lordofseas]

Wow. I'm pleased that they are standing up for their minorities.

[Goose]

Gasp! You mean, not all Muslims hate Christians?!? Lies!

[The Urban Spaceman]

Gasp! You mean, not all Muslims hate Christians?!? Lies!

I think someone forgot to tell that to the guys who drove an entire community out of their homes.