The Political Discussion Thread

[Chaka-Z0]

but they don't think they should have to tolerate any other views, and will use any means at their disposal to silence ideas that are counter to their agenda.

Like asking the Russians for help or deporting migrants? Reflection at its finest Annoyed

Looking at it from their point of view, it makes sense. If you were a lefty, and had to argue their points, wouldn't you want to silence your opposition? They know they haven't got a logical leg to stand on, so they don't want other ideas and viewpoints to be heard.

No, our point of view is that the policies and ideology you embrace is a menace for humanity, human rights and our planet (climate). It isn't a mere disagreements on how to run things.

Myself, it doesn't bother me a bit when anyone here goes off on an tirade of insults and so forth. That speaks far more about the person making the insults than it does about the target of the tirade.

I honestly expected a ban a long time ago but seems like we've got immunity. You're such an idiot Annoyed but that's okay, we respect you for who you are

[magi877]

You didn't, you did it via treaties, the same kind of treaties the US now likes to rip up because they are "inconvenient"
But on the topic of press ganging, your little Hitler was here making moves we should accept a (another) US nuclear missile base.
Can we get one in Washington?

Volentary?
Are you nuts?
Yeah, we WANTED to go to war for the USA.
That's beyond stupid.
We had no gripe with Vietnam, but the US did.


Then use it.


LOL!!

Didn't think that with Obama or Bush (either of them)
Perhaps it's trump?

Yep.

Like Annoyed, you don't present any new thoughts.
Give me one and I might not attack it.



Because people will not accept similarities?
I've said to annoyed over and over again I lean right on economics, but because I lean left socially, we can have no common ground.
Not my Idea.

so australians are people who have no control over their own affairs then? Your govt sent forces to all of those conflicts of their own accord

you sound like a child "Johnny made me do it". yeah maybe Johnny pushed you to do something, but in the end it was still your choice wasn't?

as for Trump, can't you put the points together? What do you think I meant by 'MAGAmaniacal'. yes i know pretty much every President for awhile now has used the phrase 'make america great again', but its current usage is attributed to one and only one person

[magi877]

You asked me about those interests for wars the US has gotten into/started. I can summarize them all. Imperialism.

You see, when you see yourself as "God's gift to the world" you end up justifying all sorts of goals no matter how unimportant they truly are. Manifest Destiny was the first one of them all. The 13 states did not need to expand or become the greatest, they could have stated the way they were and be fine. A smaller nation like that could have a weaker central government, be neutral in world politics and allow other nations like the UK to play world cop. But we just had to expand west for the sake of expanding west because "reasons".

We could have expanded to the rockies and been satisfied, but we nearly started a suicidal war with the UK over Oregon and Washington. We could have been satisfied with that be we started a war with Mexico which ended up leading to new divisions in American politics which resulted in the Civil War. We could have been satisfied with that too. We had access to resources, land, population, and technological know how. But we just needed to take islands just because and went to war with Spain and built an empire. In order to keep that empire intact, we had to send troops to the Philippines and justify it by making ventures into controlling other countries and taking over more islands.

That's where the banana republics come in. We overthrew democratic governments in Central America, messed with the politics of Mexico and caused a civil war in Colombia all in the name of protecting American businesses and empire. As a result those nations developed dictatorships (as intended by the US) which naturally did as all dictatorships do, breed corruption. And now we have Central American countries that are rife with corruption, crime, and poverty.

In order to keep and maintain this empire, we needed more resources and markets so we got kept up with these possessions and continued to meddle in the affairs of Central America, the Pacific, and the Caribbean, we even bought some Islands in the Caribbean from the UK just because. We had this empire in tact after WWII, a war we got dragged into because we didn't like that Japan was doing the things we were doing and started embargoing their oil...so naturally Japan attacked us.

Then after WWII, we wanted to stop the spread of communism, a noble goal, yes, but we also wanted to be the dominant power so we could justify and defend our empire. We set up bases, overthrew democratic governments, supported European colonialism in Vietnam, then when that failed we supported a dictator, then when that failed we killed said dictator and found ourselves over involved in Vietnam all in the name of stopping the spread of communism.

So we used the spread of communism as leverage to get small countries like Australia to sell their souls to us and allow us to build bases on their countries like Pine Gap. We built international alliances that would most certainly place us at war by obligation such as SEATO and NATO. We kept our troops based in Japan and West Germany and thus got into wars like Korea. Some of that was inevitable any way you cut it, but not all of it. As a result we built up economic ties and investments in many countries similar to what we did with the banana republics. So when any nation descended into inevitable chaos (a common side effect of imperialism) we had to defend those companies and safeguard those investments by getting involved, especially if communists were a part of it...and they always seemed to be (even when they weren't). The thing is....we didn't always have to get involved, but the warhawks would always yell "It's communists" and claim that we had to and so we did, because imperialism.

The Cold war ends but we still have our bases, our military treaties, our companies/investments, and we have made enemies that would love to expand to eventually attack us like China. Russian and China would love to invest where we have invested, send their companies where we have them. So they would love for us to leave so they could move in and cause even more imperialism and destabalize the world even more. Last time that growing world powers were allowed to do that was...the 1930s and that didn't end well.

So this is what GF is talking about. We created this situation and want to haphazardly pull out and cry unfair when its pointed out that it isn't the best idea to pull out. We can't just unring that bell of imperialism. It has to be a slow thoughtful process in which we consider our allies and help others take control of their own nations. So far, no one is making any such moves. And to be honest, if we don't keep China and Russia and Iran in Check, they will do just as we did, except we'll be the butt of an imperialist power. China in the 1600's decided that it didn't need to do anything else because it was too big to fail. That did not work out well for them and it wont for us.

I'd love nothing else than to see the US peel back its imperialism, but i know that we still have to be involved out there. There's a line I heard a few years back, "Visit Russia before Russia visits you". We have a lot of nice things that new or resurgent world powers would like to have. Do you really think they wouldn't take it? After all, we did and the Europeans did it before us, and the Middle East did it before them. Being the "Greatest country on Earth" comes with a hefty price. The US could have been just like any other democracy, but that wasn't good enough.



Propping up a corrupt South Vietnamese government after supporting French attempts to recolonize it was an American venture that just snowballed into the vietnam war. There was no one cause, it was just a series of stupid decisions from Ike down to Nixon.

this is all the same as i have been saying. when or where have i taken the classic american line of "america the greatest nation on earth; we're right and your wrong; my country- right or wrong!"?

I'll help- never

and on Vietnam I agree, but it goes back further

Ho Cho Mihn, before he went by that name, approached the US delegation in PAris after WW1 (WORLD WAR ONE)with a version of a declaration of Independence for french indochina.

he thought that Wilson and the americans, along with other victors who were creating nations for other peoples who had been part of empire (like poland, hungary, czechoslovakia, etc)- were actually serious when they talked about the free determination of all peoples

he was rejected

after ww2, he tried similar methods before resorting to violence

of course the french insisted on their return to vietnam, and america and england did nothing to stop them

-----------------------
If people like GF are so upset with the nature of the decisions their country has taken in the past and how they are doing now , then they should take it up with their govt's ,not the US

If he and others there want the US out of Australia, (which is great as far as i am concerned, lets get out of EVERYWHERE)then he should organize a movement to make that happen

[Annoyed]

I think you are looking to the past, rather than the future.
The whole notion of MAGA is rooted in the past, when things were "good" for you.

Well, in my opinion, by and large, the US and its citizens were doing much better 50-ish years ago than we are now.

We peaked in the 60's; the time of the "space race", and our successfully placing a man on the moon in 10 years in response to Kennedy's challenge. We've been on a downhill slide ever since.

Aside from the TKO of the Apollo program, our average citizen's standard of living was much higher back then. Most working folks earned enough to comfortably support themselves and their families on ONE income, leaving the other spouse, usually the wife to stay home and properly raise the kids. Have you noticed, we aren't doing so well at that anymore? Pretty hard to raise your kids when you have to farm the job out to the lowest bidder.

We didn't have the epidemic of mass shootings, despite there being far fewer gun laws and restrictions back then. They haven't done us much good, have they?

I'm not going to list all of the different ways things have gone downhill, but there have been a great many changes over the past 50+ years, and time has shown the results to be fairly poor.

Is it any wonder I would rather turn the clock back on a lot of the crap that we've done?

[Annoyed]

Like asking the Russians for help or deporting migrants? Reflection at its finest Annoyed

And what exactly is wrong with expecting immigrants to follow the laws of the country they want to emigrate to? Someone who wants to move here breaks the law as their first step? Sorry, out you go.

Coming into the country illegally or overstaying a visa or whatever else is against the law. What is wrong with enforcing that law? Doing so is not racist in nature, it's simply enforcing the law.

No, our point of view is that the policies and ideology you embrace is a menace for humanity, human rights and our planet (climate). It isn't a mere disagreements on how to run things.

No, your point of view is that you want to trash our economy based on what is no more than a theory. I don't care how many people agree with the theory that mankind is responsible for climate change, it is still nothing more than a theory.
There is a lot of good, common sense evidence that we aren't, such as the climate having been changing continually since well before we arose, as well as plenty of evidence and outright admissions that the whole idea is simply a way to get money out of US citizens and companies. Even setting that last aspect aside, you can't prove that mankind is the cause.

Our economy runs on energy. You screw with energy supplies, you trigger recessions. How often has this played out via oil embargoes and such? So, you want to trash our economy on the basis of nothing more than a theory. Nope. Not going to buy into that, ever.

I honestly expected a ban a long time ago but seems like we've got immunity. You're such an idiot Annoyed but that's okay, we respect you for who you are

Again, insults don't bother me in the least. It says more about the person hurling the insults. Which is why I've posted several times that I don't want the moderators to censor, delete or take any action against any poster on this board based upon whatever they may say to me. I'd rather let their own words speak for them.

And in general, you're right. We do have a fairly open board here, with very little censorship. That is the most valuable aspect of this place if you ask me.

[jelgate]

We also had the racism. Why does everyone forget the racism?

[Chaka-Z0]

No, your point of view is that you want to trash our economy based on what is no more than a theory.

Where goes the emissions? They disappear? Maybe Mexico? Surely you know that those gas stay within our atmosphere, unless you deny that too? Then logically, when you stack those gases... something... happens? No?

If I throw Jelgate in a room with you and he just keeps farting over and over again because he just had two sittings of bacon pudding, do you think the temperature will increase or at some point you'll be unable to breath?

But somehow it's not Jel's fault if you suffocate, it's just a theory.

Again, insults don't bother me in the least. It says more about the person hurling the insults. Which is why I've posted several times that I don't want the moderators to censor, delete or take any action against any poster on this board based upon whatever they may say to me. I'd rather let their own words speak for them.

And in general, you're right. We do have a fairly open board here, with very little censorship. That is the most valuable aspect of this place if you ask me.

I'd rather deal with someone that has a foul mouth because he gives it to me straight, whereas hypocrites hide behind a mask of politeness.

[Chaka-Z0]

We also had the racism. Why does everyone forget the racism?

Because you still have it

[jelgate]

It was a lot worse back then which was my point. Annoyed is only seeing the good and ignoring all the bad of the past

[Chaka-Z0]

Of course. He also doesn't take into account one simple fact...

In 1970 the world population was close to half what it is now. No sh*t there's less resources to go around

[Gatefan1976]

so australians are people who have no control over their own affairs then? Your govt sent forces to all of those conflicts of their own accord

No, we honoured our deals, because they were made in good faith.

you sound like a child "Johnny made me do it". yeah maybe Johnny pushed you to do something, but in the end it was still your choice wasn't?

This is the most ridiculous comparison to geopolitics I have ever heard, it's almost at Godwin levels.

as for Trump, can't you put the points together? What do you think I meant by 'MAGAmaniacal'. yes i know pretty much every President for awhile now has used the phrase 'make america great again', but its current usage is attributed to one and only one person

Umm, Obama didn't, Bush didn't, Clinton didn't, Bush Sr didn't.
Left, Right, none of them did it.
It's given to trump because HE is the one who does it.
He, more than any president in modern history pushes how "different" you are, and to him, different is bad.
MAGA means Make America what it was in the 50's and 60's, and allowing all the social problems of that time to just come back.
Is that what you want?

[magi877]

No, we honoured our deals, because they were made in good faith.

This is the most ridiculous comparison to geopolitics I have ever heard, it's almost at Godwin levels.

Umm, Obama didn't, Bush didn't, Clinton didn't, Bush Sr didn't.
Left, Right, none of them did it.
It's given to trump because HE is the one who does it.
He, more than any president in modern history pushes how "different" you are, and to him, different is bad.
MAGA means Make America what it was in the 50's and 60's, and allowing all the social problems of that time to just come back.
Is that what you want?

no, not what "i want". you persist on trying to put me into a corner, that corner holding ideas and beliefs that we both share, albeit at the very furthest edges of said corner

but, you need t o relax, maybe do some Yoga or some feedback sessions?

either one, do it while watching this, both sides have used it:

[magi877]

and that whole 'america is the only nation that bans illegal immigrants' mania?

https://scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...1a&oe=5DEC0691

[Gatefan1976]

no, not what "i want". you persist on trying to put me into a corner, that corner holding ideas and beliefs that we both share, albeit at the very furthest edges of said corner

I put you into a "corner" because you refuse to say what is wrong.

but, you need t o relax, maybe do some Yoga or some feedback sessions?

Yeah, I need to chill.

either one, do it while watching this, both sides have used it:

Watched it, not the same as trump.
Clinton sold hope, Trump sells conflict.

[Gatefan1976]

and that whole 'america is the only nation that bans illegal immigrants' mania?

https://scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...1a&oe=5DEC0691

Who said that?