A Discussion/Debate on Religion & Other Closely Related Topics

[The Flyattractor]

or ask an Orthodox Jewish rabbi....

Oh...yeah...like that wouldn't be an awkward way to start a CONVERSATION!

[lordofseas]

I know that in ancient times the taking of foreskins was used as a way of finding out how many of the enemy a victorious army had killed. Maybe it was originally started as a way of confusing the count, then picked up and added to the faith later on.

In Africa, it was/is symbolic of the transition between boyhood and manhood.

[lordofseas]

Oh...yeah...like that wouldn't be an awkward way to start a CONVERSATION!

Depends on the Jew. I had a long chat with one about this sort of stuff and other...stuff.

Heh. >.>

[pookey]

Oh...yeah...like that wouldn't be an awkward way to start a CONVERSATION!

Depends on the Jew. I had a long chat with one about this sort of stuff and other...stuff.

Heh. >.>

I'm a woman it could be a bit more awkward for me

[Womble]

A religious friend of mine has a very succint way to explain circumcision:

Director's cut.

[pookey]

A religious friend of mine has a very succint way to explain circumcision:

Director's cut.

like a <Godsnip> thankyou all ((((all)))))

[aretood2]

FYI, the other side of the cross argument. I just found this article curious and felt that you folks could say more stuff about it.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/RelChStSep_90/6114_90.htm

[Brother Freyr]

FYI, the other side of the cross argument. I just found this article curious and felt that you folks could say more stuff about it.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/RelChStSep_90/6114_90.htm

It's hard for me to become "exercised" over this one. Ten Commandments posted in a courtroom? Tear it down! Crossed beams at ground zero, where people have for a decade adopted them as meaningful to them? Eh, whatever.

[lordofseas]

It's hard for me to become "exercised" over this one. Ten Commandments posted in a courtroom? Tear it down! Crossed beams at ground zero, where people have for a decade adopted them as meaningful to them? Eh, whatever.

I want to know whether or not it's going to be part of the memorial or museum. If it's going to be part of the memorial, then include memorials for other faiths. If it's going to be an exhibit in the museum, then I have no problem with it being displayed. Though it's ridiculous that people found it miraculous that a cross was found in the rubble in the first place.

[SGalisa]

Crossed beams at ground zero, where people have for a decade adopted them as meaningful to them? Eh, whatever.

I want to know whether or not it's going to be part of the memorial or museum. If it's going to be part of the memorial, then include memorials for other faiths. If it's going to be an exhibit in the museum, then I have no problem with it being displayed. Though it's ridiculous that people found it miraculous that a cross was found in the rubble in the first place.

Why is it ridiculous to be considered *miraculous*? That particular cross beam was the only one that fell almost in a perfectly upright position that was clearly visible to many people who saw it. Grant it, objects fall in various directions -- this particular one, provided a sign of hope (as if specifically dropped there from some invisible force above to comfort those who were looking for some signal of hope, instead of total despair) -- even to people who weren't looking for it, but happened to notice it in the rubble..

I happened to notice it in a news picture and made a comment about the position.. it was almost a perfectly shaped t. Whether people attach a Christian T to it or not, it was still almost a perfectly shaped t, sitting on a slight slant as in X-mas. Can't get away from those T's.
Kind of like dotting the i's and crossing those T's properly...
-- symbolically.. God putting or providing some sort of *comfort* closure ("crossing the t") onto something (horrible tragedy maliciously caused) that should have never happened in the first place.


I think if the controversial cross-beam stays, it should really not be idol worshipped like images of Jesus' face in toast, tree trunks, or Mary (mother of Jesus of Nazareth) being discovered as frost in a winter window. Some people tend to go to extremes on that.
This cross-beam fell out of the ordinary in a very disturbing situation. It is a historical marker, if nothing else, signifying what happened to the building it formerly belonged to.

[lordofseas]

Why is it ridiculous to be considered *miraculous*? That particular cross beam was the only one that fell almost in a perfectly upright position that was clearly visible to many people who saw it. Grant it, objects fall in various directions -- this particular one, provided a sign of hope (as if specifically dropped there from some invisible force above to comfort those who were looking for some signal of hope, instead of total despair) -- even to people who weren't looking for it, but happened to notice it in the rubble..

Because the entire building was made of crossbeams. Whenever two large steel beams crossed, they almost always made a t-shape. The odds that something that looked like a cross would hit the ground would be astronomically high. The idea that it was a sign of hope is a projection of faith in times of crisis. Humans naturally seek a pattern or something identifiable in a situation, and a cross showing up during a national tragedy is very identifiable.

I happened to notice it in a news picture and made a comment about the position.. it was almost a perfectly shaped t. Whether people attach a Christian T to it or not, it was still almost a perfectly shaped t, sitting on a slight slant as in X-mas. Can't get away from those T's.
Kind of like dotting the i's and crossing those T's properly...
-- symbolically.. God putting or providing some sort of *comfort* closure ("crossing the t") onto something (horrible tragedy maliciously caused) that should have never happened in the first place.

I think if the controversial cross-beam stays, it should really not be idol worshipped like images of Jesus' face in toast, tree trunks, or Mary (mother of Jesus of Nazareth) being discovered as frost in a winter window. Some people tend to go to extremes on that.
This cross-beam fell out of the ordinary in a very disturbing situation. It is a historical marker, if nothing else, signifying what happened to the building it formerly belonged to.

It just bothers me when people say that the cross was proof that God was watching over us on 9/11. It makes me wince.

[SGalisa]

It just bothers me when people say that the cross was proof that God was watching over us on 9/11. It makes me wince.

the real question there is --if-- the cross-beam falling the way it did (making an almost perfect and upright t shape), was that
* a symbol of hope or of judgement (crossing the T, so to speak), and from who's perspective..?
* was it a signal from God about comforting the people who were left surviving with the memories?
* or was God sending an alert about not forgetting "Him" (His presence during our worst moments in life)
* or... God reminding people to hold steadfast to their what little faith they had left to cling to regardless of what happened, while in the process of sifting thru the debris, cleaning up, and moving forward in life once again
* or what?

It did seem that most of the world (and some countries not even Christian) pulled together thru this tragedy, all until former President G.W.Bush went chasing after Iraq as his first goal in resolving who was all behind this, instead of going after the more OBVIOUS ones (the organizations in the countries that actually committed the crime). Daniel Pearl went after the head hauncho (O.bin Laden) on that, supposedly seeking answers to the why's, and ended up being murdered for a simple interview.

After the whole Iraq fiasco, the world seemed to have stopped supporting the USA in this quest to pursue the ones who caused the problem, because our president at the time was chasing after other matters that didn't even seem related to everything else that happened on September 11, 2001.

Initially, I thought the t-beam was a clear sign of hope, supporting those who needed comfort, but after an entire decade of hearing about various complaints, it sometimes makes me wonder why bother with it now -- it's just a piece of steel, thus just a memorial piece of metal reminding the world of a horrible tragedy -- that should have never happened, in the first place.

--And that is regardless of how many New Yorkers saw the (original) WTC -- twin towers -- as an eyesore (and and interfering obstacle) the entire time it stood as a thriving place of business (or still do, even tho it is no longer there). My aunt worked in there, and thought it was a swaying eyesore from street level's scenic views, until a she stood inside it; and then she saw a different view from the tippy top floors -- totally awed and amazed, especially on days when the foggy canopy put the top half of the building above the fluffy clouds on the lower level portion of the building below.. *sigh*

[Gatefan1976]

Just remember, the Pentagon survived mostly intact, so if you are looking for signs and portents.............
The Cross, buried at the bottom of rubble, the Pentagram survived

[aretood2]

It just bothers me when people say that the cross was proof that God was watching over us on 9/11. It makes me wince.

Same here, but probably for different reasons.

[lordofseas]

the real question there is --if-- the cross-beam falling the way it did (making an almost perfect and upright t shape), was that
* a symbol of hope or of judgement (crossing the T, so to speak), and from who's perspective..?
* was it a signal from God about comforting the people who were left surviving with the memories?
* or was God sending an alert about not forgetting "Him" (His presence during our worst moments in life)
* or... God reminding people to hold steadfast to their what little faith they had left to cling to regardless of what happened, while in the process of sifting thru the debris, cleaning up, and moving forward in life once again
* or what?

Or what about coincidence + probability? Having the two ends of the horizontal beam break at approximately the same distance from the centre bar is rather chancy with only one, but with the thousands of crossbeams in the WTC, it's very easy. And having the longer end of the vertical fall first is gravity at work.

It did seem that most of the world (and some countries not even Christian) pulled together thru this tragedy, all until former President G.W.Bush went chasing after Iraq as his first goal in resolving who was all behind this, instead of going after the more OBVIOUS ones (the organizations in the countries that actually committed the crime). Daniel Pearl went after the head hauncho (O.bin Laden) on that, supposedly seeking answers to the why's, and ended up being murdered for a simple interview.

The USA, on paper, is not a Christian country, may I remind you.

After the whole Iraq fiasco, the world seemed to have stopped supporting the USA in this quest to pursue the ones who caused the problem, because our president at the time was chasing after other matters that didn't even seem related to everything else that happened on September 11, 2001.

I have no qualms with supporting the US find and eliminate terrorist threats. I just think that Bush should have done it more efficiently, and directly.