The Political Discussion Thread

[Falcon Horus]

Just give the Russians this instead:
https://sarahpalinchannel.com/

They might want to keep her.

[mad_gater]

That's a two-way street since the Jews seem hellbend on eradicating the Muslims... hence why there will never be a peaceful solution.



Kinda like Israel using rockets and drones and airstrikes -- not hiding behind human shiels, just hiding behind their technology. So, if their cause is so noble, why are they hiding behind their technology?



...considering no one has outright called it a war yet... just saying... it's still a conflict. However, yes in war all is fair (sadly).



Did you know that Jews used tunnels to escape the getto's? And to bring in necessary supplies?

Tunnels can be used for all sorts of things - Hamas obviously uses them mostly for bad things, hence why I agree they should be blocked or destroyed. However, it's only fair to open up the borders of the Gaza strip and allow trade, economy, exchange to take place which benefits everyone. Open borders still means, Hamas or anyone else with bad intentions can go about doing their thing, but you'd have border controls. A joint operation between Israel and Palestine... exchange knowledge, go forwards together. Much better than then annihilating one another (or one side).

But I guess that's not happening any time soon...



I wasn't alive during WWII, and seeings as how I live in an area which was occupied land, I might have thought differently then. The Germans were our occupiers, much like Israel is occupying -- they're not really occupying Gaza but keeping it locked off from the rest of the world - open air prison, so I can imagine we felt a little like the Palestinians back then. Do to them, what they do to us!

And I think there's a fairly good reason why using nuclear weapons has become a bit of a no-go since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was a succes, but clearly something shocked the world awake hard enough that it never wanted a repeat.



Did you know that the Germans in WWI leveled cities in Belgium cause we wouldn't let them pass to France? Three of them are called Martyr Cities now (Louvain, Aarschot, Dendermonde) -- burned down, civilians shot and killed. Remembrance celebrations are happening all august (Mozart's Requiem will be played in Leuven - my home town).

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1947 - the US retaliated with strength. I saw an article recently that the last surviving crew member of the Enola Gay passed away. He defended the action of dropping the bomb but never wanted to see anything like it again. So, while at the one hand he's supporting the action, he's also judging it.

Hamas surely would love to annihilate every last Jew... I wonder how you would feel if a person (no matter what faith or race) would come in and tell you your land is no longer yours but theirs. Your rights are now void, and they're building a wall around that one bit of desert they leave you to live. No trade, no economy, no future.

And what's in Israel's charter?

I don't stand behind Hamas' way of dealing with things - I boycot Israel so I must be in favor of Hamas. That's it, right?

Well, you're wrong. I do not condone the actions of either, and actions must be taken to resolve the issue, but both parties are in the wrong when it comes to this conflict. So, I chose to stand with the innocents who die and suffer - on both sides.

Same goes for all the innocents in every conflict on this big, blue dot in a very big universe.

and I guess that's the whole crux of the matter isn't it? we can all agree that "war is hell" as the old saying goes and no one person in their right mind would ever wish for a state of war/conflict between 2 nations I think

but unfortunately, where one group seeks total annihilation of or dominion of another, there will always be war/conflict

historically speaking though, every single war/conflict that has erupted between the Israelis and the Arabs (or on a religious level, Jews and Muslims) was initiated by the Arabs/Muslims...that begs the question of why is that? to me that's not the actions of a so-called "religion of peace"

Could Israel be doing things a little differently? Maybe or maybe not....but in assigning moral "blame" if you will, I'm more inclined to assign most, if not all, of the blame to those who adhere to a religion whose so-called "holy book" preaches nothing but absolute and undeniable hatred against those not of the faith espoused in said "holy book," as the Koran does (I've encountered various passages here and there of the Koran and from where I'm sitting there seems to be no shortage of verses spouting abject hatred and enslavement and even murder of those who refuse Islam)

You bring up the notion of "how would you feel if you'd been oppressed by a people?" implying that the reason many Muslims seem to want to wipe Israel off the map and stamp out every Jew (and Christian for that matter) is because they're being oppressed (an opinion for which I've seen very little, if any, defensible evidence btw)....that is no excuse for violating the universal principles of just war...by EITHER side

one of those principles is that neither side should INTENTIONALLY seek to harm non-combatants...so it thus remains to be seen whether Israel is INTENTIONALLY seeking to harm Palestinian non-combatants

and we could turn your "how would you feel if you're oppressed" comment around....how would you feel about a people whose "prophet" demanded that you go out into the world and conquer it by force of arms in the name of God (or Allah in this case)...as that is precisely what happened in time past...the Arabs (or whichever ones chose to follow Muhammed) at any rate, went out from the Arabian lands and ran roughshod over Jerusalem and other such "infidel" holy sites and conquered them, terrorizing the inhabitants of said holy sites with the whole "convert to Islam or die" spiel

I'd say you could probably reasonably expect those who were so victimized, once they've taken their land back, to put up some sanctions against said aggressors

....which then goes to P90's comment about borders being irrelevant.....if borders are irrelevant then I guess there's no moral standing to resist an aggressor is there?

[SoulReaver]

They can protest

tyranny: "STFU"
democracy: "keep talking"

yup big difference

Or wait

wait till infection sets in before taking the cure - sounds like a plan

[SGalisa]

Just give the Russians this instead:
https://sarahpalinchannel.com/

Agh! LOL!
They don't *want* her, and she doesn't want them over here, either.
But Putin was more popular (in the USA) than Obama before Russia's military might invaded Crimea, and then decided that wasn't enough, so they wanted the entire Ukraine, too.
Not sure what people in the USA think now, tho. If the Ukraine lets itself get absorbed without more fighting, there may be parts of the USA who might be considering, "hey -- just take us, too, Russia!"

No nukes, necessary in the process!

[Gatefan1976]

and I guess that's the whole crux of the matter isn't it? we can all agree that "war is hell" as the old saying goes and no one person in their right mind would ever wish for a state of war/conflict between 2 nations I think

but unfortunately, where one group seeks total annihilation of or dominion of another, there will always be war/conflict

What if BOTH groups want the same thing?

historically speaking though, every single war/conflict that has erupted between the Israelis and the Arabs (or on a religious level, Jews and Muslims) was initiated by the Arabs/Muslims...that begs the question of why is that? to me that's not the actions of a so-called "religion of peace"

Who said Extreme Islamists are a "peaceful group"?
What you seem to forget oh so easily is that any deviation from your viewpoint does NOT equal sympathy for the other side. If I feel sympathy for the innocent victims of Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki (yes, I can name them without google, or just saying "them Jap or Kraut cities"), that does not mean I agree with either side.
I DO however reserve the right to say that the firestorms of Dresden were wrong, as were the Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is NO military evidence that supports the notion that any of these acts were anything more than retaliatory acts. By the time these 3 things were done, the "opposition" had already lost.

Could Israel be doing things a little differently? Maybe or maybe not....but in assigning moral "blame" if you will, I'm more inclined to assign most, if not all, of the blame to those who adhere to a religion whose so-called "holy book" preaches nothing but absolute and undeniable hatred against those not of the faith espoused in said "holy book," as the Koran does (I've encountered various passages here and there of the Koran and from where I'm sitting there seems to be no shortage of verses spouting abject hatred and enslavement and even murder of those who refuse Islam)

Keep going, there are passages in the Hadith that allow lying to your non-Muslim allies to get yourself into a good position to betray them, and being rewarded for it.
Know what?
ALL Monotheistic religions demand absolute belief, they ALL demand Absolute servitude, and that includes your OWN "holy book". Want to disagree?
Re-read your Deuteronomy, your Numbers, and then read Jesus' comments on how he was not put on the Earth to change the "law"
Just because you slapped on a fresh coat of "Buddy Christ" on some of your beliefs, and created an entire branch of Apologetics does not mean they are, as written, any less vile that those you seem to hold as "evil"

You bring up the notion of "how would you feel if you'd been oppressed by a people?"

FH brings it up because she knows, better than you or I who are playing Quarterback Tacticians, what it feels like to have her homeland bombed and destroyed. Unless YOU had family in Hawaii when it was bombed, or I had family in Darwin (which I did not), we are merely working off our "feelings"

implying that the reason many Muslims seem to want to wipe Israel off the map and stamp out every Jew (and Christian for that matter) is because they're being oppressed (an opinion for which I've seen very little, if any, defensible evidence btw)....that is no excuse for violating the universal principles of just war...by EITHER side

Define "Just War"

one of those principles is that neither side should INTENTIONALLY seek to harm non-combatants...so it thus remains to be seen whether Israel is INTENTIONALLY seeking to harm Palestinian non-combatants

It's not that think Israel is "intentionally" harming innocent people, they are not. What gets people like me is that they seem to not give a crap if they do. If I bombed your house, because your brother shot at me, and I missed your bro because he was out, but I killed your Mum and Dad and MY response was "meh, I was aiming for your brother, what a waste of a missile" How would YOU feel?
Your parents are not even a damn issue here, they are just "meh, stuff it, Ooops"

and we could turn your "how would you feel if you're oppressed" comment around....how would you feel about a people whose "prophet" demanded that you go out into the world and conquer it by force of arms in the name of God (or Allah in this case)...as that is precisely what happened in time past...the Arabs (or whichever ones chose to follow Muhammed) at any rate, went out from the Arabian lands and ran roughshod over Jerusalem and other such "infidel" holy sites and conquered them, terrorizing the inhabitants of said holy sites with the whole "convert to Islam or die" spiel

Yeah, cause that never came back on the Arabs, did it........
Have you EVER picked up a history book??

I'd say you could probably reasonably expect those who were so victimized, once they've taken their land back, to put up some sanctions against said aggressors

WTF???

....which then goes to P90's comment about borders being irrelevant.....if borders are irrelevant then I guess there's no moral standing to resist an aggressor is there?

Can I have the number of your supplier, cause whoever they are, they have some good gear going on.
Instead of a Massage school dude, try Remedial English, because if I took what you say literally, You make Palpatine seem like a saint.

[Gatefan1976]

Just to make this clear.....
The above rant was NOT "anti-anyone" but Anti-extremism. I really don't care about your race, colour or creed, but I do care what they are used for sometimes.

[aretood2]

That's a two-way street since the Jews seem hellbend on eradicating the Muslims... hence why there will never be a peaceful solution.

Jews? What Jews? So no it's about those stinkin' Jews and their banks eh?

You see this is my problem. Why Jews? It's like saying if Italy invades Greece, the bad guys are Catholics. It's also why many people in Europe are advocating the annihilation and villainization of Jews, not Israelis. I've known a few Jews in my life and none of them seem to have any vendetta against anyone. So I frankly don't know what this is all about.

Kinda like Israel using rockets and drones and airstrikes -- not hiding behind human shiels, just hiding behind their technology. So, if their cause is so noble, why are they hiding behind their technology?

I'm confused, is it Judaism or Israel? Anyway, because America does it and I assure you that for all of its faults, no one is advocating the eradication of anyone just because we have drones and technology to aid America's interests in warfare. And what?

...considering no one has outright called it a war yet... just saying... it's still a conflict. However, yes in war all is fair (sadly).

Iraq and Afghanistan were much the same but no one boycotted the US over it.

Did you know that Jews used tunnels to escape the getto's? And to bring in necessary supplies?

Tunnels can be used for all sorts of things - Hamas obviously uses them mostly for bad things, hence why I agree they should be blocked or destroyed. However, it's only fair to open up the borders of the Gaza strip and allow trade, economy, exchange to take place which benefits everyone. Open borders still means, Hamas or anyone else with bad intentions can go about doing their thing, but you'd have border controls. A joint operation between Israel and Palestine... exchange knowledge, go forwards together. Much better than then annihilating one another (or one side).

They did that, and Hamas blew lots of things up! Palestine was once experiencing an economic growth that would have solved many issues, then Hamas starting firing rockets at an accelerated pace which led to Israeli counter strikes. There were no "Iron Dome" systems at the time, so those strikes were needed. That lead to an economic crisis after Israel was forced to close down the border because of Hamas' bombs. Israel used to collect taxes from Palestinians and send them to the West Bank and Gaza, but Hamas ruined that too.

Same goes for all the innocents in every conflict on this big, blue dot in a very big universe.

Did you boycott the US after Iraq and the bombing of some schools?

There is in the end one very good reason why so many are standing up on behalf of the Palestinian people and crying out against the situation:

Israel has its military. Hamas has its rockets and its guerilla tactics. But the Palestinian people have no one. They're bombed by one side while being threatened and held hostage by the other. They don't even want to be there, but they're trapped, and they're are dying, either by Hamas or Israeli weapons.

Some one has to speak out on their behalf. There is a moral obligation to speak out against the death caused and make sure that those lives are counted and their voices heard. Nothing else matters other than finding a way to end the violence before more lives are lost; and it doesn't matter whether those lives are Palestinian or Israeli. If the situation was reversed there would still be a huge outcry. What matters is that the people that are stuck in Gaza, with no where to go as bombs drop on them and tanks roll in, when all the while they have a gun pointed to their heads, have someone in the world who will speak out for them.[/QUOTE]

I haven't read much anti-Hamas criticism in the Press at all. Nothing that would call out Hamas as much as Israel. It also doesn't help that the Palestinian government is inept and infiltrated by groups like Hamas.

Now in the end, most people understand the difficult situation that Israel is in. But the simple fact of the matter is, that this is not a situation like the two world wars where two massive powers were in a state of total war, where a civilian population is totally geared towards assisting the war effort. This is not even the likes of recent Civil Wars in the Middle East where civilian populations are taking up arms and are divided... This is simply one highly advanced mechanised military force fighting a war where the main body count is civilians... and those civilians want no part of either side.

The Palestinians...well...if you look at the demographics of Palestine and the demographics of the dead casualties you'll find some strange proportions that are indicative of something fishy going on. I highly doubt that many civilians, beyond what is normal, are being killed. In an area with a high proportion of women and children (as someone alluded to before) very few of them are getting killed when compared to men. The only analogous situation to this, is that of a country taking large military casualties and small civilian casualties.

Now, I have seen other arguments that have pointed out civilian body counts in the likes of Afghanistan and Iraq, and it is true that in any war Civilians pay a huge price, and maybe that is just the nature of war... but the thing is, it shouldn't be. And I think it's a stain on humanity in general that we do not pay more attention to tragedies such as this, and do not do more to help.

We are all humans. And as humans we have a duty to one another. Borders on a map don't matter.

The reason people point these things out is because America got better press than Israel. I don't recall people (other than extremists) calling for the annihilation of America, or boycotting America and so on. Sure, there were those that called out the government, specific leaders such as Bush. But none said "Those nasty Christians" like some here say "Jews" instead of "Israeli government/Military."

What if BOTH groups want the same thing?


Who said Extreme Islamists are a "peaceful group"?
What you seem to forget oh so easily is that any deviation from your viewpoint does NOT equal sympathy for the other side. If I feel sympathy for the innocent victims of Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki (yes, I can name them without google, or just saying "them Jap or Kraut cities"), that does not mean I agree with either side.
I DO however reserve the right to say that the firestorms of Dresden were wrong, as were the Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is NO military evidence that supports the notion that any of these acts were anything more than retaliatory acts. By the time these 3 things were done, the "opposition" had already lost.

Keep going, there are passages in the Hadith that allow lying to your non-Muslim allies to get yourself into a good position to betray them, and being rewarded for it.
Know what?
ALL Monotheistic religions demand absolute belief, they ALL demand Absolute servitude, and that includes your OWN "holy book". Want to disagree?
Re-read your Deuteronomy, your Numbers, and then read Jesus' comments on how he was not put on the Earth to change the "law"
Just because you slapped on a fresh coat of "Buddy Christ" on some of your beliefs, and created an entire branch of Apologetics does not mean they are, as written, any less vile that those you seem to hold as "evil"


FH brings it up because she knows, better than you or I who are playing Quarterback Tacticians, what it feels like to have her homeland bombed and destroyed. Unless YOU had family in Hawaii when it was bombed, or I had family in Darwin (which I did not), we are merely working off our "feelings"


Define "Just War"


It's not that think Israel is "intentionally" harming innocent people, they are not. What gets people like me is that they seem to not give a crap if they do. If I bombed your house, because your brother shot at me, and I missed your bro because he was out, but I killed your Mum and Dad and MY response was "meh, I was aiming for your brother, what a waste of a missile" How would YOU feel?
Your parents are not even a damn issue here, they are just "meh, stuff it, Ooops"

Yeah, cause that never came back on the Arabs, did it........
Have you EVER picked up a history book??


WTF???

I know what you are trying to say, but you are going about it all wrong.

[mad_gater]

What if BOTH groups want the same thing?


Who said Extreme Islamists are a "peaceful group"?
What you seem to forget oh so easily is that any deviation from your viewpoint does NOT equal sympathy for the other side. If I feel sympathy for the innocent victims of Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki (yes, I can name them without google, or just saying "them Jap or Kraut cities"), that does not mean I agree with either side.
I DO however reserve the right to say that the firestorms of Dresden were wrong, as were the Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is NO military evidence that supports the notion that any of these acts were anything more than retaliatory acts. By the time these 3 things were done, the "opposition" had already lost.

Keep going, there are passages in the Hadith that allow lying to your non-Muslim allies to get yourself into a good position to betray them, and being rewarded for it.
Know what?
ALL Monotheistic religions demand absolute belief, they ALL demand Absolute servitude, and that includes your OWN "holy book". Want to disagree?
Re-read your Deuteronomy, your Numbers, and then read Jesus' comments on how he was not put on the Earth to change the "law"
Just because you slapped on a fresh coat of "Buddy Christ" on some of your beliefs, and created an entire branch of Apologetics does not mean they are, as written, any less vile that those you seem to hold as "evil"


FH brings it up because she knows, better than you or I who are playing Quarterback Tacticians, what it feels like to have her homeland bombed and destroyed. Unless YOU had family in Hawaii when it was bombed, or I had family in Darwin (which I did not), we are merely working off our "feelings"


Define "Just War"


It's not that think Israel is "intentionally" harming innocent people, they are not. What gets people like me is that they seem to not give a crap if they do. If I bombed your house, because your brother shot at me, and I missed your bro because he was out, but I killed your Mum and Dad and MY response was "meh, I was aiming for your brother, what a waste of a missile" How would YOU feel?
Your parents are not even a damn issue here, they are just "meh, stuff it, Ooops"

Yeah, cause that never came back on the Arabs, did it........
Have you EVER picked up a history book??


WTF???


Can I have the number of your supplier, cause whoever they are, they have some good gear going on.
Instead of a Massage school dude, try Remedial English, because if I took what you say literally, You make Palpatine seem like a saint.

I have read plenty of history...esp as it pertains to the "religion" which carries the false moniker of "religion of peace"

Yes Christianity and Judaism also demand absolute belief. But when was the last time you saw a Jew or Christian holding a gun to your head saying you had to accept Judaism or Christianity or your brain would be made into Swiss cheese? Yet it's a regular occurrence amongst those who adhere to a religion which was founded on the basis of "conquer all infidels"

your final comment says a lot about you....if I didn't know any better I'd say you were reading right out of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"....when you have no logical arguments left, demonize the opposition (in this case via nitpicking about the fact that in an informal setting my writing will be very informal, i.e., lax grammar and spelling)

were I writing a doctoral thesis on this subject you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be taking great pains to make sure my spelling and grammar was as good as it could possibly be....nobody likes a grammar and spelling Nazi...for good reason

I could send you copies of the papers I had to write for the massage school for every class....very few, if any, spelling/grammar mistakes

[StargateMillennium]

tyranny: "STFU"
democracy: "keep talking"

Tyranny: *BANG* He was getting annoying

Democracy: Those people are just racist, violent, criminals and inbred pigs. We should shoot them before they do something to harm society and tell all our children how evil those people are.

[Falcon Horus]

Missed our royal highness and the president of Germany by a hair's breath this afternoon at the remembrance ceremony - 4th of August, the day Germany decided to hike through Belgium to get to France. They met with some unexpected resistance. Felt a bit peeved I missed it.

Saw the news report of the one in Luik, where Prince William and Kate were attending. Some interesting speeches were being said.

[Gatefan1976]

I know what you are trying to say, but you are going about it all wrong.

It doesn't seem to matter HOW I say it Tood.

[Coco Pops]

Come back to Earth in 200 years and this nonsense will still be going on.......

Why not just give the Palestinians land of their own? I mean an act of the UN created Israel out of sympathy so why not the same for the Palestinians?

This bull**** war will continue forever

[Gatefan1976]

Takes deep, calming breath.

I have read plenty of history...esp as it pertains to the "religion" which carries the false moniker of "religion of peace"

Are you not Demonizing them right now?

Yes Christianity and Judaism also demand absolute belief. But when was the last time you saw a Jew or Christian holding a gun to your head saying you had to accept Judaism or Christianity or your brain would be made into Swiss cheese? Yet it's a regular occurrence amongst those who adhere to a religion which was founded on the basis of "conquer all infidels"

You are missing the point MG.
Let me try again.
The argument held by Christianity and Judaism is that "we don't do it" but the ACTUAL truth is, you SAY don't do it -ANYMORE-. You sweep away your own misdeeds with the brush of time and expect everyone else to ignore your past as well. Sorry, but I won't do it. The truth is, if you took the teachings and laws -as written in the 2 books of the Bible- and gave them to fanatical, unbalanced people, they could quite easily be just as bad as the same fanatical, unbalanced people who use the Hadith and the Qu'ran to justify their actions.
I don't fear Judaism, nor Christianity, nor Islam, I fear the actions of those who use these religions, and ANY religion to justify inhuman acts. As of -right now- in our history, I will AGREE with you and say that there are far more Islamic Extremists than Christian or Jewish ones, just don't expect me to ignore the rest of History OK?

your final comment says a lot about you....if I didn't know any better I'd say you were reading right out of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"....when you have no logical arguments left, demonize the opposition

I had to look him up......
Interesting comparison, now go back to your first comment in your response and tell me if you are not using the same playbook?

(in this case via nitpicking about the fact that in an informal setting my writing will be very informal, i.e., lax grammar and spelling)

You do understand that English and language are not merely Spelling and Grammar, Right? That's like saying Math is no more than Addition and Subtraction. I don't care about your grammar or spelling, we all make mistakes.

were I writing a doctoral thesis on this subject you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be taking great pains to make sure my spelling and grammar was as good as it could possibly be....nobody likes a grammar and spelling Nazi...for good reason

LOL, now I am a Nazi, well, that's a quick way to Demonize me I guess.
(See, I can take things out of context and put on my thin skin as well)

I could send you copies of the papers I had to write for the massage school for every class....very few, if any, spelling/grammar mistakes

Why would I care now if I did not care then? I care more about the content of what you write, rather than your spelling or grammar.
If I were an Grammar nazi, I guess I might, but I am not, my comment about using full stops was to stop you, from creating, meandering points that shift over time, and possibly get you to consider, that not using full stops, makes other people possibly misinterpret the -SQUIRREL-, point you are trying to make, or even loose the point you are trying to make in the first place, because you are trying to make one long point, that is possibly unrelated to the point you started with, so they are unsure about exactly what you are trying to say, you know like I could be talking about your lack of full stops now, or I may be commenting on your belief I am a nazi, or possibly you are talking about something else entirely now, I am just not sure if, in this morass of seemingly unrelated points, just what I am talking about at all, but I do know it must have been important, or at least some of it was, maybe.

[pookey]

Where did the squirrel come from, and is it looking for nuts?

[Gatefan1976]

if it is, it's in the right spot