Originally posted by Gatefan1976
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Originally posted by Falcon Horus View PostThat's a two-way street since the Jews seem hellbend on eradicating the Muslims... hence why there will never be a peaceful solution.
Kinda like Israel using rockets and drones and airstrikes -- not hiding behind human shiels, just hiding behind their technology. So, if their cause is so noble, why are they hiding behind their technology?
...considering no one has outright called it a war yet... just saying... it's still a conflict. However, yes in war all is fair (sadly).
Did you know that Jews used tunnels to escape the getto's? And to bring in necessary supplies?
Tunnels can be used for all sorts of things - Hamas obviously uses them mostly for bad things, hence why I agree they should be blocked or destroyed. However, it's only fair to open up the borders of the Gaza strip and allow trade, economy, exchange to take place which benefits everyone. Open borders still means, Hamas or anyone else with bad intentions can go about doing their thing, but you'd have border controls. A joint operation between Israel and Palestine... exchange knowledge, go forwards together. Much better than then annihilating one another (or one side).
But I guess that's not happening any time soon...
I wasn't alive during WWII, and seeings as how I live in an area which was occupied land, I might have thought differently then. The Germans were our occupiers, much like Israel is occupying -- they're not really occupying Gaza but keeping it locked off from the rest of the world - open air prison, so I can imagine we felt a little like the Palestinians back then. Do to them, what they do to us!
And I think there's a fairly good reason why using nuclear weapons has become a bit of a no-go since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was a succes, but clearly something shocked the world awake hard enough that it never wanted a repeat.
Did you know that the Germans in WWI leveled cities in Belgium cause we wouldn't let them pass to France? Three of them are called Martyr Cities now (Louvain, Aarschot, Dendermonde) -- burned down, civilians shot and killed. Remembrance celebrations are happening all august (Mozart's Requiem will be played in Leuven - my home town).
Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1947 - the US retaliated with strength. I saw an article recently that the last surviving crew member of the Enola Gay passed away. He defended the action of dropping the bomb but never wanted to see anything like it again. So, while at the one hand he's supporting the action, he's also judging it.
Hamas surely would love to annihilate every last Jew... I wonder how you would feel if a person (no matter what faith or race) would come in and tell you your land is no longer yours but theirs. Your rights are now void, and they're building a wall around that one bit of desert they leave you to live. No trade, no economy, no future.
And what's in Israel's charter?
I don't stand behind Hamas' way of dealing with things - I boycot Israel so I must be in favor of Hamas. That's it, right?
Well, you're wrong. I do not condone the actions of either, and actions must be taken to resolve the issue, but both parties are in the wrong when it comes to this conflict. So, I chose to stand with the innocents who die and suffer - on both sides.
Same goes for all the innocents in every conflict on this big, blue dot in a very big universe.
but unfortunately, where one group seeks total annihilation of or dominion of another, there will always be war/conflict
historically speaking though, every single war/conflict that has erupted between the Israelis and the Arabs (or on a religious level, Jews and Muslims) was initiated by the Arabs/Muslims...that begs the question of why is that? to me that's not the actions of a so-called "religion of peace"
Could Israel be doing things a little differently? Maybe or maybe not....but in assigning moral "blame" if you will, I'm more inclined to assign most, if not all, of the blame to those who adhere to a religion whose so-called "holy book" preaches nothing but absolute and undeniable hatred against those not of the faith espoused in said "holy book," as the Koran does (I've encountered various passages here and there of the Koran and from where I'm sitting there seems to be no shortage of verses spouting abject hatred and enslavement and even murder of those who refuse Islam)
You bring up the notion of "how would you feel if you'd been oppressed by a people?" implying that the reason many Muslims seem to want to wipe Israel off the map and stamp out every Jew (and Christian for that matter) is because they're being oppressed (an opinion for which I've seen very little, if any, defensible evidence btw)....that is no excuse for violating the universal principles of just war...by EITHER side
one of those principles is that neither side should INTENTIONALLY seek to harm non-combatants...so it thus remains to be seen whether Israel is INTENTIONALLY seeking to harm Palestinian non-combatants
and we could turn your "how would you feel if you're oppressed" comment around....how would you feel about a people whose "prophet" demanded that you go out into the world and conquer it by force of arms in the name of God (or Allah in this case)...as that is precisely what happened in time past...the Arabs (or whichever ones chose to follow Muhammed) at any rate, went out from the Arabian lands and ran roughshod over Jerusalem and other such "infidel" holy sites and conquered them, terrorizing the inhabitants of said holy sites with the whole "convert to Islam or die" spiel
I'd say you could probably reasonably expect those who were so victimized, once they've taken their land back, to put up some sanctions against said aggressors
....which then goes to P90's comment about borders being irrelevant.....if borders are irrelevant then I guess there's no moral standing to resist an aggressor is there?
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Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
They don't *want* her, and she doesn't want them over here, either.
But Putin was more popular (in the USA) than Obama before Russia's military might invaded Crimea, and then decided that wasn't enough, so they wanted the entire Ukraine, too.
Not sure what people in the USA think now, tho. If the Ukraine lets itself get absorbed without more fighting, there may be parts of the USA who might be considering, "hey -- just take us, too, Russia!"
No nukes, necessary in the process!
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Originally posted by mad_gater View Postand I guess that's the whole crux of the matter isn't it? we can all agree that "war is hell" as the old saying goes and no one person in their right mind would ever wish for a state of war/conflict between 2 nations I think
but unfortunately, where one group seeks total annihilation of or dominion of another, there will always be war/conflict
historically speaking though, every single war/conflict that has erupted between the Israelis and the Arabs (or on a religious level, Jews and Muslims) was initiated by the Arabs/Muslims...that begs the question of why is that? to me that's not the actions of a so-called "religion of peace"
What you seem to forget oh so easily is that any deviation from your viewpoint does NOT equal sympathy for the other side. If I feel sympathy for the innocent victims of Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki (yes, I can name them without google, or just saying "them Jap or Kraut cities"), that does not mean I agree with either side.
I DO however reserve the right to say that the firestorms of Dresden were wrong, as were the Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is NO military evidence that supports the notion that any of these acts were anything more than retaliatory acts. By the time these 3 things were done, the "opposition" had already lost.
Could Israel be doing things a little differently? Maybe or maybe not....but in assigning moral "blame" if you will, I'm more inclined to assign most, if not all, of the blame to those who adhere to a religion whose so-called "holy book" preaches nothing but absolute and undeniable hatred against those not of the faith espoused in said "holy book," as the Koran does (I've encountered various passages here and there of the Koran and from where I'm sitting there seems to be no shortage of verses spouting abject hatred and enslavement and even murder of those who refuse Islam)
Know what?
ALL Monotheistic religions demand absolute belief, they ALL demand Absolute servitude, and that includes your OWN "holy book". Want to disagree?
Re-read your Deuteronomy, your Numbers, and then read Jesus' comments on how he was not put on the Earth to change the "law"
Just because you slapped on a fresh coat of "Buddy Christ" on some of your beliefs, and created an entire branch of Apologetics does not mean they are, as written, any less vile that those you seem to hold as "evil"
You bring up the notion of "how would you feel if you'd been oppressed by a people?"
implying that the reason many Muslims seem to want to wipe Israel off the map and stamp out every Jew (and Christian for that matter) is because they're being oppressed (an opinion for which I've seen very little, if any, defensible evidence btw)....that is no excuse for violating the universal principles of just war...by EITHER side
one of those principles is that neither side should INTENTIONALLY seek to harm non-combatants...so it thus remains to be seen whether Israel is INTENTIONALLY seeking to harm Palestinian non-combatants
Your parents are not even a damn issue here, they are just "meh, stuff it, Ooops"
and we could turn your "how would you feel if you're oppressed" comment around....how would you feel about a people whose "prophet" demanded that you go out into the world and conquer it by force of arms in the name of God (or Allah in this case)...as that is precisely what happened in time past...the Arabs (or whichever ones chose to follow Muhammed) at any rate, went out from the Arabian lands and ran roughshod over Jerusalem and other such "infidel" holy sites and conquered them, terrorizing the inhabitants of said holy sites with the whole "convert to Islam or die" spiel
Have you EVER picked up a history book??
I'd say you could probably reasonably expect those who were so victimized, once they've taken their land back, to put up some sanctions against said aggressors
....which then goes to P90's comment about borders being irrelevant.....if borders are irrelevant then I guess there's no moral standing to resist an aggressor is there?
Instead of a Massage school dude, try Remedial English, because if I took what you say literally, You make Palpatine seem like a saint.sigpicALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yetThe truth isn't the truth
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Just to make this clear.....
The above rant was NOT "anti-anyone" but Anti-extremism. I really don't care about your race, colour or creed, but I do care what they are used for sometimes.sigpicALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yetThe truth isn't the truth
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Originally posted by Falcon Horus View PostThat's a two-way street since the Jews seem hellbend on eradicating the Muslims... hence why there will never be a peaceful solution.
You see this is my problem. Why Jews? It's like saying if Italy invades Greece, the bad guys are Catholics. It's also why many people in Europe are advocating the annihilation and villainization of Jews, not Israelis. I've known a few Jews in my life and none of them seem to have any vendetta against anyone. So I frankly don't know what this is all about.
Kinda like Israel using rockets and drones and airstrikes -- not hiding behind human shiels, just hiding behind their technology. So, if their cause is so noble, why are they hiding behind their technology?
...considering no one has outright called it a war yet... just saying... it's still a conflict. However, yes in war all is fair (sadly).
Did you know that Jews used tunnels to escape the getto's? And to bring in necessary supplies?Tunnels can be used for all sorts of things - Hamas obviously uses them mostly for bad things, hence why I agree they should be blocked or destroyed. However, it's only fair to open up the borders of the Gaza strip and allow trade, economy, exchange to take place which benefits everyone. Open borders still means, Hamas or anyone else with bad intentions can go about doing their thing, but you'd have border controls. A joint operation between Israel and Palestine... exchange knowledge, go forwards together. Much better than then annihilating one another (or one side).
Same goes for all the innocents in every conflict on this big, blue dot in a very big universe.
Originally posted by P-90_177 View PostThere is in the end one very good reason why so many are standing up on behalf of the Palestinian people and crying out against the situation:
Israel has its military. Hamas has its rockets and its guerilla tactics. But the Palestinian people have no one. They're bombed by one side while being threatened and held hostage by the other. They don't even want to be there, but they're trapped, and they're are dying, either by Hamas or Israeli weapons.
I haven't read much anti-Hamas criticism in the Press at all. Nothing that would call out Hamas as much as Israel. It also doesn't help that the Palestinian government is inept and infiltrated by groups like Hamas.
Now in the end, most people understand the difficult situation that Israel is in. But the simple fact of the matter is, that this is not a situation like the two world wars where two massive powers were in a state of total war, where a civilian population is totally geared towards assisting the war effort. This is not even the likes of recent Civil Wars in the Middle East where civilian populations are taking up arms and are divided... This is simply one highly advanced mechanised military force fighting a war where the main body count is civilians... and those civilians want no part of either side.
Now, I have seen other arguments that have pointed out civilian body counts in the likes of Afghanistan and Iraq, and it is true that in any war Civilians pay a huge price, and maybe that is just the nature of war... but the thing is, it shouldn't be. And I think it's a stain on humanity in general that we do not pay more attention to tragedies such as this, and do not do more to help.
We are all humans. And as humans we have a duty to one another. Borders on a map don't matter.
Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View PostWhat if BOTH groups want the same thing?
Who said Extreme Islamists are a "peaceful group"?
What you seem to forget oh so easily is that any deviation from your viewpoint does NOT equal sympathy for the other side. If I feel sympathy for the innocent victims of Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki (yes, I can name them without google, or just saying "them Jap or Kraut cities"), that does not mean I agree with either side.
I DO however reserve the right to say that the firestorms of Dresden were wrong, as were the Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is NO military evidence that supports the notion that any of these acts were anything more than retaliatory acts. By the time these 3 things were done, the "opposition" had already lost.
Keep going, there are passages in the Hadith that allow lying to your non-Muslim allies to get yourself into a good position to betray them, and being rewarded for it.
Know what?
ALL Monotheistic religions demand absolute belief, they ALL demand Absolute servitude, and that includes your OWN "holy book". Want to disagree?
Re-read your Deuteronomy, your Numbers, and then read Jesus' comments on how he was not put on the Earth to change the "law"
Just because you slapped on a fresh coat of "Buddy Christ" on some of your beliefs, and created an entire branch of Apologetics does not mean they are, as written, any less vile that those you seem to hold as "evil"
FH brings it up because she knows, better than you or I who are playing Quarterback Tacticians, what it feels like to have her homeland bombed and destroyed. Unless YOU had family in Hawaii when it was bombed, or I had family in Darwin (which I did not), we are merely working off our "feelings"
Define "Just War"
It's not that think Israel is "intentionally" harming innocent people, they are not. What gets people like me is that they seem to not give a crap if they do. If I bombed your house, because your brother shot at me, and I missed your bro because he was out, but I killed your Mum and Dad and MY response was "meh, I was aiming for your brother, what a waste of a missile" How would YOU feel?
Your parents are not even a damn issue here, they are just "meh, stuff it, Ooops"
Yeah, cause that never came back on the Arabs, did it........
Have you EVER picked up a history book??
WTF???
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Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View PostWhat if BOTH groups want the same thing?
Who said Extreme Islamists are a "peaceful group"?
What you seem to forget oh so easily is that any deviation from your viewpoint does NOT equal sympathy for the other side. If I feel sympathy for the innocent victims of Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki (yes, I can name them without google, or just saying "them Jap or Kraut cities"), that does not mean I agree with either side.
I DO however reserve the right to say that the firestorms of Dresden were wrong, as were the Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is NO military evidence that supports the notion that any of these acts were anything more than retaliatory acts. By the time these 3 things were done, the "opposition" had already lost.
Keep going, there are passages in the Hadith that allow lying to your non-Muslim allies to get yourself into a good position to betray them, and being rewarded for it.
Know what?
ALL Monotheistic religions demand absolute belief, they ALL demand Absolute servitude, and that includes your OWN "holy book". Want to disagree?
Re-read your Deuteronomy, your Numbers, and then read Jesus' comments on how he was not put on the Earth to change the "law"
Just because you slapped on a fresh coat of "Buddy Christ" on some of your beliefs, and created an entire branch of Apologetics does not mean they are, as written, any less vile that those you seem to hold as "evil"
FH brings it up because she knows, better than you or I who are playing Quarterback Tacticians, what it feels like to have her homeland bombed and destroyed. Unless YOU had family in Hawaii when it was bombed, or I had family in Darwin (which I did not), we are merely working off our "feelings"
Define "Just War"
It's not that think Israel is "intentionally" harming innocent people, they are not. What gets people like me is that they seem to not give a crap if they do. If I bombed your house, because your brother shot at me, and I missed your bro because he was out, but I killed your Mum and Dad and MY response was "meh, I was aiming for your brother, what a waste of a missile" How would YOU feel?
Your parents are not even a damn issue here, they are just "meh, stuff it, Ooops"
Yeah, cause that never came back on the Arabs, did it........
Have you EVER picked up a history book??
WTF???
Can I have the number of your supplier, cause whoever they are, they have some good gear going on.
Instead of a Massage school dude, try Remedial English, because if I took what you say literally, You make Palpatine seem like a saint.
Yes Christianity and Judaism also demand absolute belief. But when was the last time you saw a Jew or Christian holding a gun to your head saying you had to accept Judaism or Christianity or your brain would be made into Swiss cheese? Yet it's a regular occurrence amongst those who adhere to a religion which was founded on the basis of "conquer all infidels"
your final comment says a lot about you....if I didn't know any better I'd say you were reading right out of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"....when you have no logical arguments left, demonize the opposition (in this case via nitpicking about the fact that in an informal setting my writing will be very informal, i.e., lax grammar and spelling)
were I writing a doctoral thesis on this subject you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be taking great pains to make sure my spelling and grammar was as good as it could possibly be....nobody likes a grammar and spelling Nazi...for good reason
I could send you copies of the papers I had to write for the massage school for every class....very few, if any, spelling/grammar mistakes
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Originally posted by SoulReaver View Posttyranny: "STFU"
democracy: "keep talking"
Democracy: Those people are just racist, violent, criminals and inbred pigs. We should shoot them before they do something to harm society and tell all our children how evil those people are.
sigpic
Stargate spin off series: Stargate Millennium
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/5580179/StargateMillennium
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Missed our royal highness and the president of Germany by a hair's breath this afternoon at the remembrance ceremony - 4th of August, the day Germany decided to hike through Belgium to get to France. They met with some unexpected resistance. Felt a bit peeved I missed it.
Saw the news report of the one in Luik, where Prince William and Kate were attending. Some interesting speeches were being said.Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1
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Originally posted by aretood2I know what you are trying to say, but you are going about it all wrong.sigpicALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yetThe truth isn't the truth
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Come back to Earth in 200 years and this nonsense will still be going on.......
Why not just give the Palestinians land of their own? I mean an act of the UN created Israel out of sympathy so why not the same for the Palestinians?
This bull**** war will continue foreverGo home aliens, go home!!!!
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Takes deep, calming breath.
Originally posted by mad_gater View PostI have read plenty of history...esp as it pertains to the "religion" which carries the false moniker of "religion of peace"
Yes Christianity and Judaism also demand absolute belief. But when was the last time you saw a Jew or Christian holding a gun to your head saying you had to accept Judaism or Christianity or your brain would be made into Swiss cheese? Yet it's a regular occurrence amongst those who adhere to a religion which was founded on the basis of "conquer all infidels"
Let me try again.
The argument held by Christianity and Judaism is that "we don't do it" but the ACTUAL truth is, you SAY don't do it -ANYMORE-. You sweep away your own misdeeds with the brush of time and expect everyone else to ignore your past as well. Sorry, but I won't do it. The truth is, if you took the teachings and laws -as written in the 2 books of the Bible- and gave them to fanatical, unbalanced people, they could quite easily be just as bad as the same fanatical, unbalanced people who use the Hadith and the Qu'ran to justify their actions.
I don't fear Judaism, nor Christianity, nor Islam, I fear the actions of those who use these religions, and ANY religion to justify inhuman acts. As of -right now- in our history, I will AGREE with you and say that there are far more Islamic Extremists than Christian or Jewish ones, just don't expect me to ignore the rest of History OK?
your final comment says a lot about you....if I didn't know any better I'd say you were reading right out of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"....when you have no logical arguments left, demonize the opposition
Interesting comparison, now go back to your first comment in your response and tell me if you are not using the same playbook?
(in this case via nitpicking about the fact that in an informal setting my writing will be very informal, i.e., lax grammar and spelling)
were I writing a doctoral thesis on this subject you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be taking great pains to make sure my spelling and grammar was as good as it could possibly be....nobody likes a grammar and spelling Nazi...for good reason
(See, I can take things out of context and put on my thin skin as well)
I could send you copies of the papers I had to write for the massage school for every class....very few, if any, spelling/grammar mistakes
If I were an Grammar nazi, I guess I might, but I am not, my comment about using full stops was to stop you, from creating, meandering points that shift over time, and possibly get you to consider, that not using full stops, makes other people possibly misinterpret the -SQUIRREL-, point you are trying to make, or even loose the point you are trying to make in the first place, because you are trying to make one long point, that is possibly unrelated to the point you started with, so they are unsure about exactly what you are trying to say, you know like I could be talking about your lack of full stops now, or I may be commenting on your belief I am a nazi, or possibly you are talking about something else entirely now, I am just not sure if, in this morass of seemingly unrelated points, just what I am talking about at all, but I do know it must have been important, or at least some of it was, maybe.sigpicALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yetThe truth isn't the truth
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