The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

Do you really think that will happen? Granted, we have that one guy who runs a credit card processing co. in Washington state who is cutting his own salary to pay for everyone making 70K, but do you really see many following suit?
I don't.

although his own salary "cut" could likely be compensated by extra bonuses, his is still a commendable move
as for if others will take example (willingly), depends partially on how this plays out in that particular firm doesn't it

The only thing that might even temporarily mitigate this is if the vast majority of CEO's, stockholders, business owners and so forth in every business that is involved choose to eat the cost of the labor increase rather than pass it along in the form of prices. Even that will only slow things down, not stop it. But I don't think that is a reasonable expectation to begin with.

yes choose...or are made to choose ^_^

[Womble]

chances are the nurse is too busy to reflect upon this

I think everyone reflects on their pay. I mean, don't you?

anyway $15 was Annoyed's example for a figure

It's the raise being demanded.

incidentally will everybody else automatically demand a raise? when you compare the nurse & the ff worker do you take into account 'risk & harshness' factors or just total working hours & academic prerequisites? in the private sector only - where the shareholders & leaders' salaries can also be lowered - or in the public sector as well?

You really don't get it, do you?

You're straight out of school right now. You can go flip burgers at McDonalds for 15$ an hour, or you can pay considerable money for education and enter the job market four years later... for an extra 2$ an hour. Do the math and figure out how many years it will take for your investment in education to begin paying off.

Then ask yourself about the risk factors and level of responsibility that comes with both jobs. Working as an LPN means constantly being around contagious diseases and assorted biohazards. It means moving 300lb patients and cleaning their excrement. It means dealing with combative patients and equally combative family members. It means taking responsibility for people's lives and health, and a real risk of one day losing everything you've invested into being a health professional because of a single critical mistake. All that for an extra 2$ an hour. Between that and flipping burgers, what would you honestly prefer?

has any mcdonalds worker felt a calling to do this sort of job? '_'

People who choose their job because they "feel a calling" are a small minority. Most choose their job by how well it pays and how well suited they are to do it.

nb. tbh hospital personnel could do with a raise, firefighters also. wouldn't mind a tax increase if it's for such a cause

And the police. And a range of other professionals who make $15 an hour or slightly above that.

But do you at all realize that a tax increase would eat away the pay increase? One hand gives, the other takes.

[SoulReaver]

It's the raise being demanded.

like when demanding damages, to better their chances of getting at least something

You really don't get it, do you?

You're straight out of school right now. You can go flip burgers at McDonalds for 15$ an hour, or you can pay considerable money for education and enter the job market four years later... for an extra 2$ an hour. Do the math and figure out how many years it will take for your investment in education to begin paying off.

Then ask yourself about the risk factors and level of responsibility that comes with both jobs. Working as an LPN means constantly being around contagious diseases and assorted biohazards. It means moving 300lb patients and cleaning their excrement. It means dealing with combative patients and equally combative family members. It means taking responsibility for people's lives and health, and a real risk of one day losing everything you've invested into being a health professional because of a single critical mistake. All that for an extra 2$ an hour. Between that and flipping burgers, what would you honestly prefer?

And the police. And a range of other professionals who make $15 an hour or slightly above that.

...aaand if you noticed I said hospital personnel could do with a raise - you just happened to cite one of those jobs which do
fully disagree about the coppers (but maybe you were talking about those in Israel, dunno about their pay perks & powers there)

People who choose their job because they "feel a calling" are a small minority. Most choose their job by how well it pays and how well suited they are to do it.

but in this case only 1 of the 2 jobs has a "calling rate" of exactly 0 since it's, you know, a dead-end job

But do you at all realize that a tax increase would eat away the pay increase? One hand gives, the other takes.

and you do realize that's how govt employees are paid, give it to a thousand & take it from a million, do the math (taking into account a flat or progressive tax system)

[Annoyed]

although his own salary "cut" could likely be compensated by extra bonuses, his is still a commendable move
as for if others will take example (willingly), depends partially on how this plays out in that particular firm doesn't it

yes choose...or are made to choose ^_^

So, you want the government to dictate to business owners how they should run their businesses?
That might go over in a communist / socialist society, but it will never fly in a capitalist society such as the U.S.
And you will note that outside of the favored few in government or politically well connected, communist / socialist society don't work so well for most of their citizens.

I'm not a rich person. I get up in the morning and go to work, just like everyone does. But I understand and respect the basis for our free market, competitive economic system. You appear to favor another type of system.

[SoulReaver]

So, you want the government to dictate to business owners how they should run their businesses?

yes & no - depends on social context

cf. political compass : https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

[Annoyed]

That test is highly skewed in favor of the left. Some of the questions don't even make sense. So I'm not going to take its results seriously.
Nevertheless, it shows me as slightly right/libertarian. But nowhere near where I really am, which is far right, very libertarian.

For example, the very first question:
If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.

I don't accept that economic globalization is inevitable. It is not.

[Womble]

...aaand if you noticed I said hospital personnel could do with a raise - you just happened to cite one of those jobs which do
fully disagree about the coppers (but maybe you were talking about those in Israel, dunno about their pay perks & powers there)

Why? Police officers are people who perform a critically important social function and oftentimes risk their lives, dealing with the society's worst. An American police officer's starting salary (according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics) is $15.88. If one can flip burgers for same money, how fair is that?

but in this case only 1 of the 2 jobs has a "calling rate" of exactly 0 since it's, you know, a dead-end job

It's not a "dead-end" job unless one plans to flip burgers till retirement. It's a temporary job. It's a job for teens, students and people between jobs.

I've worked my share of such jobs when my original career plan crashed and burned, and I was never under illusion that I should have been paid as much as nurses or policemen. The nature of the job did not justify it.

and you do realize that's how govt employees are paid, give it to a thousand & take it from a million, do the math (taking into account a flat or progressive tax system)

Well yes, but I can't see the relevance to the part of my post to which you are supposedly replying. I think you've gone off on a random tangent here.

[SoulReaver]

That test is highly skewed in favor of the left.

I know - and those on the left say it's slanted to the right :|

I don't accept that economic globalization is inevitable. It is not.

interesting since globalization is usually seen as an epiphenomenon
what would you propose?

Why? Police officers are people who perform a critically important social function and oftentimes risk their lives, dealing with the society's worst. An American police officer's starting salary (according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics) is $15.88. If one can flip burgers for same money, how fair is that?

I agree it's unfair - for the burger flipper. "why" you ask this about the US seriously. lol
leaving aside the generous pay (and that average figure you gave was probably dragged down because city police get less pay than state or federal police), what about the perks? you're talking about a country where the commoner cant even afford decent healthcare, and when going to sleep don't even know if they'll still have their job in the morning (over there workers in the private sector can get fired at the slightest mistake, or even on a whim without having done anything wrong in case you didn't know)
coppers on the other hand have a very enviable healthcare insurance, are guaranteed a lifetime job and it's nigh impossible to get fired - even if they screw up mortally (I mean 'mortally' for the victim). in some cases they even get rewarded punished with 'paid administrative leave' (fancy american term for paid vacation. I bet a lot of commoners would like to be "punished" like this)

risks? commoners live by the day even more so than coppers do. when walking home they have both sides to worry about
1) they don't know if they'll cross paths with a mugger for instance. and forget about self defence, their vaunted 2nd amendment is becoming more of a joke. if you disable your mugger, even if he's armed & you ain't, the SS will still toss you in a cell like a common felon not to mention the mugger can sue you. plus criminals know they risk more killing a copper than killing a little taxpayer (civie lives are worth less, as per yankee law. unless you're part of another elite class like a business tycoon or something. I believe americans call that 'democracy')
the guys in blue on the other hand can shoot first even if the bloke raises his fist, they won't get sentenced – heck they don't even get indicted, since the DA is essentially their b*tch : D
2) they don't know if they'll cross paths with a copper on a power trip. after all over there if you've nothing to hide...you've still a lot to fear

and that's leaving aside all the other perks. being able to do pretty much what you want, not having to worry about traffic law (as long as you're on your own turf, it's extremely difficult to get fined), oh and I could mention the special privileges of vice squads in the US but I'm not sure the mods would be ok with this
add to this that in countries like the US as a copper you're pretty much treated like a walking demi-god by the citizenry (more so in conservative states)...not sure if that's funny or sad ^^


so lemme see...if I were in the US...choosing between sweating one's ass off flipping burgers in a 40°C setting & getting shouted at, and being a quasi deity with a badge & gun & a job for life & an array of unique privileges...choosing between a caste where you have mostly duties & few rights, and a caste where you have mostly rights & no duties (not to the citizenry anyway)...bummer that's a toughie...but I thing I'd go with the latter
heck I believe I'd choose that job over any other if I could (best choice is FBI of course)
et tu?

Well yes, but I can't see the relevance to the part of my post to which you are supposedly replying. I think you've gone off on a random tangent here.

nope, point is the part that gets eaten away will be negligible compared to the pay increase

[Annoyed]

I know - and those on the left say it's slanted to the right :|

Originally Posted by Annoyed
That test is highly skewed in favor of the left.

interesting since globalization is usually seen as an epiphenomenon
what would you propose?

I would propose that each government look after the interests of its own citizens, first, foremost and always.
Just as with local "metro" or "regionalization" schemes, globalization is a tool for one entity to get its hands into the wallets of it's neighbors who they see as better off than themselves. You can see this in many areas of the U.S.; a central city which has financially mismanaged itself to the point of bankruptcy or beyond and cannot afford to continue to pay for all the foolishness they've committed to over the years starts to talk about "Metro" schools, "Metro" police and consolidation of other government services with the surrounding towns. Of course, the central city always sees itself as maintaining control of the schools, police, or whatever service is being discussed, while they expect the surrounding towns, who do not need help because they haven't screwed up to pay for the cost of these services.
Cut the felgercarb away, and it is just an attempt to continue spending money they don't have foolishly while passing the bill to someone else. No thanks. You made your bed, now either bite the bullet and do what must be done to fix it, or live with it. Don't expect someone else to pay for it.

Globalization, as envisioned by the UN for example, is an extension of this. Almost every other scheme the U.N. comes up with involves the U.S. paying the lion's share of the bill while they control whatever it is.
No thanks. If you ask me, it's long past time where the U.S. tells the U.N. to take a flying leap, 12.1 miles due east, please, and withdraws all support and participation until such time as the U.N. ceases to look at the U.S. as something to be despised and hated except when it comes time to pay for the pie in the sky schemes they are pushing.

you're talking about a country where the commoner cant even afford decent healthcare, and when going to sleep don't even know if they'll still have their job in the morning (over there workers in the private sector can get fired at the slightest mistake, or even on a whim without having done anything wrong in case you didn't know)
coppers on the other hand have a very enviable healthcare insurance, are guaranteed a lifetime job and it's nigh impossible to get fired - even if they screw up mortally (I mean 'mortally' for the victim). in some cases they even get rewarded punished with 'paid administrative leave' (fancy american term for paid vacation. I bet a lot of commoners would like to be "punished" like this)

Ok, so you don't like that in the private sector workers are employed at the whim of the company. And in the private sector, aside from unionized industries, this is true.

But in the next breath, you're unhappy about workers whose unionization prevents them from being fired no matter how bad they frak up. (And this applies to almost all unionized government employees, by the way, not just police. Ever try to fire a bad teacher?)

And despite what the media in this country would have you believe, a "commoner" who has learned a skill that an employer can use can afford health care. I'm basically lower middle class in the US, definitely what you would consider to be a "commoner", and I have health insurance, and my employer pays about 75% of the cost for that. Yes, I have to show up for work every day and toe the line set by my employer. It's called working for a living, something that far too many people in this country have decided is beneath them.

1) they don't know if they'll cross paths with a mugger for instance. and forget about self defence, their vaunted 2nd amendment is becoming more of a joke. if you disable your mugger, even if he's armed & you ain't, the SS will still toss you in a cell like a common felon not to mention the mugger can sue you. plus criminals know they risk more killing a copper than killing a little taxpayer (civie lives are worth less, as per yankee law. unless you're part of another elite class like a business tycoon or something. I believe americans call that 'democracy')

You do have a point here. Our legal system has been corrupted to the point where it's quite possible for someone who has committed no wrong to be penalized via the civil court system. The O.J. Simpson fiasco from a few decades back is probably the best known example of this. He was found not guilty by the criminal justice system, but the civil courts were used to punish him when legally, he had committed no crime. I'm not discussing the verdict itself; there are different views on that. What I'm saying is that once cleared by the criminal courts, there should have been no justification whatsoever for any civil action at all.
But, lawyers make money off that kind of thing, and our legal system these days is run by and for the benefit of the lawyers, first and foremost.

In general, you seem to be advocating a system by which the world owes someone a comfortable living just for being born.
I'm saying that the world doesn't owe anybody anything aside from what they are able to earn by their own efforts. And if some entity makes foolish decisions, be it a person or a nation, don't expect everyone else to carry you along. Pick yourself up, learn from your mistakes, and take another shot at it. I've had to do that many times during my life, and I will probably have to do so again in the future.

One more comment about the police. Yes, it's certainly true that some officers (and entire agencies) abuse their authority. The attacks on 9/11 have been used by our government as an excuse to whittle away at our rights little by little ever since. And some police should not be cops. The former officer in South Carolina is a good example of this. Totally unjustified use of deadly force. And that officer has indeed been fired, and will stand trial. Probably spend the rest of his life in jail, if not the death penalty.

But the vast majority of police shootings are situations where the person who ended up getting shot challenged the police in what the officer perceived as a threat to his or her life, and in many cases, that perception was indeed the reality. But if you've been getting your information from our biased media, I can understand why you're only reading about the questionable situations; the legitimate use of force by a police officer is rarely newsworthy, even though it occurs far more often.

If you ask me, if I'm confronted by police, the only intelligent thing to do is "yes sir, no sir, where do you want it, sir?". Any improprieties can be addressed in the courts, later.

Charging at an officer, or attempting to take his sidearm is about the stupidest thing I could imagine, and I'm not surprised in the least when such stupidity results in a drastically shorter lifespan.

[Annoyed]

oh and I could mention the special privileges of vice squads in the US but I'm not sure the mods would be ok with this

I felt this was worth it's own response.

I'm a relative newcomer to this board, and I was surprised when I found a dedicated thread for political topics, and even more so when I found there was a religion thread as well. The mods apparently give free reign to whatever ideas are being expressed as long as everyone keeps a civil tongue in their head. This is a good thing.

But most impressively, everyone who is participating in these threads seems quite able to actually keep civil tongues in their heads. I have yet to see any sort of cheap shot, personal attack / insult or any other unacceptable behavior, despite different people having very different positions on various topics.

Aside from echo chamber boards, were everyone shares a common belief or group of beliefs, this is probably the first message board I've encountered in more than 20 years of using the Internet that can make that claim.

[SoulReaver]

Ok, so you don't like that in the private sector workers are employed at the whim of the company. And in the private sector, aside from unionized industries, this is true.

But in the next breath, you're unhappy about workers whose unionization prevents them from being fired no matter how bad they frak up. (And this applies to almost all unionized government employees, by the way, not just police. Ever try to fire a bad teacher?)

apples oranges etc.
one category of workers – comprising the majority of them (important, in a democracy) pays taxes & wields no power. and there's only that much their unions can do
the other category feeds off the taxes of the former category & wields considerable power. and their union has considerable influence
=> double standard much? I just find it amusing that those in the former category can get fired for nothing whilst those in the latter category don't get fired even for the most grievous mistakes

And despite what the media in this country would have you believe, a "commoner" who has learned a skill that an employer can use can afford health care. I'm basically lower middle class in the US, definitely what you would consider to be a "commoner", and I have health insurance, and my employer pays about 75% of the cost for that. Yes, I have to show up for work every day and toe the line set by my employer. It's called working for a living,

euphemism (make sure you don't trip on the line)
besides even the most servile demeanour is no guarantee you'll keep your job

other workers don't have such strictures & they have far better health insurance than you and guess what, you're the one paying it for them. sometimes they even use it fraudulently to acquire steroids & various drugs which they smuggle to make even more $. I suppose they're right to do so, if it pays

something that far too many people in this country have decided is beneath them.

it's understandable, what with the welcome bonuses & colossal severance pays they get even when they mess up (I believe you call it golden handshakes & parachute) . these people haven't just decided that working is beneath them, they also decided that workers are beneath them

Spoiler:

I assume you were talking about the CEOs & directors of very large corporations right?

In general, you seem to be advocating a system by which the world owes someone a comfortable living just for being born.

depends whom I'm debating this with – specifically if they're pro-life or pro-choice

The former officer in South Carolina is a good example of this. Totally unjustified use of deadly force. And that officer has indeed been fired, and will stand trial. Probably spend the rest of his life in jail, if not the death penalty.

death penalty for a copper. lol. good one
that'd be a first in the US. don't know the fine prints but coppers probably have some sort of immunity against such a sentence. perhaps "qualified immunity" as they call it
or maybe a judge who dares sentence him to death will likely find himself on the receiving end of some very efficient mafia-tactics from the police unions
best case scenario he'll be sentenced to death but will successfully appeal & overturn the verdict (a preordained outcome)
it'll be a miracle if he gets lifetime or even a long sentence. another copper only got 3 years for shooting a catholic schoolteacher as she was driving in the parking lot, even that's a miracle

quick recap: in the US if the victim's a copper then the law says the defendant gets aggravating circumstances, often capital punishment (check out the case of Cecil Clayton)
but here it's the opposite situation where the victim's a commoner so the defendant will benefit for mitigating circumstances

But the vast majority of police shootings are situations where the person who ended up getting shot challenged the police in what the officer perceived as a threat to his or her life, and in many cases, that perception was indeed the reality.

it was, it's just that the scope of definition for said "threat" is very broad when it comes to them

you try shooting someone who threatens you with their fists, then see what happens to you – you'll find that the notion of threat is much more restrictive when it concerns the commoner instead of the copper

But if you've been getting your information from our biased media,

I believe you have your fair share of anti-libertarian biased media too so it all balances out

If you ask me, if I'm confronted by police, the only intelligent thing to do is "yes sir, no sir, where do you want it, sir?".

they must feel quite a power trip
(no wonder that job's so coveted in that country)

careful though, sometimes it's the complying that gets you shot hehe...

Charging at an officer, or attempting to take his sidearm is about the stupidest thing I could imagine, and I'm not surprised in the least when such stupidity results in a drastically shorter lifespan.

you can also add not charging at the officer & not trying to take his sidearm to the list. and running away. and moving in a way they don't like. and not moving. etc.
in fact Walter Scott might've had a better chance at survival if he'd tried to grab the gun

man, life as a commoner over there really ain't easy. can almost sympathize with you folks
lol

[Annoyed]

And in other news...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/comcast-...-warner-cable/

I'm not in favor of gov. regulation in most situations, but this is an exception.
I'm rather pleased that this deal his been killed, due to anti-trust concerns.

Time Warner is no golden child, but they're way better than Comcast. I'm glad that Comcast won't be taking over the local TW operation.

[Coco Pops]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...ays-and-buses/

If this is true I can't see this ending very well with posters like this on public transport in any city let alone NYC.......

[Falcon Horus]

Hey there I wasn't arguing with you but rather agreeing with you and posting my own beliefs, views in regards to the neanderthals. BTW the trilogy by Robert Sawyer is good reading. He wrote three books about this set in modern world where we find another kind of Earth with modern tech savvy Neanderthals in a parallel universe...

No, not arguing. I just thought I got it wrong. Hence why I repeated what I wrote. I didn't get it wrong in my first post (went back to check).

BTW on eugenics I wonder if we are in a way already doing that with things like IVF?

IVF isn't sterilizing the population.

On our local news last night they ran a story about doctors finding even more ways to make sure that older women can get pregnant via IVF and also the ability to choose "good babies" as in weeding out defective embryos, which sounds an awful lot like eugenics to me.

Those are ethical matters. Kinda like what chinese scientists did ---> Chinese Researchers Modify Human Embryos in Study

Trying to change DNA in order to prevent illness, or lifethreatening defects, I don't think that's such a bad thing to want to try. However, as was proven by the scientists in the above article, we don't have the knowledge yet to safely change an embryos DNA in order to create the perfect human being.

I'm a relative newcomer to this board, and I was surprised when I found a dedicated thread for political topics, and even more so when I found there was a religion thread as well. The mods apparently give free reign to whatever ideas are being expressed as long as everyone keeps a civil tongue in their head. This is a good thing.

In the past, this thread has been shut down because of fighting going on. The religious thread especially has many incarnations, and had to be put to the cross on more than one occasion because of altercations between posters.

We've just become more familiar with the ignore-feature, I guess.

[Womble]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...ays-and-buses/

If this is true I can't see this ending very well with posters like this on public transport in any city let alone NYC.......

There's been worse posters on the NYC public transport.