The Political Discussion Thread

[Goose]

The "they hate us for our freedoms" does have some truth to it though. There is no such thing as individual rights, such as freedom of religion, in Islam, and the Koran does teach that any non Muslim must be subservient to Islam.


So you may find that statement ridiculous, it does bear some merit.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that all Muslims believe or accept it. Heck, the Bible contains plenty of stuff that most people aren't very comfortable with or stick to 100%.

[lordofseas]

The reason that Islam is a much more virulent religion is that Muslim Countries take the Quran literally. Christians and Jews tend to pick and choose the rules that they follow. People don't get stoned for touching Mt. Sinai, or for homosexuality, or even beastiality in current societies dominated by Jews and Christians. In Islamic countries, stoning is very much a punishment for crimes. (Interestingly, the Torah stipulates around 20? crimes that are punishable by stoning. The Quran stipulates none.)

[KEK]

So, Bin Laden was just an anti-totalitarian activist, then. Against propping up of dictators. Just about admirable of him.


I never cease to be fascinated that people can believe this stuff.

They don't, you're just lazily attacking a straw man.

They hate Israel for much the same reason- Israel is a democratic bone in the totalitarian throat, oozing dangerous ideas like the thought that state leaders can be held to account by courts of law. They hate Israel because Israel's success is their humiliation. The true believers, formerly unchallenged rulers of the world, outclassed by every measure by the lowly Jews who no longer accept being slaughtered at will by Allah's faithful.

I'm lost for words. How anyone could possibly believe that that's the reason Israel is so hated in the Middle East is beyond me, in fact I'm not even convinced you believe that yourself, not least because your post is basically just a paraphrased version of an article from waronjihad.org

Yes, Arabs hate Israel for their democracy, not their human rights abuses, war crimes, illegal settlements or general persecution of the Palestinians!

[Womble]

The "they hate us for our freedoms" does have some truth to it though.

Some?

Here's a direct quote from an essay titled "Freedom: A Western Export" that I've found published on the website of Hizb ut-Tahrir, a worldwide pan-Islamic political group with estimated membership of one million people:

Some modern day Muslim scholars and thinkers have been seduced by the concept of freedom due to the relentless barrage from the West to promote their values. Some have even written extensively in an attempt to reconcile Islam with the notion of freedom. There are many methods employed from such endeavours ranging from a rather crude view that Islam created freedom as an idea per se, and the rather more sophisticated, but equally false idea that somehow Islam can adapt to accept foreign ideas that are dominant. What then is the correct understanding of freedom in Islam? Is man free to act as he wishes? Can a Muslim subscribe to any of the freedoms mentioned and be a Muslim in the true sense?

The refutation is that a slave cannot serve two masters. In Islam, a believer’s declaration of faith (shahaada) requires him to submit unconditionally to the laws of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'aala) in all aspects of his life. This coincides harmoniously with the purpose of his life:

“I have not created Jinn and mankind but to worship me.” [TMQ 51:57]

Muslims cannot therefore be ‘free’ in any sense of the word if they have sincerely accepted the supremacy of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'aala) to legislate.

...Therefore, it is ignorant if not arrogant of the West to suggest that their export of freedom be it economic or otherwise is universal and can be shared by all. The economic policy in Islam is geared around achieving the balance between individual and community rights whilst in Capitalism rules are designed to allow a few rich individuals and multinationals maintain wealth at the expense of the rest of society. The West’s vision of economic freedom is analogous to rape and exploitation; its freedom of expression and religion is a farce; its value of individual freedom produces misery, chaos, perversity and sexual depravity. Islam seeks to liberate humanity from the slavery of man, globalisation and individual freedom to the worship and obedience of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'aala).

Not linking to the source because Hizb ut-Tahrir has been deservedly proscribed in many states for terrorist ties. Google the title, you'll find it.

[Goose]

Some?

Here's a direct quote from an essay titled "Freedom: A Western Export" that I've found published on the website of Hizb ut-Tahrir, a worldwide pan-Islamic political group with estimated membership of one million people:


Not linking to the source because Hizb ut-Tahrir has been deservedly proscribed in many states for terrorist ties. Google the title, you'll find it.

Don't assume that an organisation that has been label as terrorists speak for the majority.

[Womble]

Don't assume that an organisation that has been label as terrorists speak for the majority.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they have a membership of more than a million people worldwide, and what this essay says doesn't disagree a great deal with what opinion polls in Muslim societies demonstrate.

[Goose]

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they have a membership of more than a million people worldwide, and what this essay says doesn't disagree a great deal with what opinion polls in Muslim societies demonstrate.

There are 1.5 billion (ish) Muslims in the world. 1500 million. 1 million of those isn't exactly a large percentage.

[Galileo_Galilee]

Yes, but how many are sympathetic and support that small percentage? Many of them do not speak out against that small percentage, when they should. If they did, there might be a lot less problems in the world.

[lordofseas]

Yes, but how many are sympathetic and support that small percentage? Many of them do not speak out against that small percentage, when they should. If they did, there might be a lot less problems in the world.

How many of them can speak out against it. Half of the 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world, give or take a few million, are women. And when are women in Islamic countries given freedom of speech? And how many men can actually speak up without being stoned to death in those countries as well? I'm not saying that there are millions to "join the cause", but how many are educated to the standards? They could be like homeschooled children, knowing only what the parents (read: Government) want them to know. What I'm saying is that we have to avoid tarring the people of the Muslim faith unilaterally. I don't think the actual religion itself is good, but people are...well, people, wherever you go.

[Goose]

Yes, but how many are sympathetic and support that small percentage? Many of them do not speak out against that small percentage, when they should. If they did, there might be a lot less problems in the world.

I don't know, and neither do you.

[Womble]

There are 1.5 billion (ish) Muslims in the world. 1500 million. 1 million of those isn't exactly a large percentage.

(From July 2011 Pew poll).

Basically, in most Muslim societies, the popularity of Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden are in double digits. These are no small numbers, considering that Al-Qaeda is THE most radical and violent group out of those on offer. These numbers are also a drop from much higher numbers in the years right after 9/11 (2003 figures were 56% for Jordan, 61% for Pakistan, 59% for Indonesia- you get the picture). If you add up the following of other radical Islamist groups- Hizb ut-Tahrir, Lashkar e-Toiba, Muslim Brotherhood, Jemaa Islamiya, Hezbollah, Hamas etc., it adds up to a large share of population.

[Goose]

(From July 2011 Pew poll).

Basically, in most Muslim societies, the popularity of Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden are in double digits. These are no small numbers, considering that Al-Qaeda is THE most radical and violent group out of those on offer. These numbers are also a drop from much higher numbers in the years right after 9/11 (2003 figures were 56% for Jordan, 61% for Pakistan, 59% for Indonesia- you get the picture). If you add up the following of other radical Islamist groups- Hizb ut-Tahrir, Lashkar e-Toiba, Muslim Brotherhood, Jemaa Islamiya, Hezbollah, Hamas etc., it adds up to a large share of population.

You might want to look at the change from 03-11. In every single country the confidence in Osama is decreasing (and not by a little either), and as for al-Qaeda the numbers are not increasing (aside from the very, very small increase in Turkey and Egypt). And what's more, those survey's are only a hand-full of predominately Muslim countries; there are many more.

[Womble]

You might want to look at the change from 03-11. In every single country the confidence in Osama is decreasing (and not by a little either), and as for al-Qaeda the numbers are not increasing (aside from the very, very small increase in Turkey and Egypt).

But that's because Al-Qaeda didn't manage to score any more flashy successes, plus it shot itself in the foot by blowing up people in Muslim states. (That big drop in Jordanian opinion took place because of the 2005 Amman bombings). As the time passed, the glory faded.

And what's more, those survey's are only a hand-full of predominately Muslim countries; there are many more.

There are. But the picture isn't terribly different for Quatar or Bangladesh. There are polls which include them, too.

[lordofseas]

Besides, all those countries named, I wouldn't call them exactly "educated" countries. Many lack the skills of critical thinking, and simply listen at the mosque for what the Imam says, or the Government. I think Lebanon is the most advanced in terms of education, and that's really not saying that much. :/ I would say that governments, or religious leaders support Osama Bin Laden, and the people, not knowing much better, just support them because they don't have any other clue what to do.

It reminds me of the Middle Ages.

[Galileo_Galilee]

We've got a tag team match going on here. I'm rooting for Goose, just to make things even.