The Samanda Whinge nuts

[KatG]

No-romos--is that like Roto-Rooter?

Yep. They "root" out the ship wherever they find it.

[ParadoxRealities]

It's true, people should just watch the show if they want to get a clear picture of the character. Unfortunatly, I think a lot of people do base their opinions of a character on what they read, which is unfortunate, since - in my experience - the majority of fan fic writers appear to be shippers - or are biased towards one thing or another. That's not to say shippy fic is bad, but it is a bit discouraging to flip through pages and pages and pages of ship ship ship.



I think ya hit the nail on the head.

i think there are two things affecting this. 1) how many non-sam fans (or just general likers of sam) read samfic? i know i don't read much daniel fic. 2) i think a few people have said it: the vast majority of anti-sam fans I (we) meet are JackDaniel slashers that don't like SJ in canon (<--vast majority), or AA fans that don't like sam shipped with everyone in canon, or AA/team fans that don't like time spent on SJ in canon. most people that don't like the "sam's just a part of SJ"/"she's a freaking w*****" get their info from canon (Martouf, Orlin, Narim, Pete, etc, etc, etc). while some people do use fanon to judge characters, most of the time they're already anti-sam from the above reasons. i don't think i've ever met someone that went from liking/indifferent to hate because of fanfic.

Including the show writers

human nature? ...oh wait, but, TPTB...

To be entirely fair here, it's not JUST shippers that see 'ship in every corner, and interperet every little discussion or glance as 'ship. I've seen lots of Anti-Shippers do the same thing. They'll point at scenes that I don't find remotely shippy and cry that it ruined the episode. Meanwhile, I'm scratching my head going "Huh? There was 'ship in that episode? How'd I miss that?"

i always find that amusing. wha? that, that thing, there? that's ship? i thought she was blowing her nose!

[scarimor]

I'm not sure what point you're making, PR. If the show's writers don't write it, why should fanfic writers do so?

But why shouldn't they?

Woah! Back up there, Deejay. I didn't say they shouldn't. We were talking about them having to write it.

If that's what they like. I mean, I don't see Sam/Janet or Sam/Vala. I sure as heck don't see it on the show. I don't believe the writers write it on the show. Does that mean you shouldn't write it?

Yeah, I thought so. You missed the point

Paradox said:
"see, that's what i don't get. if it's [i.e. the ship] a part of her, it should be written as a part of her. just like she's a scientist,]

.. but I think we cleared up what we meant in that conversation already. Things got a little out of context.

[Myrth]

You know ultimately fan fic is so subject to personal choice and opinion that I don't really bother thinking about why there aren't stories that fit what I want. I think ultimately fan fic was born in response to that exact need. It ain't there, I'm gonna write it myself.

As for the breakdown of fic available, that comes down to who's writing it. Perhaps the shippers are more likely to put pen to paper, who knows. Ultimately the only way to get exactly what you want all the time is to write it yourself.. I think anyway.

Personally speaking, I don't see the point in reading something that doesn't put Sam in some kind of sexual situation with someone I see her having chemistry with, whether that's Jack or Vala. I like the other characteristics I enjoy about Sam to be blended around a dark intoxicating sexual attraction. That's purely a personal preference for me and it's what I'll read and enjoy the most. Although stark poignance gets me too... kinda depends on what mood I'm in. I don't expect anyone else to feel exactly the same way about it, nor do I expect anyone else to provide it for me. I find the things I like in what's available, or I play out the elements I Want to see in my own musings. Yanno?

I'd say this ficathon will bring some new and interesting stories, some will appeal to some people, others to other people. There's no "right" when opinion is the key to the issue really.

Ah. My apologies for that. You're right, I was talking about something different. I should have gone back and read the earlier posts, mea culpa.



Well, I'd love to say I prefer GEN Sam fic to the variety that has some romance in it (even in small measure) but the fact is (comparing good writing with good writing), I'm quite a ship-wh*** I love my action/adventure/romance (in that order most especially). Given the choice, I prefer A/A/R to pure GEN hands down. But that's just me. I do agree that (strictly speaking) great fiction does not HAVE to have a romantic element involved. Whether that's Samfic or otherwise.

[Agent_Dark]

To be entirely fair here, it's not JUST shippers that see 'ship in every corner, and interperet every little discussion or glance as 'ship. I've seen lots of Anti-Shippers do the same thing. They'll point at scenes that I don't find remotely shippy and cry that it ruined the episode. Meanwhile, I'm scratching my head going "Huh? There was 'ship in that episode? How'd I miss that?"

Oh yeah. They dont like the ship, they claim that no such thing ever existed in canon yet they spend dozen's of pages talking about it. How can you talk about something if it doesn't exist? That's why I've always said that the shippers and anti-shippers are as bad as each other.

But why would you, or anyone really, base their interpretation of Sam (or any character, really) on fan fiction?

Sometimes I think people take fanfic WAY too seriously.

I think it has to do with how poorly Stargate does the character stuff on the show. The show rarely deals with the all the things that fic writers love - angst, hurt/comfort and dealing with the aftermath. Case in point - I really dont feel the urge to read any Battlestar Galactica or Firefly fanfic. And I've come to the realisation that because those two shows deal with the issues so well on the screen itself (the angst, hurt/comfort and aftermath) I don't need to read the fic for it. Since SG1 doesn't do that, they need to express or get their fix through fanfic. So when they wanted to read fic that dealt with those things for Sam, all they can find is Shippy stuff. It's alot easier to simply dismiss something and hate it, than it is to fix it.

But if people are off actively looking for fic about Sam, then I would think they were predisposed to liking her, to being interested in her, and to wanting to see more of her. I don't know why those people would suddenly decide she was somehow at fault for the fact that they can't find fic they want.

The thing is, they wanted to find fic about Sam (keep in mind that they are not thrilled about the ship) but can't find any that doesn't have it. The shippers are all writing Sam/Jack, the slashers are all writing Jack/Daniel. Hence, if they wanted to read fic with Sam in it they had to read Sam/Jack. So they just dismiss Sam.

It just doesn't make sense to say "Oh, I like Sam, I want to read more about her. I don't like Sam with Jack though. Oh! ALL the fic is Sam/Jack! Dangit! I hate that skank Sam!"

I know that almost all the people I've run into on the 'net who hate Sam are Jack/Daniel fans.
So yeah. 'Ship is probably at the bottom of the Sam-hate that's out there, but not, I don't believe, in the way you posted.

It may not make sense but from what I've seen, it's the way it happens. Nearly every anti-Sam opinion I've seen comes, in one way or another, from Sam/Jack ship. As I said before, I can quite easily interpret the canon to not mean the 'twu wuv' S/J ship, so I'm quite sure anyone else could as well. The problem therefore has to come from the fandom itself. I've seen how annoying shippers (in general) can get over their likes, and I could easily see why they would attract negative attention from other people - that spills over into the dislike of Sam.

[Agent_Dark]

DEM and I (and AD, I think) are talking about something quite specific: i.e. about individual stories, and the fact that so many Sam fanfic stories are built around a romantic relationship (usually Jack, occasionally Janet, even more rarely Teal'c or Daniel); or strongly feature such a relationship.

Now, the overwhelming majority of the show's episodes don't do that. And some of us are hoping (and those of us who are signed up to write will be responsible for deciding) that the Sam Carter ficathon will contribute stories which don't do that as well. Because there's a heck of a dearth of them.

lol, yes. That was a point I was trying to make (in a very roundabout, not very clear kinda way )

[Agent_Dark]

You should write what you enjoy. And what inspires you. If you want to see more Gen fic-write it, if that's what you enjoy or inspires you. If it's ship-write that.

Oh, I'm definately not asking anyone to stop writing Sam/Jack. By all means, if you like that continue to write it. I'm just asking people to not write it all the time. Throw the people who don't like it some bones I myself can't write fic, and I much prefer to read it than write it anyway.

Put it this way: Imagine if every fic you read was set in s9 where all the authors have Mitchell clearly leading SG1 and Sam being 2IC. Even though the authors do recognise that Mitchell is not the only one who could lead SG1. You could find some fic that deal with the 'who is actually in command?' but you rarely find fic with Sam in command. That's kinda how it is with Sam and the ship thing.

[minigeek]

Put it this way: Imagine if every fic you read was set in s9 where all the authors have Mitchell clearly leading SG1 and Sam being 2IC. Even though the authors do recognise that Mitchell is not the only one who could lead SG1. You could find some fic that deal with the 'who is actually in command?' but you rarely find fic with Sam in command. That's kinda how it is with Sam and the ship thing.

Yes, well too bad so sad. Myrth is right. If the kind of story you like doesn't exist, the purpose of fanfiction is for you to sit down and write it. Whinging that no one else is writing what you like doesn't get anything creative done any faster. Fanfiction has no rules and no boundaries - if there's a void, then fill it up!

I've seen how annoying shippers (in general) can get over their likes, and I could easily see why they would attract negative attention from other people - that spills over into the dislike of Sam.

Oh, come on. Anti shippers (in general) can be just as annoying in their unbending refusal to acknowledge even the slightest spark between Sam and Jack that might go beyond friendship; in their abject denial that there's an attraction between the characters and in their constant rebuttal of any and all canon references - even actual dialogue - purely because they hate ship so much, Sam and Jack could *snog* on screen and they'd still deny it was there. Total head in the sand syndrom. It works both ways, ya know? And that can spill over just as easily.

If there's an "evil" here, it's not the concept of romance for Sam Carter, it's the fact that people don't all agree about who she should be romanced WITH. Canon leans towards Jack so there's more fanfiction about it; that's the reason why. Those who like that pairing rejoice in such fanfiction. Those who don't will often tend towards yearning for GEN only because if canon already leans towards Sam and Jack and they hate that pairing, the easiest and most believable rebuttal of that would be to chant for noromo. At least that's possible in future canon, whereas Sam (Daniel/Janet/Teal'c etc) is not. A spade's still a spade at the end of the day.

mg

[Skydiver]

this is such a complex issue

first of all, until the stargate fandom, GEN was a RATING not a GENRE. GEN = non-explicit fic. Maybe the equivalent of rated PG or below. That was gen

but in the stargate fandom, the term has been warped to mean 'anti-romance' (and, in the case of some, pre-slash/smarmy m/m buddy stuff)

the very same people that want to have 'canon ship' = gen (jack/sara, daniel/shauri, teal'c/ishta, teal'c/shonac, etc) also declare that ANY AND ALL sam and jack MUST be ship. Even if they are just talking about the weather. If they interact, it's ship. Basically, the term 'gen' is used to discriminate against a pairing that some find distasteful


for example, there is a fic where daniel is hurt. sam and teal'c go for help, while jack cuddles with an injured daniel in a sleeping bag to keep him warm...and while he's cuddling he's thinking about daniels pretty hair and i think even strokes it

to many, that's gen.

but if you swap daniel for sam and put that same 'gen' fic in front of the same folks, OMG, it's ship. protect the children and lock it away!!!!!!!!!

[Mandysg1]

for example, there is a fic where daniel is hurt. sam and teal'c go for help, while jack cuddles with an injured daniel in a sleeping bag to keep him warm...and while he's cuddling he's thinking about daniels pretty hair and i think even strokes it
to many, that's gen.

but if you swap daniel for sam and put that same 'gen' fic in front of the same folks, OMG, it's ship. protect the children and lock it away!!!!!!!!!

Um...

[ReganX]

this is such a complex issue

first of all, until the stargate fandom, GEN was a RATING not a GENRE. GEN = non-explicit fic. Maybe the equivalent of rated PG or below. That was gen

but in the stargate fandom, the term has been warped to mean 'anti-romance' (and, in the case of some, pre-slash/smarmy m/m buddy stuff)

the very same people that want to have 'canon ship' = gen (jack/sara, daniel/shauri, teal'c/ishta, teal'c/shonac, etc) also declare that ANY AND ALL sam and jack MUST be ship. Even if they are just talking about the weather. If they interact, it's ship. Basically, the term 'gen' is used to discriminate against a pairing that some find distasteful


for example, there is a fic where daniel is hurt. sam and teal'c go for help, while jack cuddles with an injured daniel in a sleeping bag to keep him warm...and while he's cuddling he's thinking about daniels pretty hair and i think even strokes it

to many, that's gen.

but if you swap daniel for sam and put that same 'gen' fic in front of the same folks, OMG, it's ship. protect the children and lock it away!!!!!!!!!

Where's the line between 'gen' and 'ship'? I can't figure it out.

A reviewer asked if one of my WIPs was going to be Sam/Jack ship and I wasn't sure what to say - this time last year, I'd have said that unless characters were actually paired off, or unless there were fairly strong hints that they would become involved after the story had ended, or maybe if romantic thoughts and feelings were aluded to fairly frequently, it wasn't shippy.

How close can Sam and Jack be shown to be before 'gen' becomes 'ship' or 'pre-ship' or something?

Is there a line?

[minigeek]

Yes, exactly, Sky. A romance between Sam and Jack is distasteful and engenders annoying behavior, therefore there should be no romance for Sam at all (unless it's Sam and Daniel or Sam and Janet or Sam and Barret or Sam and Thor or Sam and (take your pick), in which case, it's fine). Sam/Jack fans are annoying in general, therefore Sam and Jack have no credibility together - in canon or otherwise. No matter what happens in canon dialogue, no matter how many times their attraction is played out by the actors or alluded to in canon script. None of it exists, because it's distasteful. Exqueeze me?

As I recall, Bill Clinton said he never lied, that he didn't have "sexual relations" with Monica Leqwinski. Because of that, he chose to define "sexual relations" in a different way than the rest of the known world - since it suited his circumstance. Well, he could certainly choose to do that. Doesn't mean that he didn't have sexual relations with Monica, now, does it?

[DEM]

Well, see, Sky, that's a big part of the problem. That example you gave: I don't get it at all. Furthermore, I'm not sure the GEN label is used consistently at all sites. IIRC, non-explicit 'ship is labelled 'ship' in many places.

Then there's the weirdness of "ship is not 'adult' but slash is". The heck?!

So, yeah, the labels in SG-1 fandom confuse me. Then again, every fandom has its own quirks.

[majorsal]

But that's the thing - I don't particulary enjoy that. In fact, I don't even see it on the show anyway. Sure there is the wierd thing between them, but it's certainly not (as DEM mentioned) there in every episode. Only when (and no offence intended here) the shippers start interpreting every single glance as a sign of the ship do you get it in every ep.

Put it this way - I know everyone keeps saying that Sam is not simply part of Sam/Jack. That there is more to her than the ship. But how can I believe that when every fic I read incoporates it? At best it almost comes across as 'oh sure, there's more to Sam than the ship... but thats not the part we care about'. Now obviously I understand that its what you like to read, but it doesn't leave much for us non-shippers to go on. I also believe that this is one of the reasons why Sam attracts so much negativity amongst certain sections of the fandom - not so much because of what goes on on-screen, but what happens off-screen in the fic. People who aren't thrilled about s/j ship go to look for fic with Sam - but all they can find is fic that is about ship. Let's face it, if I can easily interpret the show from a non-shipper point of view (it's not even fanwanking either) I'm quite sure anyone else could as well. Which leaves the fandom itself as the reason why these issues have risen. They don't like Sam because all the fic that Sam features in has ship thrown in with it. It's the shippers themselves that have fueled the hate in them. A rather absurd situation when you think about it, but I do believe it's the case.
And before you get all defensive (), I've always seen both 'sides' as bad as the other. I probably have a little bit more respect for the 'shipper' side, since at least they actually do like Sam as a character. As for the other side - if you don't like it, why the frack don't you fix it through fanfic and write the characterisation the way you would friggen like it instead of ranting on with your hate about. You do it for every other bloody thing (though I'm coming across more and more people from the 'slash/non-ship' side that respect the character and have similiar viewpoints to my own). In fact, when I think about it, of all the 'factions' in the fandom it's the femslashers who I agree with the most. Not really because of the femslash (though I don't mind that one bit ) but because of their take on Sam. None of the ship and none of the anti-ship hate. It's win/win for me

Anyway, that's just the way I see things. The fandom is rather fracked up in my opinion, to the point where sometimes I wish I never got involved. But then I would have never met all the awesome people in Samanda and elsewhere and read all the awesome (albiet rare ) fic. Decent trade off I guess

if to read sam-centric fics, you have to read sam/jack in it, it's because more shippers write sam than gen peeps. so for the gen peeps out there (which, ad, you're still in the shipper pool because you like sam/female ); write sam gen fic.





sally

[Mandysg1]

Here's a totally gen fic, no ship what so ever

Whats in a Name