Does God exist?

[Agent_Dark]

King George did have every right to restore order, and all historians agree that George Washington and the other founding fathers broke the law by declaring independence, if the revolution had failed they all would have been hanged.

However they won and the United States is an established nation, therefore I am loyal to the United States.

so if the outcome is ok, you dont care what happened to get there?

[uknesvuinng]

Not always the case, but you are still supposed to obey law and respect the establishment. However, when referring to God, the above is true.

Law is NEVER a moral authority. Morality precedes laws. And laws are only to be used in a limited set of situations, well... unless you hate freedom and think people must be strictly controlled.

And citing some book that contradicts itself and reality, claiming it to be the "Word of God," neither makes it authoritative nor even truly the "Word of God." The Gnostic gospels of Christ would say that the OT god was in fact running a scam and only claimed to create the world when in fact he merely found it, and Jesus came from the true god to set the record straight. The Gnostic gospels were written by people that had just as much access to the teachings of Jesus as the writers of the traditional gospels. Had Paul not won the popularity contest, you'd probably be believing this yourself.

King George did have every right to restore order, and all historians agree that George Washington and the other founding fathers broke the law by declaring independence, if the revolution had failed they all would have been hanged.

However they won and the United States is an established nation, therefore I am loyal to the United States.

So breaking the law is bad, unless you win, then it's ok...

Your moral foundation appears to be a little weak...

[Daedalus-304]

god is in charge of all nations is he? who voted for him in which election? The answer is no-one. and if, in your so called reality, he is the leader of all nations then he's a self-proclaimed leader then - they tend to be called dictators.

God is ruler of all nations because he is the one that created all nations. All nations leaders have their position because God allows them to be there. I didn't vote for my parents to have absolute rulers of my house growing up, but they were anyway.

if he is so all powerful and mighty, why did he let them get into slavery in the first place? why couldn't have just made them not slaves? why did he have deliberately and indiscriminately kill innocents in order to get what he wanted (which if he was so powerful he could have simply made so, without all the violence)?

I think you are confusing God with Santa Claus. God does not sit up in heaven and just give people gifts or make everyone play nice, God is more similar to the role of father. God allows people to make their own choices, but God does punish people for doing wrong. What kind of god would God be if he didn't punish people when they did wrong. Just like, what kind of parents wouldn't punish their children when they do wrong? Parents allow their children to make their own choices, but they must punish their children when they do wrong, for their own good otherwise they will never learn right from wrong. If God didn't let Egypt make it's own choices, how is it going grow up?

[Agent_Dark]

God is ruler of all nations because he is the one that created all nations. All nations leaders have their position because God allows them to be there. I didn't vote for my parents to have absolute rulers of my house growing up, but they were anyway.

yet... there comes a stage when the child moves out of the authority of their parents and goes on their own.

I think you are confusing God with Santa Claus. God does not sit up in heaven and just give people gifts or make everyone play nice, God is more similar to the role of father. God allows people to make their own choices, but God does punish people for doing wrong. What kind of god would God be if he didn't punish people when they did wrong. Just like, what kind of parents wouldn't punish their children when they do wrong? Parents allow their children to make their own choices, but they must punish their children when they do wrong, for their own good otherwise they will never learn right from wrong. If God didn't let Egypt make it's own choices, how is it going grow up?

they why did god create people who could do wrong? so he could get off on a little power kick 'punishing' them?

[Daedalus-304]

Law is NEVER a moral authority. Morality precedes laws. And laws are only to be used in a limited set of situations, well... unless you hate freedom and think people must be strictly controlled.

Of course not, laws are not a moral authority. However laws are to be obeyed. Laws come from the Authority of the government, and that authority should be respected.

And citing some book that contradicts itself and reality, claiming it to be the "Word of God," neither makes it authoritative nor even truly the "Word of God."

Once again, the Bible never truly contradicts itself, especially on the principles themselves.

The Gnostic gospels were written by people that had just as much access to the teachings of Jesus as the writers of the traditional gospels. Had Paul not won the popularity contest, you'd probably be believing this yourself.

Incorrect, the gospels were written very shortly after the life of Jesus, some scholars date them to be written 20 years after and came from eyewitness accounts. Not only that, if the gospel writers lied, they would have had eyewitnesses that would have pointed that out, but we have no accounts of this. Paul's letters however were written even earlier than that. The Gnostic Gospels however were written a hundred years after the life of Jesus, and did not come from eyewitness accounts.

[uknesvuinng]

God is ruler of all nations because he is the one that created all nations. All nations leaders have their position because God allows them to be there. I didn't vote for my parents to have absolute rulers of my house growing up, but they were anyway.

So... does God rig the elections if they don't go his way? Why don't we just give up elections and the Constitution and all that. We can go back to the Divine Right of Kings. If God is picking the rulers, after all, then it doesn't matter how we think we choose them, they're still who God chooses.

Of course, this now means that God is responsible for the Holocaust, Soviet-style Communism, fundamentalist Muslim theocracies, and pretty much every other bad world event that has ever occurred because some guy was in power. It also means you can't blame atheism for stuff like Soviet-style Communism, because it didn't matter where the philosophy came from, it's what God wanted to happen. In fact, it also means God put people in power who he knew would legalize abortion (he does still have that omnipotence, doesn't he?), and combined with the fact he sent the Israelites out to forcibly rip open the wombs of pregnant women, I'd say that makes God not pro-choice (cause it appears he absolutely abhors choice), and definitely not pro-life, but pro-abortion. You have to look pretty hard to find someone that actually wants to force abortions on people.

Well, now we've solved the problem of worldwide conflicts. It was God the whole time. Now, if he'd leave our governments alone, we might actually make some real headway.


Or, we could actually get out of fantasy land, and realize there are no gods deciding who gets to be ruler and who doesn't, and there's no overarching plan to the whole of life. We're just making it up as we go along.

God allows people to make their own choices

Except for their own government...

[Daedalus-304]

yet... there comes a stage when the child moves out of the authority of their parents and goes on their own.

It should be self-evident that Humanity is no where near of something like this. It's also to point out that there is no age limit of the authority of parents. The fifth commandment does not say: honor your father and mother until age 18; there is no age limit on this command. Therefore my parents will have authority over me for the rest of our lives.

they why did god create people who could do wrong? so he could get off on a little power kick 'punishing' them?

Really do you think God enjoys punishing people? Just as parents do not enjoy punishing their children, God does not like to. God create people who could do wrong because he wanted people to have free will. God wanted to create people who were like him, not mechanical robots.

[Agent_Dark]

It should be self-evident that Humanity is no where near of something like this. It's also to point out that there is no age limit of the authority of parents. The fifth commandment does not say: honor your father and mother until age 18; there is no age limit on this command. Therefore my parents will have authority over me for the rest of our lives.

lol. did you get beaten up in school for being a mummy's boy?

God create people who could do wrong because he wanted people to have free will.

but you just said above that god only allows leaders he approves of to come into power. how can we have free will if god is actually going to do what he wants anyway?

God wanted to create people who were like him, not mechanical robots.

so hitler was like god then?

[Daedalus-304]

So... does God rig the elections if they don't go his way? Why don't we just give up elections and the Constitution and all that. We can go back to the Divine Right of Kings. If God is picking the rulers, after all, then it doesn't matter how we think we choose them, they're still who God chooses.

God does not rig elections, he allows free will to happen. God allows governments to be like they are, it does not mean He agrees with everything they do. In fact if you look at prophecy, you will see that the nations will be punished for all they have done wrong.

[Daedalus-304]

so hitler was like god then?

Yes, just like Satan and the archangel Michael are similar. Men are like God, but corrupted by sin.

[uknesvuinng]

Of course not, laws are not a moral authority. However laws are to be obeyed. Laws come from the Authority of the government, and that authority should be respected.

Unless they're morally wrong, in which case, pick and choose your battles. I don't particularly know about you, but I don't require anyone to tell me how to live. I have a fully functional brain and I can work it out all by myself.

Once again, the Bible never truly contradicts itself, especially on the principles themselves.

Of course not, those two completely different genealogies of Joseph are perfectly coincident, and God is Satan, that's they both got credit for making David do the census. And of course 2 animals = 7 animals = 14 animals. And God made all the plants and animals before humans, then destroyed (and forgot to mention it) all the plants and animals before making Adam, then remaking all the plants and animals, then making Eve...

Incorrect, the gospels were written very shortly after the life of Jesus, some scholars date them to be written 20 years after and came from eyewitness accounts. Not only that, if the gospel writers lied, they would have had eyewitnesses that would have pointed that out, but we have no accounts of this. Paul's letters however were written even earlier than that. The Gnostic Gospels however were written a hundred years after the life of Jesus, and did not come from eyewitness accounts.

Umm, if gnosticism wasn't until after Paul, why is it Paul referred to them in his letters?

Also, the earliest gospel (Mark) wasn't written until the late 60s - early 70s CE, 33 years after at the earliest possible year (66). Whereas the Gospel of Thomas was possibly written around the year 50 (though another school of thought puts it around 2nd century, and the answer isn't yet concluded). However, Gnostic Christianity was around as long as the Paulist version followed today, and had Christian history gone differently, it could have very well been the version you would follow instead.

[jenks]

Of course not, laws are not a moral authority. However laws are to be obeyed. Laws come from the Authority of the government, and that authority should be respected.

What if it's wrong?

[s09119]

This whole argument is rediculous. The pro-God people are on the backfoot, making more and more stupid-sounding arguments up as we go along. I mean, according to them:

- An elected leader who outlaws religion in his nation is doing the work of God--Yeah, sounds a bit ludacris, huh?
- Terrorists are doing the work of God, too. By killing thousands of impure people, they are helping to balance out the world. How kind of God.
- Free will is basically a joke, since God ultimately controls all nations and leaders.
- God forces humanity through untold suffering (Holocaust, Cold War, Crusades, etc.) in order to "show us the light" at the end... Yeah, such a kind and benevolent God worthy of our love...

[Womble]

The argument isn't made on the solely on the ability of the minor to consent, but whether the minor can make informed consent to an agreement with a non-minor, based on concerns of non-minors having something of a psychological advantage word, making the minor's judgment suspect (since the older isn't a peer). In the case of two minors, they're both in the same boat, so even though their judgment is questionable for other reasons, the argument can't necessarily be made that one had a coercive effect by being much older.

If they are both in the same boat, it doesn't mean they are any better at making informed consent. Kind of like a fool's judgement doesn't become any smarter when he is paired with another fool.

Thus the point of my example showing that hard and fast limits are flawed. Maturity varies too widely for a immutable "age of consent" to adequately deal with all situations.

Hard and fast ot vague and flexible, it is not the point. The question is on what basis and by what authority one decides about whether or not to set an age of consent and at what ages.

While you might make a convincing argument against a 30 year old having sex with a 15 year old, as you approach a small range between ages and the mean approaching the chosen age of consent, the argument becomes significantly weaker.

No it doesn't. If setting the age of consent on a particular age is a purely arbitrary decision, then there is no reason why one couldn't just as legitimately set the age of consent at any random age from one month to 12 years.

A seven year old obviously can't make informed consent, as such a child hasn't even begun puberty yet.

What does puberty have to do with the ability of making informed consent?

Paedophilia also fails with a hard and fast age, but at least the barrier of puberty and the development of secondary sex characteristics is an observable, objective measure and makes it a pretty clear case.

Not reall. The ages of achieving puberty vary widely and can occur at the age of 10 and even earlier, and sexual relations with minors are classified as paedophilia irrespective of the minor's puberty levels.

For a more realistic example of a post-pubescent 13 or 14 year old, it gets tricky, and should be covered on a case-by-case basis dealing with the maturity of the child. Life's too fuzzy to legislate morality.

And yet there's no escape from legislating it, because that's the only way societies gain order.

Morality doesn't fit wholly into discrete little rules without killing freedom.

Morality is SUPPOSED to "kill" freedom. What is morality, if not a set of limitations imposed on one's right to freely act on their desires?

Also, laws aren't supposed to exist to keep people from doing stupid things to themselves. Well... unless you think people are too stupid to be responsible for themselves but somehow you, being just another person no better than they, are qualified to tell them how to live. Such an idea is at the height of arrogance.

It's your relativistic posture in this paragrpaph that it at the height of arrogance. Laws are supposed to exist for the common benefit of the society members. If the society is harmed by people doing stupid things to themselves (which is very often the case; unless you are a hermit in the woods, it is pretty difficult to do something to yourself without it having a wider impact), laws should be, and usually are, enacted to prevent such harm.

[Womble]

Of course not, those two completely different genealogies of Joseph are perfectly coincident, and God is Satan, that's they both got credit for making David do the census. And of course 2 animals = 7 animals = 14 animals. And God made all the plants and animals before humans, then destroyed (and forgot to mention it) all the plants and animals before making Adam, then remaking all the plants and animals, then making Eve...

"The river tells no lies, yet standing at its shores the dishonest man still hears them", as Oma Desala once said. If you can't read it right, it doesn't mean that the text is faulty.