The Political Discussion Thread

[Goose]

I am sort of divided on the issue, normally when something like this happens I think that is when we need to have the talk on tighter gun control laws before it happens again, but this one was just so horrible and I dont really know what to do.

Absolutely we need to have this discussion. But it's probably best to wait a day or two, just to get a better picture of what happened.

[Seastallion]

It's a little something called the "internet". And on this magical little thing, I found this.

Also, I lived for four years in a town in the United States where the sale of alcohol was banned. But you know, I'm foreign, so what would I know...

Well, I lived in NC in one of those 'yellow' spots, and there was no problem with anyone getting alcohol there. So while there might be restrictions on certain hours to be able to purchase it (between 2 am - 7 am), outside of that, there is no problem. The tiny bit of red isn't really an obstacle either. They might have to travel a little further to get their alcohol, but they can still get it. People in N.C. travel to S.C. to get fireworks all the time, so it isn't an obstacle, just an inconvenience at most.

[SoulReaver]

normally when something like this happens I think that is when we need to have the talk

kinda like what happened after 9/11 when both camps agreed to ratify Patriot Act & what not
kinda like what always tends to happen when legislating in the wake of some disaster
almost like a will to add to the toll. lol

[Seastallion]

In this thread http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/8...1#post13609917 people are talking about not politicizing it. I am sort of divided on the issue, normally when something like this happens I think that is when we need to have the talk on tighter gun control laws before it happens again, but this one was just so horrible and I dont really know what to do.

For the record, I actually live in the same county as Newtown. I like about 44 min away. It is so strange to have something like this happen so close. It is unreal.

It would be nice to not have the gun control debate pop up every time a tragedy occurs. I know that at my High School we had an armed Police officer that stayed at the school full time. He even had a daughter that went there. All the students knew him, and liked him. His name was Officer Powell. He was considered to be a quasi part of the school staff (even though he was an actual member of the town's Police force), and he participated in a lot of the school functions. He was a regular sight during lunch time, and other large gatherings. He was there all day, every day to protect the students, but he also coordinated with police officers when ever there were incidents of violence or whatever.

[SoulReaver]

it's fascinating actually. almost 30 kids got offed, and the only talk right now is either about reinstating the death penalty (Connecticut is one of the few civilized states there in that it abolished it) or confiscating guns. americans of both camps seem to have this fascination with giving authorities more power over the People one way or another, whenever there's a chance
is there seriously no such thing as a true libertarian party in this country?

(Ron Paul might have qualified as a libertarian if not for his stance on women's rights)

[DigiFluid]

It's a sad <mod snip> state of affairs when gun violence has become so prevalent that people don't bat an eye at metal detectors or full-time police coverage at schools.

[SoulReaver]

metal detectors

now there's a simple yet effective idea that would satisfy both camps

dunno how expensive these things are though, apparently saving money is more important than saving lives nowadays

I know that at my High School we had an armed Police officer that stayed at the school full time. He even had a daughter that went there.

public or private police?

[Seastallion]

My brother is a Libertarian and according to him I sound more like a Libertarian than anything else. I certainly lean 'right' in the political spectrum but I'm relatively socially moderate. As an example, I don't have a problem with Homosexual Civil Unions. I could care less. If they want to bind their lives legally, I say let them go for it. Doesn't bother me. My main thing is that the country needs to adhere to its Constitutional principles, and fiscal responsibility. If by 'women's rights' your referring to Abortion, like I've said before, it should be safe, legal, and RARE. Part of having freedom is also having responsibility for ones actions.

[chrono trigger]

It's a sad f-ing state of affairs when gun violence has become so prevalent that people don't bat an eye at metal detectors or full-time police coverage at schools.

Agreed i think the much more obvious soloution is to make owning a gun in the usa much more difficult.

[Seastallion]

public or private police?

I already answered this. He was a member of the town's police force, so obviously public. He wore the town's police uniform and everything. During lunch time, he sometimes ate with the faculty and sometimes he ate with the students. He made himself available to everyone. I had some pleasant conversations with him. He was usually involved if there were fights, or during drug issues and stuff like that.

[SoulReaver]

My brother is a Libertarian and according to him I sound more like a Libertarian than anything else. I certainly lean 'right' in the political spectrum but I'm relatively socially moderate. As an example, I don't have a problem with Homosexual Civil Unions. I could care less. If they want to bind their lives legally, I say let them go for it. Doesn't bother me. My main thing is that the country needs to adhere to its Constitutional principles, and fiscal responsibility.

what about capital punishment?

If by 'women's rights' your referring to Abortion, like I've said before, it should be safe, legal, and RARE. Part of having freedom is also having responsibility for ones actions.

there's a difference between being pro-choice & pro-abortion. only one of the two is rational, the other is what the Chinese opted for

Ron Paul wants to leave the issue wholly to the States (that's what he claims - he flat out contradicts this at times). this wouldn't change much, either way the People lose whether it is to Federal or State authorities

'legal' is what the whole abortion debate is about since it involves legislating thereon

'safe' they should be, check out "back-alley abortions" - these are as unsafe as it gets yet quite common in those countries with more primitive laws such as Chile & El Salvador

I already answered this. He was a member of the town's police force, so obviously public.

k

I'd much rather it be a citizen ie. a private guard
(this is implemented is several schools in the US, iirc)

[Seastallion]

Agreed i think the much more obvious soloution is to make owning a gun in the usa much more difficult.

Yes, because making people into victims solves so many problems. I wonder what my dad would do if he had to go out on his farm without his gun? Especially when the wild dogs are around that don't fear humans. The police can't be everywhere, so it doesn't really help to make it harder for people to protect themselves.

Gun Control.jpg

[Seastallion]

what about capital punishment?

So long as there has been a trial, and guilt is established without doubt (depending on the actual crime), then I don't have a problem with the death penalty. Quite frankly, there are a few people that are better off not being a burden on society, since their crimes are so heinous and their guilt far beyond doubt, and there chances of ever getting out of prison are ZERO. I don't think the death penalty should ever be taken lightly, but it is a valid punishment.

there's a difference between being pro-choice & pro-abortion. only one of the two is rational, the other is what the Chinese opted for

Ron Paul wants to leave the issue wholly to the States - or that's what he claims (he flat out contradicts this at times). not that this would change much, either way the People lose, whether it's to Federal or State authorities

The difference between 'Pro-Choice or Abortion' is blurred when those making Choice arguments start talking about how great an option it is. I believe the option should be there, but I also make dang sure that people understand it is a hateful option generally. It isn't something that people should act like is no big deal, because it is. It ends an innocent life. That distinction (between choice and pro-abortion) is also blurred when Choice people try to dehumanize the unborn to make the idea more acceptable. There are some who say they are pro Choice, but they make pro Abortion arguments.

'legal' is what the whole abortion debate is about since it involves legislating thereon

'safe' they should be, check out "back-alley abortions" - these are as unsafe as they're quite common in those countries with more primitive laws such as Chile & El Salvador

Well, the legality of abortion isn't going anywhere in the U.S. So it is a moot argument at this point. There is no danger of it suddenly becoming illegal again.

I'd much rather it be a citizen ie. a private guard
(this is implemented is several schools in the US, iirc)

A private guard is fine. I don't think it matters so long as there is someone there to keep an eye out for the safety of the students and teachers. I can't complain about Officer Powell. He was a great guy, and I felt he did a great job being there for the students.

[SoulReaver]

So long as there has been a trial, and guilt is established without doubt (depending on the actual crime), then I don't have a problem with the death penalty. Quite frankly, there are a few people that are better off not being a burden on society, since their crimes are so heinous and their guilt far beyond doubt, and there chances of ever getting out of prison are ZERO. I don't think the death penalty should ever be taken lightly, but it is a valid punishment.

k
as a libertarian I'm opposed to it without exceptions (though in cases where guilt is established with 100% certainty (1 in a zillion?), and for particularly heinous crimes, I wouldn't go out of my way to save the killer's life)

but I also make dang sure that people understand it is a hateful option generally. It isn't something that people should act like is no big deal, because it is. It ends an innocent life. That distinction (between choice and pro-abortion) is also blurred when Choice people try to dehumanize the unborn

yeah well much as I differ this would lead to an entirely new topic (which belongs more to the religious thread btw). I just cited Ron Paul because he's the one perceived by his supporters as the most "libertarian" of the lot & I differ with that


btw you catholic or protestant?

Well, the legality of abortion isn't going anywhere in the U.S. So it is a moot argument at this point. There is no danger of it suddenly becoming illegal again.

if memory serves, not so long ago South Dakota planned to make it almost completely illegal (even health reasons & rape & what not) but a popular initiative/referendum thwarted this

A private guard is fine. I don't think it matters so long as there is someone there to keep an eye out for the safety of the students and teachers. I can't complain about Officer Powell. He was a great guy, and I felt he did a great job being there for the students.

I favour a private guard because it's a much more logical option tbh (the same reason I'd rather have armed & trained pilots than a G-man on the plane)

although I'll reiterate what Digi said about metal detectors, you know, prevention being better than cure etc.

[Seastallion]

k
as a libertarian I'm opposed to it without exceptions (though in cases where guilt is established with 100% certainty (1 in a zillion?), and for particularly heinous crimes, I wouldn't go out of my way to save the killer's life)

You have to admit, you're being a little wishy-washy here. So you would be fine with on scene death by cop if the crime is bad enough? But not the death penalty after a trial to determine guilt? Sounds like your saying you'd be fine with Judge Dredd crime scene executions. Death Penalty (like abortions) should be rare, but they ARE a valid punishment, so long as the proper steps have been taken. Granted, DNA testing has helped to make such trials more accurate, but there are cases where DNA testing would be irrelevant, since guilt is a completely forgone conclusion. The guy that shot up the theater in Colorado would be a good example. Yes, he still needs a trial, but I think he'd be a candidate for the death penalty. His odds of ever getting out of prison are VERY minimal.

yeah well much as I differ this would lead to an entirely new topic (which belongs more to the religious thread btw). I just cited Ron Paul because he's the one perceived by his supporters as the most "libertarian" of the lot & I differ with that


btw you catholic or protestant?

I dunno... scientist seem to think they know what 'life' is. That is pretty secular. I'm not currently a practicing Christian, but I suppose I'd fall under Protestant if I were. I'm a Monopantheist. It isn't really a religion, just a spiritual notion.

http://academic.wsc.edu/mathsci/hammer_m/life.htm

1) Chemical Uniqueness. Fertilized eggs possess their own unique DNA
from conception.
2) Complexity and hierarchical organization. Hickman, Roberts, and
Larson (1997) explain that the most basic unit in the biological
hierarchy is the cell. The cell holds the properties of living organisms,
and cells can be manipulated in the laboratory and can be reproduced,
whereas nonliving elements cannot. Therefore, the fertilized egg would
meet this criteria, although it would be a more basic unit of the
biological hierarchy.
3) Reproduction. Francis Beckwith (1994) observes that the zygote
possesses two different methods of reproduction: cell reproduction and
twinning. According to Beckwith (1994), twinning is "a form of asexual
reproduction, which can occur after conception."
4) Possession of a genetic program. Francis Beckwith (1994) confirms
that from conception, the fertilized egg has "its own unique genetic
code." The 46 chromosomes present at conception provide all of the
genetic information that will ever be needed.
5) Metabolism. Francis Beckwith (1994) confirms that from conception,
the fertilized egg meets the requirement of metabolism.
6) Development. Hickman, Roberts, and Larson (1997) state,
"Development describes the characteristic changes that an organism
undergoes from its origin (usually the fertilization of the egg by sperm)
to its final adult form." Thus, although the fertilized egg will take on
different forms throughout its life cycle, the development of life begins
at conception.
7) Environmental interaction. The entity in the womb interacts with its
environment in many ways. Kicking and jumping are both examples.
In addition, research has shown that the fetus can be soothed by music
and can recognize the voice of its mother.


The fertilized egg, from the moment of conception, meets each of the properties that have been found to determine if an organism can be classified as living. Based on this definition, life begins at conception.

if memory serves, not so long ago South Dakota planned to make it almost completely illegal (even health reasons & rape & what not) but an initiative/referendum thwarted this

A referendum would be voted on by the people. So again, the sudden illegalization of abortion is a moot point. Not going to happen.

I favour a private guard because it's a much more logical option tbh (the same reason I'd rather have the pilots armed - and trained - than a G-man on the plane)

although I'll reiterate what Digi said about metal detectors, you know, prevention being better than cure etc.

I'm not too particular about the public or private thing. Although Metal Detectors would be pretty expensive. I think they'd be fine for inner city schools, but I don't think it is very practical for schools in small towns and such.