The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

lol

when a hobo asks you for a dollar do you also tell them to take a loan instead?

But I'll guarantee you one thing. If he demands that I provide assistance, as these illegals do by sneaking in and getting benefits, he'll be utterly ignored.

proving once again nationalism's a pretext & the GOP doesn't give a flyingf about their own americans
(I never specified the hobo's an illegal)

[Annoyed]

proving once again nationalism's a pretext & the GOP doesn't give a flyingf about their own americans
(I never specified the hobo's an illegal)

I never assumed he was. I have no problem voluntarily providing help to some one. For Ex: We get medium-nasty snowstorms around here. So I have a snowblower and other implements of snow removal.

There's an older lady lives alone across the street. Her young's check on her often. But at times when we've gotten hit with heavy snow, I've cleared her driveway while doing my own; at least her kids with the little cars w/no 4WD can get in and out for her.

At times in the past (I rarely socialize anymore) I've given a sober-looking hobe a few bucks.

That is of my own free will.

In stark contrast to what is happening here. We have hoards of illegal immigrants marching up through Mexico, and once here, one way or another we are picking up the tab for them.

If someone walks up to me and demands that I give him a handout, I won't even respond to him.

[SoulReaver]

That is of my own free will.

likewise how about educating young women about birth control etc. instead of Government making a choice for them

consistency try it

If someone walks up to me and demands that I give him a handout, I won't even respond to him.

lol @ your choice of words (who said anything about making demands)

[Gatefan1976]

I never assumed he was. I have no problem voluntarily providing help to some one. For Ex: We get medium-nasty snowstorms around here. So I have a snowblower and other implements of snow removal.

There's an older lady lives alone across the street. Her young's check on her often. But at times when we've gotten hit with heavy snow, I've cleared her driveway while doing my own; at least her kids with the little cars w/no 4WD can get in and out for her.

At times in the past (I rarely socialize anymore) I've given a sober-looking hobe a few bucks.

That is of my own free will.

In stark contrast to what is happening here. We have hoards of illegal immigrants marching up through Mexico, and once here, one way or another we are picking up the tab for them.

If someone walks up to me and demands that I give him a handout, I won't even respond to him.

Then the core issue is not immigration, it's social services.
Why are you so focused on immigration when it is not the real issue?

[Annoyed]

Then the core issue is not immigration, it's social services.
Why are you so focused on immigration when it is not the real issue?

Because there is no justifiable reason on the face of the earth that US taxpayers should pick up the welfare tab for people who migrate here illegally. Or legally, for that matter. Let their home countries support them. We are not the world's welfare office.

Take a look at the percentages of illegals and immigrants that are on benefit programs one way or another and compare that to the percentage of the native population that is drawing welfare. And no, social security doesn't count, because the people drawing SS retirement paid into the system throughout their working lives. That can't be said of immigrants, legal or otherwise.

I have other issues with immigration; a big one being that they don't want to blend in to our society; they expect us to provide services in Spanish, rather than learning to speak English properly themselves.

[Annoyed]

likewise how about educating young women about birth control etc. instead of Government making a choice for them

I am a strong advocate of education in this matter. What is the most effective method of birth control known to mankind?
Keeping your pants on. That's also the cheapest form in existence.

But you pro-abortion types don't seem to want to teach that, do you. You always want someone else to pay for other methods that are not as effective.

If someone wants to have sex, they can pay for their own birth control. Why should anyone else pay for their party?

[Gatefan1976]

Because there is no justifiable reason on the face of the earth that US taxpayers should pick up the welfare tab for people who migrate here illegally. Or legally, for that matter. Let their home countries support them. We are not the world's welfare office.

No one is asking you to be, all the evil left is asking you to be is be INFORMED.
You want to introduce a point system like we have here, go for it. You want to stop illegals, go for it.
No one is denying that you have a illegal immigrant problem, they are arguing about how to deal with it.
Understand that, and you make a leap forwards.
What you also need to understand is that by using "pure current metrics" such as what you asked me to look into does not represent the impact of immigration. YES, on the books immigrants use more Social services, no argument, but they also provide more taxable income simply because they are a growing population while "native" Americans are not growing, in fact they are shrinking.
Countries are not a "slice" of time, they are a continuum.

Take a look at the percentages of illegals and immigrants that are on benefit programs one way or another and compare that to the percentage of the native population that is drawing welfare. And no, social security doesn't count, because the people drawing SS retirement paid into the system throughout their working lives. That can't be said of immigrants, legal or otherwise.

Do they pay tax?
State tax?
Federal tax?
The answer is YES, and the fed takes more, yet you don't want them to be represented.
Taxation without representation.
I think I know this dance.

I have other issues with immigration; a big one being that they don't want to blend in to our society; they expect us to provide services in Spanish, rather than learning to speak English properly themselves.

ROFLMFAO!!!
English properly?
Learn your own language yourself.

[Annoyed]

No one is asking you to be, all the evil left is asking you to be is be INFORMED.
You want to introduce a point system like we have here, go for it. You want to stop illegals, go for it.
No one is denying that you have a illegal immigrant problem, they are arguing about how to deal with it.
Understand that, and you make a leap forwards.

And I want to SOLVE the problem, not take advantage of it for political gain or to obtain cheap labor.

How do you solve the problem? Simple. Stop illegal immigration, by any means necessary. A barrier wall will go a long way towards doing that. No, it won't be 100%, we also have to address those who overstay visas, misuse laws and such.

That's the difference between what I want to see us do and what the Democrats and many Republicans want to do. I want to stop it, cold, and they want to continue along the way we are going or outright throw open the doors and let everyone in, because they either benefit from that setup as is, or hope to in the future. They don't WANT to solve the problem.

What you also need to understand is that by using "pure current metrics" such as what you asked me to look into does not represent the impact of immigration. YES, on the books immigrants use more Social services, no argument, but they also provide more taxable income simply because they are a growing population while "native" Americans are not growing, in fact they are shrinking.
Countries are not a "slice" of time, they are a continuum.

Do they pay tax?
State tax?
Federal tax?
The answer is YES, and the fed takes more, yet you don't want them to be represented.
Taxation without representation.
I think I know this dance.

Are they a net drain or a net gain?
And regarding taxation/representation. Are you advocating illegals get the right to vote?

ROFLMFAO!!!
English properly?
Learn your own language yourself.

Although I am no English major, in English, I can make myself understood by either the spoken word or written word. You don't seem to have any problem understanding what I say, even if you don't accept it or agree with it.

And I would never have the arrogance to move to a foreign nation where they speak French, German or whatever and ask that services be provided in English. It's my responsibility to learn to communicate in the language of where ever I'm going BEFORE going there.

[jelgate]

Do I get bacon for calling out Annoyed's factless repetitions

[Annoyed]

Do I get bacon for calling out Annoyed's factless repetitions

I can't help it if it doesn't sink in the first 3,576,002 times. NO BACON FOR YOU!

[jelgate]

You cant help making claims that lack or contradict facts?

[SoulReaver]

You cant help making claims that lack or contradict facts?

it's his King's MO: keep repeating something & it becomes truth
works wonders on weak minds

(the Dems could use this tactic too but they're afraid it could help them win)

[Gatefan1976]

And I want to SOLVE the problem, not take advantage of it for political gain or to obtain cheap labor.

Then discuss solutions. You put forward an option, and demand it is the only solution.
That's not a discussion, it's a demand.

How do you solve the problem? Simple. Stop illegal immigration, by any means necessary. A barrier wall will go a long way towards doing that. No, it won't be 100%, we also have to address those who overstay visas, misuse laws and such.

Congratulations, you have identified a problem, you have offered NO SOLUTION because you cannot do it by "any means necessary" because "any means" means nothing.
Old people are a problem, lets get rid of them by any means necessary.
I don't care if you paid into SS, I don't care if you were a taxpayer, they are a problem, let's fix it.
Offer a solution, not just another talking point.
Think about it, The right claims Obama care is an issue, they want to destroy it.
What is the solution?
Do they offer a fix?
Something better?
No, they offer nothing, just demand you accept that the current system is broken.
I offer having a discussion on the issue, and will even CONCEDE some of your points as fair and valid.
What will you concede?

That's the difference between what I want to see us do and what the Democrats and many Republicans want to do. I want to stop it, cold, and they want to continue along the way we are going or outright throw open the doors and let everyone in, because they either benefit from that setup as is, or hope to in the future. They don't WANT to solve the problem.

No, you are not listening.
I'll give you 50 million for something that will work, I won't give you 10 million for something that won't.
The left is not unwilling to work on immigration, they are unwilling to work on dumb idea's.
Discuss the issue.
Australian immigration laws are positively draconian, and I'm pretty fine with them. I am iffy on our "illegal immigrant laws" simply because they are broad based and stupid.

Are they a net drain or a net gain?

Depends on your view.
In the short term, they are a drain, in the long term, they are a plus. If you just want to look at NOW, immigrants hurt Americans, or what you consider Americans. In the long term, they provide something the native population does not, people, work, and tax stream.
So, from your POV, immigrants are bad.
From a macro-economic POV, immigrants are good, legal or illegal. You want to filter that system, go for broke. What I don't like is people being treated as inhuman just because they are not "American" or "Australian"
People are people,, no matter where they were born.
If you accept that X people do not matter, why should anyone accept you? You are just a number in that system, and you are far past your use by date.

And regarding taxation/representation. Are you advocating illegals get the right to vote?

Do you have the right to tax them?
They are just a drain on the economy and provide nothing, right?
Or do you need to understand that illegal's actually contribute to the economy, and it's a balancing act, or are you going to go on?


Although I am no English major, in English, I can make myself understood by either the spoken word or written word. You don't seem to have any problem understanding what I say, even if you don't accept it or agree with it.

And I would never have the arrogance to move to a foreign nation where they speak French, German or whatever and ask that services be provided in English. It's my responsibility to learn to communicate in the language of where ever I'm going BEFORE going there.[/QUOTE]

[Gatefan1976]

Then discuss solutions. You put forward an option, and demand it is the only solution.
That's not a discussion, it's a demand.

Congratulations, you have identified a problem, you have offered NO SOLUTION because you cannot do it by "any means necessary" because "any means" means nothing.
Old people are a problem, lets get rid of them by any means necessary.
I don't care if you paid into SS, I don't care if you were a taxpayer, they are a problem, let's fix it.
Offer a solution, not just another talking point.
Think about it, The right claims Obama care is an issue, they want to destroy it.
What is the solution?
Do they offer a fix?
Something better?
No, they offer nothing, just demand you accept that the current system is broken.
I offer having a discussion on the issue, and will even CONCEDE some of your points as fair and valid.
What will you concede?

No, you are not listening.
I'll give you 50 million for something that will work, I won't give you 10 million for something that won't.
The left is not unwilling to work on immigration, they are unwilling to work on dumb idea's.
Discuss the issue.
Australian immigration laws are positively draconian, and I'm pretty fine with them. I am iffy on our "illegal immigrant laws" simply because they are broad based and stupid.

Depends on your view.
In the short term, they are a drain, in the long term, they are a plus. If you just want to look at NOW, immigrants hurt Americans, or what you consider Americans. In the long term, they provide something the native population does not, people, work, and tax stream.
So, from your POV, immigrants are bad.
From a macro-economic POV, immigrants are good, legal or illegal. You want to filter that system, go for broke. What I don't like is people being treated as inhuman just because they are not "American" or "Australian"
People are people,, no matter where they were born.
If you accept that X people do not matter, why should anyone accept you? You are just a number in that system, and you are far past your use by date.

Do you have the right to tax them?
They are just a drain on the economy and provide nothing, right?
Or do you need to understand that illegal's actually contribute to the economy, and it's a balancing act, or are you going to go on?

Although I am no English major, in English, I can make myself understood by either the spoken word or written word. You don't seem to have any problem understanding what I say, even if you don't accept it or agree with it.

Pages of discussion would prove that you cannot. I don't just say "nah ah" and say I made my point.
That's what you are doing.

And I would never have the arrogance to move to a foreign nation where they speak French, German or whatever and ask that services be provided in English. It's my responsibility to learn to communicate in the language of where ever I'm going BEFORE going there.

It's not arrogance, it's hope.
People want to move to the US, or AUS, or the EU because they feel it would be better.
Learn Aztec, or piss off.
Oh, did not happen??
Imported a language?
Guess you are still an Immigrant, lets apply your thoughts to YOU.
English is not native to the US, it's native to the thieves who stole the country.
So, you live off the ill gotten gains of your "parent's", and you say that's worth kicking people out for.
When are you getting in line to be deported?

[Annoyed]

Then discuss solutions. You put forward an option, and demand it is the only solution.
That's not a discussion, it's a demand.

Congratulations, you have identified a problem, you have offered NO SOLUTION because you cannot do it by "any means necessary" because "any means" means nothing.
Old people are a problem, lets get rid of them by any means necessary.
I don't care if you paid into SS, I don't care if you were a taxpayer, they are a problem, let's fix it.
Offer a solution, not just another talking point.
Think about it, The right claims Obama care is an issue, they want to destroy it.
What is the solution?
Do they offer a fix?
Something better?
No, they offer nothing, just demand you accept that the current system is broken.
I offer having a discussion on the issue, and will even CONCEDE some of your points as fair and valid.
What will you concede?

No, you are not listening.
I'll give you 50 million for something that will work, I won't give you 10 million for something that won't.
The left is not unwilling to work on immigration, they are unwilling to work on dumb idea's.
Discuss the issue.
Australian immigration laws are positively draconian, and I'm pretty fine with them. I am iffy on our "illegal immigrant laws" simply because they are broad based and stupid.

Depends on your view.
In the short term, they are a drain, in the long term, they are a plus. If you just want to look at NOW, immigrants hurt Americans, or what you consider Americans. In the long term, they provide something the native population does not, people, work, and tax stream.
So, from your POV, immigrants are bad.
From a macro-economic POV, immigrants are good, legal or illegal. You want to filter that system, go for broke. What I don't like is people being treated as inhuman just because they are not "American" or "Australian"
People are people,, no matter where they were born.
If you accept that X people do not matter, why should anyone accept you? You are just a number in that system, and you are far past your use by date.

Do you have the right to tax them?
They are just a drain on the economy and provide nothing, right?
Or do you need to understand that illegal's actually contribute to the economy, and it's a balancing act, or are you going to go on?


Although I am no English major, in English, I can make myself understood by either the spoken word or written word. You don't seem to have any problem understanding what I say, even if you don't accept it or agree with it.

And I would never have the arrogance to move to a foreign nation where they speak French, German or whatever and ask that services be provided in English. It's my responsibility to learn to communicate in the language of where ever I'm going BEFORE going there.

All of which adds up to "you don't want to solve the problem either".

I still haven't heard your suggestion for stopping the flow of illegals into this country. And I mean stopping it, cold. Or as close to 100% as we can get.