The Political Discussion Thread

[SeaBee]

It horrified me that those innocent children were murdered in a place where they should have been safe, and my thoughts are with the families.

As an outsider, I have been following the discussion on US gun control with interest. Here in the UK a ban on handguns was introduced a few years ago. It upset a few people and made things difficult for sport shooters, but was accepted as a good thing on the whole. However, we have never had the acceptance of guns that the US population has had since the constitution was written. I personally do not believe that the US government will ever be in a position where it can institute a ban on the keeping of handguns.

It is estimated that there are around 90 legally held firearms per 100 people in the US, the majority being handguns, whereas the UK average is 828 per 100 000 people, mostly shotguns.

With the average cost of a handgun being around $500 it would probably cost in excess of a billion dollars for a "buyback" scheme.

The American arms industry is huge, employing thousands of people nationally and generating Billions for the US economy. The loss of tax revenue and the increase in welfare would also have to be taken into account.

The introduction of tighter controls on who can have a gun would certainly have some effect but would be unlikely to stop the kind of tragic attack that occurred in Connecticut yesterday. From what I understand, the gunman used weapons that were owned by his mother. If a madman wants to kill somebody he will find a way, no matter how tight the laws seem to be.

[Seastallion]

That data is well over thirty years old!!

...and gun ownership is actually DOWN from then too...

So are you saying I'm old? I was born before 1979...

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Here are some interesting statistics I found...

http://www.gunblast.com/Gun_Facts.htm

FACT: The non-gun homicide rate for children in the U.S. is more than twice as high than other western countries.

Eight times as many children die from non-gun violent acts than from gun crimes.

* Kids and Guns, 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention



This indicates that the problem is violence, NOT guns !!

FACT: 82% of homicides to children age 13 and under were committed without a gun.

* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics



FACT: 0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation.

* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report



FACT: In 1996 there were only 21 accidental gun deaths for children under age 15. About twice as many children under 10 die from drowning in bathtubs.

* Centers for Disease Control



MYTH: 13 Children are killed each day by guns.

FACT: The statistics cited for this myth include "children" up to age 19 or age 24, depending on the source. Most violent crime is committed by males ages 16-24, so these numbers include adult gang members dying during criminal activity.

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1997



FACT: 18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law.

* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999



FACT: During the Clinton administration, federal prosecutions of gun-related crimes dropped more than 44%.

* Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse Univ. 1992-1998



FACT: There are more than 22,000 gun laws at the city, county, state, and federal level.

* BATF estimate, 1992

If gun control worked, then we should be free of crime.

FACT: There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.



FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.

* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms



FACT: Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime).

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994



FACT: Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.

* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994



FACT: The national five day waiting period under the Brady Bill had no impact on murder or robbery, but slightly increased rape and aggravated assault rates by a few percent. For these two crime categories, the major effect was to delay law-abiding citizens from getting a gun for protection. The risks were greatest for crimes against women.

* Dr. John Lott Jr., Univ. of Chicago School of Law



FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminals) is shed.

FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.



FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.

* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

This means that, each year, firearms are used 65 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.



FACT: Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.

* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,

Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979



MYTH: Concealed Carry Laws Increase Crime

FACT: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:

* Murder rates drop 8%

* Rape rates fall 5%

* Aggravated assaults drop 7%

More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right -to -carry laws.



TYPE OF CRIME HOW MUCH HIGHER IN RESTRICTIVE STATES (states without Concealed carry laws)

Violent Crime ……………………81% higher

Murder ………………………….. 86% higher

Rape …………………………… 25% higher

Assault…………………………… 82% higher

Robbery………………………….. 105% higher

Auto Theft……………………….. 60% higher

* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992. During this time, ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the U.S. would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults- and would have saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.

FACT: 92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes.

* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police



MYTH: Police are our protection, and people don't need guns.

FACT: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,

444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'



FACT: After Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibited handgun possession for self defense, the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate.

* Pat Mayhew, Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States,

Canada and England and Wales (Nat'l Inst. Of Just., Wash., D.C., 1987)

MYTH: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society.

FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.

* United Nations data


Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.

If this was directed towards my post, I am not saying that we need to get rid of all guns, in fact I said as much in my post, all I am saying is that we need better gun control laws and that prayer wouldnt have helped.

[Seastallion]

As an outsider, I have been following the discussion on US gun control with interest. Here in the UK a ban on handguns was introduced a few years ago. It upset a few people and made things difficult for sport shooters, but was accepted as a good thing on the whole. However, we have never had the acceptance of guns that the US population has had since the constitution was written. I personally do not believe that the US government will ever be in a position where it can institute a ban on the keeping of handguns.

It is estimated that there are around 90 legally held firearms per 100 people in the US, the majority being handguns, whereas the UK average is 828 per 100 000 people, mostly shotguns.

With the average cost of a handgun being around $500 it would probably cost in excess of a billion dollars for a "buyback" scheme.

The American arms industry is huge, employing thousands of people nationally and generating Billions for the US economy. The loss of tax revenue and the increase in welfare would also have to be taken into account.

Interestingly, the UK which has banned guns, also has a higher crime rate than the U.S.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ritain-US.html

Guns 2.jpg

[Seastallion]

If this was directed towards my post, I am not saying that we need to get rid of all guns, in fact I said as much in my post, all I am saying is that we need better gun control laws and that prayer wouldnt have helped.

It wasn't about you per se, just thought there ought to be a balance. The truth is statistics can easily be used to misrepresent the truth, so a lot of factors have to be taken into account. One could argue that water should be regulated as a dangerous weapon because so many people drown. It sounds ridiculous, because it is. There are already plenty of gun control laws in the books. Making more won't help. Enforcing the ones that already exist might actually help. In any case gun ownership is actually down from what it used to be.

[Goose]

...and gun ownership is actually DOWN from then too...

So are you saying I'm old? I was born before 1979...

Using thirty year old data isn't very reliable, since society has changed so very much since 1979. Crime statistics go up and down all the time, so what was true thirty years probably isn't true today.

Interestingly, the UK which has banned guns, also has a higher crime rate than the U.S.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ritain-US.html

[ATTACH=CONFIG]36382[/ATTACH]

If you'd properly read the article, it says that you're more likely to be the victim of any sort of crime in Britain. That can range from pick-pocketing to murder. Violent crime is much less common in the UK than it is in America. Last year there were 39 fatal shootings in Britain, for example. That's not even remotely close to what it was in the US.

[SeaBee]

Interestingly, the UK which has banned guns, also has a higher crime rate than the U.S.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ritain-US.html

[ATTACH=CONFIG]36382[/ATTACH]

Interesting report, but there are two problems with it.
Firstly, although it has today's date at the top it is actually several years old and is quoting data from 1999. Secondly, it was published by a Conservative supporting newspaper during a time when we had a Labour government. The Mail has had a long history of bending statistics to suit their own agendas. Notice that they left the stats for murder out of the report.

There were around 9000 fatal shootings in the US last year compared to 39 here. Taking into account the different populations of the two countries it equates to approximately 1 fatal shooting per 35 000 people for the US compared to 1 fatal shooting in 1 590 000 for the UK. This means you are 454 times more likely to be shot and killed in the US than in the UK.

That said, I don't believe that introducing more gun control legislation into the US will help. It is the attitude of the population as a whole that needs to change, not the laws.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

It wasn't about you per se, just thought there ought to be a balance. The truth is statistics can easily be used to misrepresent the truth, so a lot of factors have to be taken into account. One could argue that water should be regulated as a dangerous weapon because so many people drown. It sounds ridiculous, because it is. There are already plenty of gun control laws in the books. Making more won't help. Enforcing the ones that already exist might actually help. In any case gun ownership is actually down from what it used to be.

New ones, enforcing old ones, im cool with whatever as long ad something real gets done.

[Princess Awinita]

<snip as it was too long>

I do not want to get into a big argument here and get on probation over speaking my mind, but you have only two tiny things wrong with your argument here

1: Gun control WONT WORK, the reason it wont work is because the idiots and maniacs already have their weapons, the sane and calm people will join up and register theirs sure, but the idiots and maniacs wont, trust me, gun control wont do jack squat.

2: Prayer works, saying it wont or does not work is your thing, believe what you want. But trust me, -or hate me- prayer works. Prayer is a powerful tool, regardless of who prays what and where. It works. For all we k now had the kids prayed that morning, the guy could have only WOUNDED his mother at her home, then stopped off at Wendy's on the way to the school and got arrested there and nobody would have been killed.

3; {because it is on my mind right now} Saying I have to provide charts and data directly shows me that others are too lazy to do it themselves.

What Suse said is right, we're living in an age wherein kids have zero respect for even their own PARENTS muchless teachers or police. Because we've removed God from their lives, literally, we got him out of schools, out of government, out of hospitals, out of work places, we got him out of everything. And guess what happens. Something bad happens, for example, KATRINA HIT, and we're all going "God where are you ?!" and you think God is up there going "Make up your minds! You want me in or out ?" that is the way I feel about this whole thing, had the kids prayed before starting off the day at school, the shooter would never had shown up.

I'll stay out of this thread now because I do not want to get too passionate about this whole thing, what isi done is done and there is nothing that we can do about it now. other then pray for the familes of the victems. Or whatever it is you do for the familes of the deceased.

EDIT to add: Just a small note, I'm not saying any of this to be mean or abusive or the like. It may sound like that to some, but it is not my intent to sound or read as such in any way. I do not want bad blood between me or anyone in this thread even though we may disagree on things. All in all, you guys are great people.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I do not want to get into a big argument here and get on probation over speaking my mind, but you have only two tiny things wrong with your argument here

Don't start things that you don't want to finish. Don't say these offensive things and then expect no one to call you out on it.

1: Gun control WONT WORK, the reason it wont work is because the idiots and maniacs already have their weapons, the sane and calm people will join up and register theirs sure, but the idiots and maniacs wont, trust me, gun control wont do jack squat.

Will tighter gun control laws stop every person who shouldn't have a gun, get one? Of course not but it will stop some and some is better then none. I gave you a full list of people who went on shooting sprees and if we just dug a little deeper into who they were before hanging them a gun it would have saved lives.

2: Prayer works, saying it wont or does not work is your thing, believe what you want. But trust me, -or hate me- prayer works. Prayer is a powerful tool, regardless of who prays what and where. It works. For all we k now had the kids prayed that morning, the guy could have only WOUNDED his mother at her home, then stopped off at Wendy's on the way to the school and got arrested there and nobody would have been killed.

For all we know if he watched sponge bob in the morning, he wouldn't have done any of this! Yes you are right, for all we know SOMETHING different MAY have happened IF he did SOMETHING different but no one knows that. Playing the hypothetical game is fun but that is all it is, a game. You make Prayer sound like a magic spell from Harry Potter. It is so arrogant and offensive to say that these kids would have survived if they were just more like you, do what you do, believe the things you believe. And you know what? For all you know some of these kids might have prayed at home, at school, or while this horrible man was hunting them down.

3; {because it is on my mind right now} Saying I have to provide charts and data directly shows me that others are too lazy to do it themselves.

Not directed at me because I was not the guy who responded to that but you are equally if not more so for not providing a source your own data.

What Suse said is right, we're living in an age wherein kids have zero respect for even their own PARENTS muchless teachers or police. Because we've removed God from their lives, literally, we got him out of schools, out of government, out of hospitals, out of work places, we got him out of everything. And guess what happens. Something bad happens, for example, KATRINA HIT, and we're all going "God where are you ?!" and you think God is up there going "Make up your minds! You want me in or out ?" that is the way I feel about this whole thing, had the kids prayed before starting off the day at school, the shooter would never had shown up.

O_O Once again, this is the most insane, offensive, and disgusting thing I have ever seen written on this site. You arrogance is beyond my understanding. You sound like the Westboro Baptist Church, you are blaming tragedies on people not praying, you are blaming horrible acts on people not having the same set of beliefs that you do, it is as if you are saying "I told you so" with a smug smile. Let me make something clear to you, Bad things, horrible things like this shooting or hurricane Katrina do not happen because some of us choose to believe something different then you. The fact that you think forcing kids to believe and pray in the way you like would some them from this horrible event is the most disgusting, unamerican, and scary thing I have EVER seen on this or any other site dedicated to a TV show.

I'll stay out of this thread now because I do not want to get too passionate about this whole thing, what isi done is done and there is nothing that we can do about it now. other then pray for the familes of the victems. Or whatever it is you do for the familes of the deceased.

I would normally say that running away like that would be closed minded and akin to burying your head in the sand but you are a person who believes that we must indoctrinate school children from any background with your own religious beliefs or they die and you make no apology for it. You are someone who thinks that the freedom to choose a belief that is unlike yours caused countless people to die in hurricane Katrina and you say such things with arrogance and full belief that you are correct. It is better that you not stay to tell me about how you think even more tragedies are because we don't think as you do, how people die because you do believe as you do.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I didnt see your Edit before. Most likely because I was typing my response. I fully believe that you mean well but what you are saying is absolutely horrible.

Ill also add that despite what it may sound like, I have absolutely no problem with religion of any kind. I just dont think that ones belief and practices is what determines what crazies with guns do.

[Seastallion]

I think this is worth sharing... It is a Facebook post from an old High School friend of mine, who also happens to be a school principal now in North Carolina. For context, let me say a few things about him. He is a black gentleman, who also happened to vote for Obama. So, he is by no means a right wing ideologue. However, I've always found him to generally be an open minded fellow, respectful even of view points he disagrees with. I'd say he is politically moderate for the most part. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with him in nearly equal measure, but always with respect for each other.


"I know everyone's attention is focused on Newtown right now and I am not taking away from the horror of what happened because I am deeply emotional about it; but do you realize how many innocent kids are killed every day in many of our cities and towns everyday without any significant outcry? Increased gun control is not the answer to many of our ills. THE SECOND AMENDMENT EXISTS FOR A REASON! Legal gun ownership is already regulated and is not the real issue. Lack of parenting, breakdown of families, culture that promotes violence to young people (i.e. movies, video games) and lack of mental health supports are more important issues to look at."

-Lionel Kato

This coming from a moderate, though left leaning guy...

I "Liked" it on Facebook. I always enjoy being able to agree with him, because he really is a decent guy.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I think this is worth sharing... It is a Facebook post from an old High School friend of mine, who also happens to be a school principle now in North Carolina. For context, let me say a few things about him. He is a black gentleman, who also happened to vote for Obama. So, he is by no means a right wing ideologue. However, I've always found him to generally be an open minded fellow, respectful even of view points he disagrees with. I'd say he is politically moderate for the most part. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with him in nearly equal measure, but always with respect for each other.


"I know everyone's attention is focused on Newtown right now and I am not taking away from the horror of what happened because I am deeply emotional about it; but do you realize how many innocent kids are killed every day in many of our cities and towns everyday without any significant outcry? Increased gun control is not the answer to many of our ills. THE SECOND AMENDMENT EXISTS FOR A REASON! Legal gun ownership is already regulated and is not the real issue. Lack of parenting, breakdown of families, culture that promotes violence to young people (i.e. movies, video games) and lack of mental health supports are more important issues to look at."

-Lionel Kato

This coming from a moderate, though left leaning guy...

I "Liked" it on Facebook. I always enjoy being able to agree with him, because he really is a decent guy.

Well its nice that people can find common ground. I agree, there are horrible things that happen every day that for whatever reason dont make the news. I live 40 min away from Newtown, so this was going to hit my area hard no matter what.
I for one believe that he is right about things like mental heath, better parenting, and culture but I also think that tighter gun control laws, like ones that might look deeper into the background of psychos like this will also help.

[Goose]

I live in a country where prayer, and indeed all forms of religion, is expressly forbidden in school. We've had exactly no school shootings. Ever.

[Womble]

Guns can kill at faster rates, and depending on the bullet, injure more severely than a knife could.

Teenager Kills 8 in China Knife Attack

China children 'hacked to death' in new school attack- 7 children and 2 adults dead, 11 more children wounded. The article mentions another, earlier school knifing with 8 dead.

I dare say these death tolls leave your argument looking less than convincing.