The Political Discussion Thread

[Nolamom]

Luther took it pretty far: LINK!

Certainly the rabble-rouser! but he didn't go so far as the killing (well, except for advocating it for rabbis who preached) like Hitler. The hatred ran pretty deep, didn't it?

[lordofseas]

someone needs to read "The Myth of Hitler's Pope"....if we were anti-Semitic then what was Pope Pius XII doing HELPING as many Jews as he could escape the Holocaust?

Someone needs to read people's posts. I said, "up to that point". Not "during". And I consider saying that the Jews as a people were responsible for the "deicide" of Jesus allows more leeway in terms of anti-Semitism, a policy only reversed 20 years after the Holocaust, and after the creation of the State of Israel.

[lordofseas]

Certainly the rabble-rouser! but he didn't go so far as the killing (well, except for advocating it for rabbis who preached) like Hitler. The hatred ran pretty deep, didn't it?

Because of the "deicide". Really. If I thought that the Jews could really kill God, I'd worship the Jews.

[mad_gater]

Certainly the rabble-rouser! but he didn't go so far as the killing (well, except for advocating it for rabbis who preached) like Hitler. The hatred ran pretty deep, didn't it?

yes...Luther had quite an ego...did you know that the word "alone" was not in the original text of Romans 3:28....ML put it there...and when questioned about it he said "If your papist makes an unnecessary row about the word "alone," tell him Dr. Martin Luther will have it so' and I order it to be so and my will is reason enough"....that should give you an idea of just how large his ego was

but even so to argue that the faith itself was anti-Semitic is just plain dumb.....every faith has its nutjobs....anti-Semitism has always been against Church teaching along with other intrinsic evils.....doesn't stop the nutjobs in these faiths from holding those beliefs anyway despite the doctrine

[lordofseas]

yes...Luther had quite an ego...did you know that the word "alone" was not in the original text of Romans 3:28....ML put it there...and when questioned about it he said "If your papist makes an unnecessary row about the word "alone," tell him Dr. Martin Luther will have it so' and I order it to be so and my will is reason enough"....that should give you an idea of just how large his ego was

but even so to argue that the faith itself was anti-Semitic is just plain dumb.....every faith has its nutjobs....anti-Semitism has always been against Church teaching along with other intrinsic evils.....doesn't stop the nutjobs in these faiths from holding those beliefs anyway despite the doctrine

Except this "nutjob" founded this sect of Christianity. Not so "isolated".

[mad_gater]

Except this "nutjob" founded this sect of Christianity. Not so "isolated".

except by then there were already a whole bunch of different Protestant denominations....many of which likely rejected the anti-Semitism of Luther

[lordofseas]

except by then there were already a whole bunch of different Protestant denominations....many of which likely rejected the anti-Semitism of Luther

Except you're completely ignoring my point. Lutheranism and Catholicism were the major religions in Germany before the Nazi's took over. Yes, they condemned the Holocaust both, but both religions provided a fresh ground for antisemitism beforehand, due to the Catholics' condemnation of the Jews as a people for killing their Messiah, and Lutheran's founding father was a virulent anti-Semitic.

[mad_gater]

Except you're completely ignoring my point. Lutheranism and Catholicism were the major religions in Germany before the Nazi's took over. Yes, they condemned the Holocaust both, but both religions provided a fresh ground for antisemitism beforehand, due to the Catholics' condemnation of the Jews as a people for killing their Messiah, and Lutheran's founding father was a virulent anti-Semitic.

as for Catholics again Pope Pius XII did all he could to HELP as many jews as he could escape the Holocaust....that hardly makes him an anti-Semite....yes there may have been some nutty Catholics that didn't like Jews much but hardly representative of the faith as a whole and certainly Jew hatred was not and never has been intrinsic to Church doctrine and besides not liking what they did to our Lord does not correlate to pure unadulterated Jew hatred

[lordofseas]

as for Catholics again Pope Pius XII did all he could to HELP as many jews as he could escape the Holocaust....that hardly makes him an anti-Semite....yes there may have been some nutty Catholics that didn't like Jews much but hardly representative of the faith as a whole and certainly Jew hatred was not and never has been intrinsic to Church doctrine and besides not liking what they did to our Lord does not correlate to pure unadulterated Jew hatred

Well, aren't you ignoring what I'm saying. I'm saying up to that point. Other than that, it's rather irrelevant to what we're discussing.

[mad_gater]

Well, aren't you ignoring what I'm saying. I'm saying up to that point. Other than that, it's rather irrelevant to what we're discussing.

then it's more correct to say that certain radical elements in Catholicism harbored anti-semitic views...not the Church itself

[KEK]

They attack America because of its freedom (as in its identity which both groups disagree with, but the identity none the less).

I'd say it's more to do with propping up Middle Eastern dictators they like, and then toppling ones they don't, personally. Not to mention their blind support of Israel.

[Womble]

I'd say it's more to do with propping up Middle Eastern dictators they like, and then toppling ones they don't, personally. Not to mention their blind support of Israel.

So, Bin Laden was just an anti-totalitarian activist, then. Against propping up of dictators. Just about admirable of him.


I never cease to be fascinated that people can believe this stuff. Violent mass-murderers subscribing to some of the worst totalitarian beliefs ever to have been spawned by mankind and seeking to establish a ruthless global theocracy attack someone for propping up dictators. As if ANY of those dictators was any less dictatorial than Bin Laden et al desire to be.

Sure, Islamist thugs hate Western-propped dictators- but not because they are dictators. They hate them because secular dictatorships fought groups whose ambition was to establish ruthless theocracies. They hate Israel for much the same reason- Israel is a democratic bone in the totalitarian throat, oozing dangerous ideas like the thought that state leaders can be held to account by courts of law. They hate Israel because Israel's success is their humiliation. The true believers, formerly unchallenged rulers of the world, outclassed by every measure by the lowly Jews who no longer accept being slaughtered at will by Allah's faithful.

[Goose]

Well, aren't you ignoring what I'm saying. I'm saying up to that point. Other than that, it's rather irrelevant to what we're discussing.

Common internet debating tactic: if you're opponent says something to contradict you, or says something true that goes against your point... ignore it.

[lordofseas]

then it's more correct to say that certain radical elements in Catholicism harbored anti-semitic views...not the Church itself

It's certainly acceptable to say that the Catholic Church in Germany was rather anti-Semitic. Because they were. Perhaps they were radical in the purview of the Church entirely, but you must look at the conversation in context. Germany was ripe ground for Hitler, because the two predominant churches in this area, namely the Lutherans and Catholics, were preaching anti-Semitic stuff, or at least giving ground to support anti-Semitic activity. Yes, the Lutheran Church and Catholic Church distanced themselves from the actions of Hitler when he set the Holocaust primarily into motion, but by then the damage was done. And the results were atrocious.

[Galileo_Galilee]

The "they hate us for our freedoms" does have some truth to it though. There is no such thing as individual rights, such as freedom of religion, in Islam, and the Koran does teach that any non Muslim must be subservient to Islam.


So you may find that statement ridiculous, it does bear some merit.