The Political Discussion Thread

[magi877]

YES, yes I do.
That was the point you missed.

you're just making garbage up now!

how much have you been drinking? Of course i know she is a democrat

when did you make any point to that fact that i 'missed'?

[Gatefan1976]

more reverse american exceptionalism here

why does america have to be 'your hope'?

why would you want to come here instead of staying in your nation and making it a place for 'your hope'?

America sells itself as the "land of dreams", forgive a 8 year old for wanting to go there and become an actor or work in the movie industry.

I wouldn't do it now however, you lot have "cured" that issue.
Today, I wouldn't take free tickets to the USA.

As a Kid, the US INSPIRED me, as an ADULT, it makes me see the worst of humanity.

[Gatefan1976]

you're just making garbage up now!

how much have you been drinking? Of course i know she is a democrat

when did you make any point to that fact that i 'missed'?

It's OK for dems to go after dems, and if they do, it does not invalidate them.
Does that help?
I'll take 20 dems tearing each other apart over 50 Repubs who don't have the BALLS to disagree with a Tyrant.
You may differ with that.

[magi877]

CORRECT.
But when Vietnam, S.K, Iraq and Afganistan came along for the USA, you ALSO had no issues with the ANZAC troops being bullet catchers.
Don't pretend to be better than the English, because history proves you are not.

What a load of crap.
The "theatre commander" has 9 times out of ten, post WW2 been AMERICAN.
It's real easy to claim partisanship when you get all the cards.
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No, it's not "another way" or "another method"
YOU FK'ED UP.
Just say it.

I'll help you.
The white Australia policy was a collosal FK'UP
WE FK'ED UP
No hiding, no defence, no deflection.
No other means, method or distraction.

Just excusing it.

the wars you mentioned? so exactly when was it that American forces invaded Australia or any other commonwealth nation and pressed ganged your citizens into service?

your govt voluntarily joined those campaigns. and in the case of at least Korea, the UN asked them to join. And, as ARETOOD pointed out, the UN is not the US, so, I'll defer you to him on that.

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While I am impressed with your ability to get your cursing past the censor/filter here, i prefer to use a larger vocabulary if possible. I have no need to re-state (again) my thoughts on American past or present actions.

If you read any of my posts with any modicum of attention or understanding, you would know I am excusing nothing.

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But i will re-state this:

Is there some kind of mass hysteria here that precludes any of you from comprehending or accepting that not all Americans are 'Murica first, MAGAmaniacal, right wing blowhards?

can you just not process that all of us are not on 1 of 2 political teams or that we may have ideas that run quite contrary to the majority of Americans?

or, are you all so entrenched in your confirmation biases about americans that you will just not even attempt to process something that may cause a cognitive dissonance in your dorsolateral prefrontal cortex? So, to prevent this, you must continue to attack, belittle and insult anyone who may generate a new thought and challenge your perceptions and prejudices?

If so, then why do you continue to have a discussion here that only goes round and round with no possibility of amenability or basic acceptance of someone else's opinion EVEN WHEN THAT OPINION STRONGLY RESEMBLES YOUR OWN at its core?

[magi877]

America sells itself as the "land of dreams", forgive a 8 year old for wanting to go there and become an actor or work in the movie industry.

I wouldn't do it now however, you lot have "cured" that issue.
Today, I wouldn't take free tickets to the USA.

As a Kid, the US INSPIRED me, as an ADULT, it makes me see the worst of humanity.

Well then, glad we could help!

[magi877]

It's OK for dems to go after dems, and if they do, it does not invalidate them.
Does that help?
I'll take 20 dems tearing each other apart over 50 Repubs who don't have the BALLS to disagree with a Tyrant.
You may differ with that.

yes, I'll take one seemingly honest democrat who has no fear to speak truth against hypocrisy.

[magi877]

instead of retyping i'll just repost this

i posed it back in january, i think it was one of my first

no one responded to it, and one of you even privately complimented me on it

i think it sums up my idea on america's rightful place in the world (or for that matter, ANY nations place in the world)

as far as America allowing or 'recruiting' former military from other nations? no, it does not. US law does not allow it unless a former soldier from another nation has a permanent green card or in some cases for a very few specialties (in skill they already have like languages) then a person with a student visa could join under the MAVNI program (which is a disaster by the way, most recruits don't get to go to basic trng and are discharged for not meeting basic entry security clearances after enlistment)

DACA is still a recruitment tool for a very small group of those it apples to as well EVEN THOUGH IT IS not a law yet. the military, for some reason, can still enlist ppl under DACA

HOWEVER there are NO special enlistment or visa provisions for former soldiers from other nations-- NONE. Anyone who was a former mili member would have to meet either the visa requirements or meet MAVNI req's same as a total civilian would

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with any and all references to any of our foreign entanglements, i am not disagreeing with you on reasons why we got into them, just that we need to get out of them.

the only US citizens who get any benefit from our overseas exploits are those very few ppl at the top of defense or other industry that profit from our presence elsewhere. the everyday american taxpayer does not.

and, the US military is having a growing HUGE issue with recruiting americans!

even back when i was a recruiter, this problem was a big one

it is NOT motivation or willingness issue. there are plenty- or enough- young ppl (18-34) who are willing to join

the issue is so many are disqualified, outright because of things like:

-criminal record

-they have had medical pins, plates screws placed in their body

other med issues like asthma or have been on things like ritalin for adhd

hell, even eczema in most cases is a permanent DQ

- overweight and or excess body fat in excess of a certain maximum allowed amount prior to basic trng

-- many, even those who are not overweight, cannot eve nrun a mile or do a basic push up. So many american schools no longer have a mandatory gym class and most elementary schools no longer have a recess for outdoor play

the biggest tissue? Aprrox 90% of those who are NOT dq'd for any above reason, cannot pass the ASVAB aptitude test. this is a test where the 'pass/fail" is determined by 9th grade level math and english!!

these kids can get into a college (because if a kid has the right govt funding, SAT's can be waived in favor of a 'entrance essay' instead) but they cannot pass the ASVAB for the military

so, we cant even field our own army to required strength.. ALL OTHER NATIONS that rely on treaties with us should start taking heed of this!! soon, no one in america will be qualified to join to come over there to help anyone!!
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yes, close PINE GAP and any other us facility or at least, kick us out and use it for yourselves. you could become a collector of info via the tech and sell it out to the highest bidder

now that would be a 'balance of power' game changer! of course, you'd have to get either some PATRIOT missiles or SAM 300's to defend the site from the US or anyone else who'd want to just wipe the facility off the map....

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treaties are only as good as long as they are convenient and one side can have continued confidence in the other

i think that Australia places far too much confidence in the US

there is nothing there that US corporations need to exploit. the us bases and pine gap are there sure, but if Australia were attacked by say, China, they would probably destroy places like that first. then all the US would have compelling it to show up and defend would be that treaty.

by that time, it would no longer be convenient to honor it

do you really think that US corporations and retail giants that have tremendous lobbying power in congress would ever let the US go to war with their biggest supplier-China?

No they would not

and if something with CHina happened now and it made threats or outright attacked Aus, under Trump and this stupidity going on now, do you really think he would honor the treaty?

"No, people, its on Congress.. though Australia is a TREMENDOUS friend to the US, until I get that 5 billion for the wall, we just can't do anything about the Chinese threat to Australia" I can just hear Trump spewing some garbage like that now
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so much of the world has placed so much trust and become very dependent on the US.

Maybe that was the way to go in the past

NO nation should trust us any longer.

[Gatefan1976]

the wars you mentioned? so exactly when was it that American forces invaded Australia or any other commonwealth nation and pressed ganged your citizens into service?

You didn't, you did it via treaties, the same kind of treaties the US now likes to rip up because they are "inconvenient"
But on the topic of press ganging, your little Hitler was here making moves we should accept a (another) US nuclear missile base.
Can we get one in Washington?

your govt voluntarily joined those campaigns. and in the case of at least Korea, the UN asked them to join. And, as ARETOOD pointed out, the UN is not the US, so, I'll defer you to him on that.

Volentary?
Are you nuts?
Yeah, we WANTED to go to war for the USA.
That's beyond stupid.
We had no gripe with Vietnam, but the US did.

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While I am impressed with your ability to get your cursing past the censor/filter here, i prefer to use a larger vocabulary if possible. I have no need to re-state (again) my thoughts on American past or present actions.

Then use it.

If you read any of my posts with any modicum of attention or understanding, you would know I am excusing nothing.

LOL!!

-------------
But i will re-state this:

Is there some kind of mass hysteria here that precludes any of you from comprehending or accepting that not all Americans are 'Murica first, MAGAmaniacal, right wing blowhards?

Didn't think that with Obama or Bush (either of them)
Perhaps it's trump?

can you just not process that all of us are not on 1 of 2 political teams or that we may have ideas that run quite contrary to the majority of Americans?

Yep.

or, are you all so entrenched in your confirmation biases about americans that you will just not even attempt to process something that may cause a cognitive dissonance in your dorsolateral prefrontal cortex? So, to prevent this, you must continue to attack, belittle and insult anyone who may generate a new thought and challenge your perceptions and prejudices?

Like Annoyed, you don't present any new thoughts.
Give me one and I might not attack it.

If so, then why do you continue to have a discussion here that only goes round and round with no possibility of amenability or basic acceptance of someone else's opinion EVEN WHEN THAT OPINION STRONGLY RESEMBLES YOUR OWN at its core?

Because people will not accept similarities?
I've said to annoyed over and over again I lean right on economics, but because I lean left socially, we can have no common ground.
Not my Idea.

[Gatefan1976]

You didn't, you did it via treaties, the same kind of treaties the US now likes to rip up because they are "inconvenient"

More relevant now, yes?

[Gatefan1976]

yes, I'll take one seemingly honest democrat who has no fear to speak truth against hypocrisy.

Then do it.

[Coco Pops]

Wasn't the Vietnam war caused by LBJ getting a huge war bone? He wanted boots on the ground in there and so everyone else tied to the USA was dragged into it.

[aretood2]

i am not afraid of saying america f'd up. i have been saying this using other words and method. like, "we should have never gotten involved in regime change wars and we should never do it again"

that certaintly does not sound like i am giving an endorsement for US action

You asked me about those interests for wars the US has gotten into/started. I can summarize them all. Imperialism.

You see, when you see yourself as "God's gift to the world" you end up justifying all sorts of goals no matter how unimportant they truly are. Manifest Destiny was the first one of them all. The 13 states did not need to expand or become the greatest, they could have stated the way they were and be fine. A smaller nation like that could have a weaker central government, be neutral in world politics and allow other nations like the UK to play world cop. But we just had to expand west for the sake of expanding west because "reasons".

We could have expanded to the rockies and been satisfied, but we nearly started a suicidal war with the UK over Oregon and Washington. We could have been satisfied with that be we started a war with Mexico which ended up leading to new divisions in American politics which resulted in the Civil War. We could have been satisfied with that too. We had access to resources, land, population, and technological know how. But we just needed to take islands just because and went to war with Spain and built an empire. In order to keep that empire intact, we had to send troops to the Philippines and justify it by making ventures into controlling other countries and taking over more islands.

That's where the banana republics come in. We overthrew democratic governments in Central America, messed with the politics of Mexico and caused a civil war in Colombia all in the name of protecting American businesses and empire. As a result those nations developed dictatorships (as intended by the US) which naturally did as all dictatorships do, breed corruption. And now we have Central American countries that are rife with corruption, crime, and poverty.

In order to keep and maintain this empire, we needed more resources and markets so we got kept up with these possessions and continued to meddle in the affairs of Central America, the Pacific, and the Caribbean, we even bought some Islands in the Caribbean from the UK just because. We had this empire in tact after WWII, a war we got dragged into because we didn't like that Japan was doing the things we were doing and started embargoing their oil...so naturally Japan attacked us.

Then after WWII, we wanted to stop the spread of communism, a noble goal, yes, but we also wanted to be the dominant power so we could justify and defend our empire. We set up bases, overthrew democratic governments, supported European colonialism in Vietnam, then when that failed we supported a dictator, then when that failed we killed said dictator and found ourselves over involved in Vietnam all in the name of stopping the spread of communism.

So we used the spread of communism as leverage to get small countries like Australia to sell their souls to us and allow us to build bases on their countries like Pine Gap. We built international alliances that would most certainly place us at war by obligation such as SEATO and NATO. We kept our troops based in Japan and West Germany and thus got into wars like Korea. Some of that was inevitable any way you cut it, but not all of it. As a result we built up economic ties and investments in many countries similar to what we did with the banana republics. So when any nation descended into inevitable chaos (a common side effect of imperialism) we had to defend those companies and safeguard those investments by getting involved, especially if communists were a part of it...and they always seemed to be (even when they weren't). The thing is....we didn't always have to get involved, but the warhawks would always yell "It's communists" and claim that we had to and so we did, because imperialism.

The Cold war ends but we still have our bases, our military treaties, our companies/investments, and we have made enemies that would love to expand to eventually attack us like China. Russian and China would love to invest where we have invested, send their companies where we have them. So they would love for us to leave so they could move in and cause even more imperialism and destabalize the world even more. Last time that growing world powers were allowed to do that was...the 1930s and that didn't end well.

So this is what GF is talking about. We created this situation and want to haphazardly pull out and cry unfair when its pointed out that it isn't the best idea to pull out. We can't just unring that bell of imperialism. It has to be a slow thoughtful process in which we consider our allies and help others take control of their own nations. So far, no one is making any such moves. And to be honest, if we don't keep China and Russia and Iran in Check, they will do just as we did, except we'll be the butt of an imperialist power. China in the 1600's decided that it didn't need to do anything else because it was too big to fail. That did not work out well for them and it wont for us.

I'd love nothing else than to see the US peel back its imperialism, but i know that we still have to be involved out there. There's a line I heard a few years back, "Visit Russia before Russia visits you". We have a lot of nice things that new or resurgent world powers would like to have. Do you really think they wouldn't take it? After all, we did and the Europeans did it before us, and the Middle East did it before them. Being the "Greatest country on Earth" comes with a hefty price. The US could have been just like any other democracy, but that wasn't good enough.

Wasn't the Vietnam war caused by LBJ getting a huge war bone? He wanted boots on the ground in there and so everyone else tied to the USA was dragged into it.

Propping up a corrupt South Vietnamese government after supporting French attempts to recolonize it was an American venture that just snowballed into the vietnam war. There was no one cause, it was just a series of stupid decisions from Ike down to Nixon.

[Annoyed]

i am posting mainly, as an individual american with a opinion, yet, you are attacking me as if I AM the American government

if you have issue with the nature of the relationship between your country and the US, then I suggest you begin a campaign. get some sigs together and petition the govt to break the alliance

You are so blinded by hate and vitriol for America you are blind to the fact that I am advocating-as a voter- for my nation to do the very things you want us to do!!

on here you are practicing the very opposite of political civil discourse. you try to shut down everyone who differs, even slightly, from your opinion instead of engaging in civil argument

i have never seen annoyed or anyone else on here (like when you attacked Sgalisa for their mention of religion) attack you r anyone else in the same method and manner as you

your behavior is the height of intolerance and completely illiberal

I don't think GF hates the US itself, he just strongly disagrees with the current management.

But he is a leftie, and the left is well known for preaching tolerance when it comes to accepting their ideas, but they don't think they should have to tolerate any other views, and will use any means at their disposal to silence ideas that are counter to their agenda.

Looking at it from their point of view, it makes sense. If you were a lefty, and had to argue their points, wouldn't you want to silence your opposition? They know they haven't got a logical leg to stand on, so they don't want other ideas and viewpoints to be heard.

Myself, it doesn't bother me a bit when anyone here goes off on an tirade of insults and so forth. That speaks far more about the person making the insults than it does about the target of the tirade.

[Gatefan1976]

Tood, I love you brother, but they will not listen.
It's always "the others" fault.

People like you are what make America the place I wanted to go to as a kid.

[Gatefan1976]

I don't think GF hates the US itself, he just strongly disagrees with the current management.

I think you are looking to the past, rather than the future.
The whole notion of MAGA is rooted in the past, when things were "good" for you.

But he is a leftie, and the left is well known for preaching tolerance when it comes to accepting their ideas, but they don't think they should have to tolerate any other views, and will use any means at their disposal to silence ideas that are counter to their agenda.

The fact I continue to talk to you disproves this.
but hey, have your moment.

Looking at it from their point of view, it makes sense. If you were a lefty, and had to argue their points, wouldn't you want to silence your opposition? They know they haven't got a logical leg to stand on, so they don't want other ideas and viewpoints to be heard.

Do I silence you?

Myself, it doesn't bother me a bit when anyone here goes off on an tirade of insults and so forth. That speaks far more about the person making the insults than it does about the target of the tirade.

Thats because, deep down you know you are wrong.
You know defending idiots, hypocrites and traitors is what you "have" to do, and you do it.
You don't have the balls to be honest, and you claim you are "better" for having no balls.