Religious Beliefs

[~Dave]

So interesting bunch of coincidences today.

This morning was the first time I ever ventured into this thread to check it out.

Later I watched the first 10 minutes of The View. Me who never watches The View.

They happened to talk about intelligent design vs. evolution which evolved into a talk about God which led to Whoopi Goldberg making a some truly great comments about God and faith, and saying this...

"What is The Big Bang, but a clap from God."

Now I'm not necessarily a believer in God, at least not the way he's preached by many people. If I believe in anything that God may have done, it's that He gave us free will. So her comments about a relatively laissez-faire type God who created everything and is essentially leaving us alone to hang out and discover it all for ourselves really hit home with me. I definitely like that idea more than I like the "God has a plan" stuff.

The bold highlight hits it for me. The question is: is whatever you like, your definition of what is? Does God have to fit into each person's like/dislike comfort zone?

~Dave

[Pandora's_Box]

The bold highlight hits it for me. The question is: is whatever you like, your definition of what is? Does God have to fit into each person's like/dislike comfort zone?

~Dave

For a supernatural being whose existence can never be proven or disproven, I say that the only way he can exist is through the belief of people, however that belief may occur.

[~Dave]

Other than the one you make for yourself. You may not agree with it, but that's why we all have free will.

I hope you;re no suggesting that believing in God and following the Word of the Bible is the path to "goodness" because a lot of what you define as evil is what people have done in the name of God and by following the Bible.

Which goes to show you that good and evil are not determined by what you read, but by how you interpret it. Ergo, free will.

Most people don't know what their Bible actually says. IMHO. So if some people act "in the name of God" they cannot be sure they are actually following what He said. They are usually perverting the Word. The Bible itself says that this is what will turn many away from Him. And those who do this will have some problems in the end times. So throwing the baby out with the bath water, is also not the right way. At least not for me.

I'm not emotionally invested in any religion. But this discussion is fascinating to me because it gives me a sounding board, off which to bounce some theories. And so far, I have no reason to believe either religion, or science. Specifically the big bang/evolution.

~Dave

[Pandora's_Box]

Most people don't know what their Bible actually says. IMHO. So if some people act "in the name of God" they cannot be sure they are actually following what He said. They are usually perverting the Word. The Bible itself says that this is what will turn many away from Him. And those who do this will have some problems in the end times. So throwing the baby out with the bath water, is also not the right way. At least not for me.

If they can read or if they've had it read to them, then they know what it says. The rest is up to individual interpretation. What you call a perversion, others will call the True Word. What you consider the right interpretation, others will see as blasphemous. People will take from the Bible only as much as they are capable and often it's only what they want to hear.

I'm not emotionally invested in any religion. But this discussion is fascinating to me because it gives me a sounding board, off which to bounce some theories. And so far, I have no reason to believe either religion, or science. Specifically the big bang/evolution.

~Dave

Why do you question the science and theory of evolution?

[~Dave]

For a supernatural being whose existence can never be proven or disproven, I say that the only way he can exist is through the belief of people, however that belief may occur.

So if people disbelieve something that can't be proven, then it can't exist? I remember many years ago when I was a young man, the "hippie" generation declared that God is dead. And so we were free at last to live any way we like. That usually led to experiencing "higher planes" of existence through psychodelic drugs. I was not a part of this movement, but I was there to witness it.

~Dave

[~Dave]

If they can read or if they've had it read to them, then they know what it says. The rest is up to individual interpretation. What you call a perversion, others will call the True Word. What you consider the right interpretation, others will see as blasphemous. People will take from the Bible only as much as they are capable and often it's only what they want to hear.



Why do you question the science and theory of evolution?

The day someone proves the theory, I guess I will have no choice but to believe it. I guess I try to reduce things down to common denominators. Start with the Big Bang. Ok, maybe this happened, I don't know. But the question is...what blew up, where did it come from, and why did it explode? We want to trace the universe back to it's origins, then we have to answer these questions. We have to know how the first "something" came into existence out of nothing. And no one can prove the scientific explanations any more than others can prove the religious explanations.

*edit* So science and religion are on equal footing, with me, until someone proves one or the other. Because both are equally hard for me to believe.

~Dave

[GhostPoet]

For a supernatural being whose existence can never be proven or disproven, I say that the only way he can exist is through the belief of people, however that belief may occur.

I don't really like that belief because it makes it seem like the universe revolves around us...that's human arrogence to the core. "Something can't exist without our first believing it"....just seems arrogent.

anyway, on a side note...ironically i've noticed in my own experience that it's been mainly athiests trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. There has been the occasional (though not many) Christian i've met as well.

I believe that those who force-feed their opinions on others really are not comfortable with their own beliefs and so in attempting to force others to believe is really only their attempt at trying to make themselves believe what they are talking about. Which, I suppose makes sense...since athiests are going on faith (another irony!) that God doesn't exist...and believing that christians go on faith that He does.

Life is funny when you think about it...

[Pandora's_Box]

So if people disbelieve something that can't be proven, then it can't exist?

Insofar as God is concerned, yes. That's what I think.

The way I see it, people believe in God because He is an explanation for the world, life, and everything that happens. And they live their lives according to what are considered His teachings and His commandments. Those are their morals and their actions are dictated by that. For those that believe, God is present in every moment, every action taken, in everything, I imagine.

Me, I don't live my life like that. I believe in what I can see and what I can touch, what I can rationalize with what I consider to be my common sense. I don't see a mystical being behind it all and I don't need there to be one.

I can't tell the difference. A lot of my morals happen to be the same as those of believers in God regardless of the religion, so whether God does or doesn't exist is really of no import to me.

I'll never know either way.

I remember many years ago when I was a young man, the "hippie" generation declared that God is dead. And so we were free at last to live any way we like. That usually led to experiencing "higher planes" of existence through psychodelic drugs. I was not a part of this movement, but I was there to witness it.

Implying what?

That the alternative to God is drugs?

I know many atheists who've never touched drugs. I am an atheist and I have never done drugs of any sort.

But, again, I'll reiterate my point about free will. How people choose to live their lives (with drugs or without) is their choice and their business. I have no problem with that.

[~Dave]

Insofar as God is concerned, yes. That's what I think.

The way I see it, people believe in God because He is an explanation for the world, life, and everything that happens. And they live their lives according to what are considered His teachings and His commandments. Those are their morals and their actions are dictated by that. For those that believe, God is present in every moment, every action taken, in everything, I imagine.

Me, I don't live my life like that. I believe in what I can see and what I can touch, what I can rationalize with what I consider to be my common sense. I don't see a mystical being behind it all and I don't need there to be one.

I can't tell the difference. A lot of my morals happen to be the same as those of believers in God regardless of the religion, so whether God does or doesn't exist is really of no import to me.

I'll never know either way.



Implying what?

That the alternative to God is drugs?

I know many atheists who've never touched drugs. I am an atheist and I have never done drugs of any sort.

But, again, I'll reiterate my point about free will. How people choose to live their lives (with drugs or without) is their choice and their business. I have no problem with that.

Of course not. The alternative to a standard code of conduct is anarchy. It frees everyone to do whatever they like. You would use your intellect to do what is good. Others would use theirs to do what you would consider evil. Pretty much what we have today even with religion. Might it be worse without religion?

~Dave

[Pandora's_Box]

The day someone proves the theory, I guess I will have no choice but to believe it. I guess I try to reduce things down to common denominators. Start with the Big Bang. Ok, maybe this happened, I don't know. But the question is...what blew up, where did it come from, and why did it explode? We want to trace the universe back to it's origins, then we have to answer these questions. We have to know how the first "something" came into existence out of nothing. And no one can prove the scientific explanations any more than others can prove the religious explanations.

*edit* So science and religion are on equal footing, with me, until someone proves one or the other. Because both are equally hard for me to believe.

~Dave

Well, technically The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution are two entirely different entities.

While I agree that the BBT can still be questioned, the theory of evolution, on the other hand, is pretty solid.

I don't really like that belief because it makes it seem like the universe revolves around us...that's human arrogence to the core. "Something can't exist without our first believing it"....just seems arrogent.

And who else dictates what you do and don't believe, but yourself?

That said, I'm not talking about something tangible here, but about a mystical being whose existence can't be quantified. You can't prove God's existence in any irrefutable manner. So His existence in the mind of a person hinges on people believing He exists.

He could very well be up there somewhere (or down below or in a tree, wherever), but I don't know whether He is or He isn't, so to me He is non-existent.

[Pandora's_Box]

Of course not. The alternative to a standard code of conduct is anarchy. It frees everyone to do whatever they like. You would use your intellect to do what is good. Others would use theirs to do what you would consider evil. Pretty much what we have today even with religion. Might it be worse without religion?

~Dave

Why? Because people would no longer fear the retribution of God for punishable deeds?

Maybe, but there will always be something bigger and badder than yourself out there. There will always be something to fear even if there isn't God.

[GhostPoet]

Going to God out of depression or fear is actually a pretty selfish thing to do...and while it's not necessarily a BAD thing....staying with God because you’re afraid of hell or because you want the super happy feelings isn't good.

[jenks]

The day someone proves the theory, I guess I will have no choice but to believe it. I guess I try to reduce things down to common denominators. Start with the Big Bang. Ok, maybe this happened, I don't know. But the question is...what blew up, where did it come from, and why did it explode? We want to trace the universe back to it's origins, then we have to answer these questions. We have to know how the first "something" came into existence out of nothing. And no one can prove the scientific explanations any more than others can prove the religious explanations.

*edit* So science and religion are on equal footing, with me, until someone proves one or the other. Because both are equally hard for me to believe.

~Dave

It's been proven, that's why it's called a theory and not a hypothesis. The scientific use of the word isn't the same as the general use of the word, evolution isn't a theory in the general sense of the word, that's a common misconception. In science a hypothesis is the equivalent of what in general we would call a theory, a fact is usually an observation like water boils as 100 degrees etc, and a theory is the highest form of understanding. It's a body of testing and falsifiable proof using scientific method that allows us to understand a phenomena, that's what evolution is. Evolution theory is no more in doubt than gravitation theory, or any other universally accepted science.

[~Dave]

.........Well, technically The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution are two entirely different entities.

While I agree that the BBT can still be questioned, the theory of evolution, on the other hand, is pretty solid..........

You want irrefutable proof of the existence of God before you will believe. But you accept vague theories of evolution as "pretty solid".

Technically, for me at least, both the BBT and evolution are the same basic question. The origin of everything which led to the origin of life. Evolution says that life was a random accident, and took place over millions of years. That's mutually exclusive to religion. Yet, if you could just show me the process by which non-living matter becomes living matter, it would go a long way toward making me a believer. But we still have to take on "faith" that this happened. Sounds like just another religion to me.

~Dave

[Pandora's_Box]

Going to God out of depression or fear is actually a pretty selfish thing to do...and while it's not necessarily a BAD thing....staying with God because you’re afraid of hell or because you want the super happy feelings isn't good.

Why? If it makes someone feel better to know that their belief in God is saving them from damnation or that their belief in God brings "super happy feelings", why should you begrudge them that happiness or self-fulfillment?

We all look to get different things out of life. It may not be why you believe or what you look to God for, but it works for the other guy so what does it matter?