The Political Discussion Thread

[Womble]

Obviously most of his post is bait, I won't deny that. The only thing I can agree with is secularism of the state,

Umm I can agree with that too. For me personally, as an Israeli citizen married to a non-Jewish woman, it's a very real pain point. It'll decide my vote in the next elections. The thing is, though, what is actually HIS beef with Israel's particular religion vs. state status? There are lots of countries out there which do not separate religion from state - every single Muslim country out there, and a fair few others - and he isn't frothing at the mouth at those.

which Benji clearly said Israel was pretty much for Jews alone.

As a nation-state, yes. And it makes perfect sense, except in other countries it is taken for granted that minorities should enjoy full personal rights but not necessarily national rights - and only for Israel it is somehow not okay. Imagine for a moment a suggestion to add a crescent moon to the German flag in order to represent their sizeable Turkish population - do they have a right to demand that?

[Chaka-Z0]

Umm I can agree with that too. For me personally, as an Israeli citizen married to a non-Jewish woman, it's a very real pain point. It'll decide my vote in the next elections. The thing is, though, what is actually HIS beef with Israel's particular religion vs. state status?

You need to lower your expectations towards MAGA's. They are irrational people, driven by fear and hatred for other nations, plain and simple.

There are lots of countries out there which do not separate religion from state - every single Muslim country out there, and a fair few others - and he isn't frothing at the mouth at those.

I agree, Israel is really not the one we must pick on, those countries you speak of are the worst of the bunch indeed. And I mean I'm not living there, I don't know the reality, I'm not under threat of terrorists rockets on a daily basis and perhaps it is understandable and justifiable that such policies must be enacted in order to preserve your society.

Islamic societies are horrible, it's an aberration of humanity. I have yet to hear about one instance of a country ruled by religion that ended up good. Tood had mentioned the massacre in Mienmar, Buddhists butchering Muslims minorities. It's not Islam, it's not Judaism, it's not Christianity, it's all of them.

As a nation-state, yes. And it makes perfect sense, except in other countries it is taken for granted that minorities should enjoy full personal rights but not necessarily national rights - and only for Israel it is somehow not okay. Imagine for a moment a suggestion to add a crescent moon to the German flag in order to represent their sizeable Turkish population - do they have a right to demand that?

Canada's flag doesn't have the Fleur de Lys, yet Québec is part of it all the same. We have our provincial flag that represents our nation though, I don't see why they couldn't do the same in Germany? We've had our lots of difficulties and tensions, separatists etc., yet we're living somewhat peacefully and in harmony even though we have two completely different cultures living together.

[SoulReaver]

Obviously most of his post is bait, I won't deny that. The only thing I can agree with is secularism of the state, which Benji clearly said Israel was pretty much for Jews alone.

ain't he supposed to be a hardcore atheist??

[magi877]

what is going on with this? caught it on the BBC sat radio

are the issues i heard elsewhere from another person about supposed, growing australian authoritarianism. i didn't believe it, i thought that australia was at worst nor worse than america when it comes to personal privacy and rights, freedom from unwarranted searches and govt seizures ,etc

and the new security laws there, the internet security (As in govt doing some frakery with the internet use monitoring/ cell ph monitoring ??), i thought that was the stuff of tv drama

what the hell is this about..i mean beyond the explanations given in the video if you know please
thanks

cracking down on public tv?

[Coco Pops]

what is going on with this? caught it on the BBC sat radio

are the issues i heard elsewhere from another person about supposed, growing australian authoritarianism. i didn't believe it, i thought that australia was at worst nor worse than america when it comes to personal privacy and rights, freedom from unwarranted searches and govt seizures ,etc

and the new security laws there, the internet security (As in govt doing some frakery with the internet use monitoring/ cell ph monitoring ??), i thought that was the stuff of tv drama

what the hell is this about..i mean beyond the explanations given in the video if you know please
thanks

cracking down on public tv?

Journalists in Australia leaked information that made the government and our SAS troops look bad. The government doesn't want this to be public knowledge that our troops committed possible war crimes like abusing unarmed civilians such as abusing them and in one case shooting an unarmed old man. This was while they ere overseas in Afghanistan.

There were two leaks. The government claim was that this stuff was supposed to be classified information and not open to the public.

[Womble]

Canada's flag doesn't have the Fleur de Lys, yet Québec is part of it all the same. We have our provincial flag that represents our nation though, I don't see why they couldn't do the same in Germany? We've had our lots of difficulties and tensions, separatists etc., yet we're living somewhat peacefully and in harmony even though we have two completely different cultures living together.

Any minority can get themselves a flag to reflect their identity. I'm talking about overriding the majority symbols, culture and generally divorcing the state identity from its title nation.

Also, Canada is not a correct comparison as it is a recently born (in historical terms) nation without centuries of history to rely on. Don't think in terms of 200 year old former British colonies. Think old Europe, India or China.

[Chaka-Z0]

Any minority can get themselves a flag to reflect their identity. I'm talking about overriding the majority symbols, culture and generally divorcing the state identity from its title nation.

Instead of saying that Israel is the nation of the Jews he could simply have said that Israel is the nation of... all Israelians? How do you think people would react if Trump was to say the USA is the land of the Christians only? This statement is not to preserve the majority symbols, this statement overrides the minority symbols. It doesn't take away anything from the Jews to say that Israel is the land of Israelians, but it takes away everything from other groups to say that it's the land of the Jews.

But I'm not going to look further into it, Benji clearly said that to galvanize his base and gain political capital. That's my conclusion.

Also, Canada is not a correct comparison as it is a recently born (in historical terms) nation without centuries of history to rely on. Don't think in terms of 200 year old former British colonies. Think old Europe, India or China.

200 years is quite the low figure, you forgot to consider native people lived there ever since humans migrated to America and I consider them Canadians just as much as I am, a white man. As far back as Vikings which made landfall in Canada. Why old Europe or India or China? Do you read a history book and say: hey those a**holes killed my people 2k years ago therefore I should hate them? History has to be studied to learn from our mistakes so we don't repeat them, yet you guys seem to do the opposite, read the past and stay in it.

Students eventually teach the masters, perhaps the mess that is this part of the globe (no offense) could use a couple lessons from Canada or Australia, which found a way to live in co-existence with its native population (to a certain degree) and a mix of different cultures of different origins without endless bickering among themselves?

[Gatefan1976]

I would look to Canada far more as an example of intergration of a native population than out here. We were STILL doing messed up things to the Aboriginals well towards the tail end of the 20th century, and still to a degree today.

[Chaka-Z0]

I would look to Canada far more as an example of intergration of a native population than out here. We were STILL doing messed up things to the Aboriginals well towards the tail end of the 20th century, and still to a degree today.

I'd say it's pretty much the same here, the previous Conservative administration pretty much threw all the initiatives towards those folks down the drain until the Liberals came into power. The Government started making amends in the early 2000s, with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (http://www.trc.ca/)

It is a work in progress but indigenous people are still living in reserves, alcoholism is still an issue, some reserves don't even have running water, unemployment, etc. But it's progress, I'll take it. I don't know much about Australia though.

[Annoyed]

Students eventually teach the masters, perhaps the mess that is this part of the globe (no offense) could use a couple lessons from Canada or Australia, which found a way to live in co-existence with its native population (to a certain degree) and a mix of different cultures of different origins without endless bickering among themselves?

I don't think you can compare the middle east with Canada, Australia or anyplace else on Earth because the middle east has so many religious overtones due to it being the geographical point of origin of so many of the world's religions.

As I've said before, I don't think you will ever see peace in that region as long as there is human life in the region precisely because of the religious significance of the region.

[Womble]

Instead of saying that Israel is the nation of the Jews he could simply have said that Israel is the nation of... all Israelians? How do you think people would react if Trump was to say the USA is the land of the Christians only? This statement is not to preserve the majority symbols, this statement overrides the minority symbols. It doesn't take away anything from the Jews to say that Israel is the land of Israelians, but it takes away everything from other groups to say that it's the land of the Jews.

You are still missing the point of it all, because you are still thinking of former British colonies.

But I'm not going to look further into it, Benji clearly said that to galvanize his base and gain political capital. That's my conclusion.

There's that.

200 years is quite the low figure, you forgot to consider native people lived there ever since humans migrated to America and I consider them Canadians just as much as I am, a white man. As far back as Vikings which made landfall in Canada. Why old Europe or India or China? Do you read a history book and say: hey those a**holes killed my people 2k years ago therefore I should hate them? History has to be studied to learn from our mistakes so we don't repeat them, yet you guys seem to do the opposite, read the past and stay in it.

Students eventually teach the masters, perhaps the mess that is this part of the globe (no offense) could use a couple lessons from Canada or Australia, which found a way to live in co-existence with its native population (to a certain degree) and a mix of different cultures of different origins without endless bickering among themselves?

I REALLY don't think that any good lessons can be learned from Canada or Astralia, where indigenous people were reduced to a tiny fraction of the population through genocide, forced assimilation and introduced diseases before being allowed - eventually - coexistence.

[Chaka-Z0]

You are still missing the point of it all, because you are still thinking of former British colonies.


There's that.


I REALLY don't think that any good lessons can be learned from Canada or Astralia, where indigenous people were reduced to a tiny fraction of the population through genocide, forced assimilation and introduced diseases before being allowed - eventually - coexistence.

You're making my point for me. Those atrocities were in the most part committed by the British Empire, not actual Canadians. If you feel like it here's an interesting piece on that, Lord Durham's report. Either way, we've put that behind us and are making amends now. I'd rather look forward than backwards.

I would defy you to find another country that has done as much as Canada (I don't know about Australia so let's leave that aside for now) is doing TODAY for the rights of its aboriginal people. I would also point out that Canada never had any civil war, we contributed a lot in Blue-Hats missions and humanitarian aids missions. We are regarded as one of the most peaceful nation of the world, it's a stereotype but there's also a reason why that is so.

Can you say the same? If you guys have been there for thousands of years and still are incapable of achieving an actual peaceful environment, perhaps it's justified to say that you could learn a thing or two from a nation that has done what you were unable to do in 200 years?

[Coco Pops]

I don't like the oberblown response Israel gives to attacks.
People fire rocks they respond with bullets or missiles. It's overkill.

[Womble]

You're making my point for me. Those atrocities were in the most part committed by the British Empire, not actual Canadians. If you feel like it here's an interesting piece on that, Lord Durham's report. Either way, we've put that behind us and are making amends now. I'd rather look forward than backwards.

So you've had the dirty work done before you became Canada. It was still done, wasn't it?

The unfortunate fact is that pretty much every single country enjoying a monolithic identity - and consequent stability and tolerance for non-threatening minorities - is enjoying the fruits of bloodshed from its past. If you had a native Canadian minority of, say, 25-30%, a minority which was assertive - or even irredentist and actively pushing for more than a regional autonomy - your country would not have had such a squeaky clean rep even without hostile neighbors pushing on your borders and pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into igniting internal disputes in your society.

I would defy you to find another country that has done as much as Canada (I don't know about Australia so let's leave that aside for now) is doing TODAY for the rights of its aboriginal people. I would also point out that Canada never had any civil war, we contributed a lot in Blue-Hats missions and humanitarian aids missions. We are regarded as one of the most peaceful nation of the world, it's a stereotype but there's also a reason why that is so.

The reason being geography and being a former British colony. You have it easy. You are spared even old Europe's diversity.

Can you say the same? If you guys have been there for thousands of years and still are incapable of achieving an actual peaceful environment, perhaps it's justified to say that you could learn a thing or two from a nation that has done what you were unable to do in 200 years?

Learn what? Should we have asked the British to cleanse the area before the state of Israel was founded? It would certainly make Israel more stable internally... well, except the British were too busy keeping Jewish immigrants in internment camps on Cyprus.

[Gatefan1976]

So you've had the dirty work done before you became Canada. It was still done, wasn't it?

The unfortunate fact is that pretty much every single country enjoying a monolithic identity - and consequent stability and tolerance for non-threatening minorities - is enjoying the fruits of bloodshed from its past. If you had a native Canadian minority of, say, 25-30%, a minority which was assertive - or even irredentist and actively pushing for more than a regional autonomy - your country would not have had such a squeaky clean rep even without hostile neighbors pushing on your borders and pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into igniting internal disputes in your society.

Can you expound upon this point, if possible?