Female Characters

[suse]

i know what a humanoid is, im the one who brought it up... they established that the cultures in stargate were groups of humans who as a result of the gaould were spread thoughtout the galaxy and thus developed their own unique cultures... the PG is far removed from earth, and as far as i know there are no gaould in the PG to have set up human settlements like they did throughout the milky way galaxy... and as such the athosian would be a subset of whatever humanoid species exists in the PG, but not human as we understand human to be...

I thought humans in both galaxies were "seeded" by the Ancients. As if. Though I have to wonder why, it's not like they took an interest...

suse

[jenks]

In case you hadn't noticed your male chauvinism is showing

In case you hadn't noticed your post-modern feminist knee-jerk reaction is showing. You may want to invest in a dictionary too.

[I]What we see here is exactly the type of inherent sexism that is part of the entertainment and advertising industries, the military and today's society in general. It's the reason that I don't think that the Stargate franchise is ever going to start having 'lead' female roles instead of female 'supporting roles' or 'sidekicks?', unless of course there is a radical change in TPTB/writers. In some people, their "facts" about women are so ingrained that they simply can't think outside their limited views and won't treat females on an individual merit basis but have to always put them down to the lowest common denominator with generalisations.

Unfortunately some large portions of the world believe such "facts" and don't hesitate to repeat them categorically as such thereby making them supposedly true because everyone knows it's fact. What is interesting is that usually some one, like Jenks did, will make a categoric statement like Women are weaker than men; no qualifications, it's a fact Then someone will tackle them about the validity of such broad statements and sometimes they'll back off a little and say that they really meant in general, then if they get cornered with some hard to beat facts they'll try and do something like pit a tiny woman against a really large man and when the man wins then of course that proves that "all women" are weaker. Of course they are usually speechless when presented with a real life example of a small woman beating a larger man. But at the end of it they'll still keep repeating their "facts" despite contrary evidence.

I'm pretty sure it was obvious that I was making a general statement, so much so that someone pointed it out.

Teyla kicking butt isn't ridiculous, for with skilled martial artists brute strength isn't how they kick butt. I personally know that I can lift more weight and do more reps on the weight circuit at the gym than a few of the men there and I know one woman who can do the same for more than half of the men. Based on limited study it appears that Kilo for kilo males have more muscle mass than females however most studies are only done on tiny samples of people and little or no study has been done on the differences in muscle mass across the female gender. Very limited studies have been done comparing female body builders and untrained males and have found that relatively speaking (taking body weight into account) there was no difference in strength.

Um, how is this relevant when we're not talking about people of the same size?

So your categoric "fact" that women are weaker than men doesn't seem to be all that absolutely true now does it? Nor is it impossible for a small woman to beat a larger man in a fight, so it appears that your opinion of Teyla kicking butt being ridiculous doesn't hold much weight when held up to examination.

It's not about Teyla being able to beat up some random guy, we're talking about trained fighters twice her size. If we were talking about her beating up someone her size then fair enough or even someone untrained and larger, but we're not, we've seen her going toe to toe with Wraith with superhuman strength, she also knocked Ronon clean out for crying out loud. I mean come on, that's just silly.

[Stewart5]

Teyla could probably simply glare menacingly at Rodney or Woolsey and they'd cower and run away.

ah, but my little sister could glare menacingly at Rodney or Woolsey and they'd cower and run away.

[JanSam]

It's not about Teyla being able to beat up some random guy, we're talking about trained fighters twice her size. If we were talking about her beating up someone her size then fair enough or even someone untrained and larger, but we're not, we've seen her going toe to toe with Wraith with superhuman strength, she also knocked Ronon clean out for crying out loud. I mean come on, that's just silly.

Ok I'm just curious Jenks, how do you view the fight in Emancipation between Carter and Turghan?

Shepard vs the wraith?

Shepard vs Ronan?

Fights between Sheppard and many opponents just seemed too far fetch to me (and don't get me started about ((I think it was RoX's example)) of Mitchell and the replicator in AoT) but to make the "hero" win you had to suspend belief. How is this any different than Teyla?

Just to clarify....I'm not saying Teyla couldn't be capable as I was taught in my self defense class that size did not matter when you knew how to defend yourself and to go after the opponent's weakness.

[Stewart5]

Just to clarify....I'm not saying Teyla couldn't be capable as I was taught in my self defense class that size did not matter when you knew how to defend yourself and to go after the opponent's weakness.

Which if u took self defence lessons u should know is a lie. Size IS important. It's a defining aspect of a fight. All it means is if sumone if bigger/nasteir, u use THEIR weight against them.
But size always matters in a fight. Even if it's a big clumsy guy, if u go in with the wrong attitude, then ur going to get a clout as u get cocky.

And in Wraith fights u don't see too many uses of weight by Teyla. She just betas them ragged by punches and kicks. Which Sheppard can't.

And that Traveller wuman seems to be trained well, but she get's handed her arse fighting wraith.
They need some continuity, or else once again it will just seem like they write the part's of women to fit into the scenario instead of giving them a defined role that doesn't change every few eps.

[jenks]

Ok I'm just curious Jenks, how do you view the fight in Emancipation between Carter and Turghan?

Shepard vs the wraith?

Shepard vs Ronan?

Fights between Sheppard and many opponents just seemed too far fetch to me (and don't get me started about ((I think it was RoX's example)) of Mitchell and the replicator in AoT) but to make the "hero" win you had to suspend belief. How is this any different than Teyla?

Just to clarify....I'm not saying Teyla couldn't be capable as I was taught in my self defense class that size did not matter when you knew how to defend yourself and to go after the opponent's weakness.

It's not. In fact I'm pretty sure I've mentioned many times how ridiculous some of the fights have been, especially how Teal'c can throw Goa'uld around like rag dolls these days yet he was visibly weaker originally. I don't think the writers have been sexist in all this though, if anything they've made an effort to make women kick-ass no matter how ridiculous it may seem. They did it well with Vala, that was the sort of fighting style that you could believe would be effective regardless of size, but with the Teyla fights they end up being battles of strength, which just seems ridiculous when you look at the size of her.

[JanSam]

Which if u took self defence lessons u should know is a lie. Size IS important. It's a defining aspect of a fight. All it means is if sumone if bigger/nasteir, u use THEIR weight against them.
But size always matters in a fight. Even if it's a big clumsy guy, if u go in with the wrong attitude, then ur going to get a clout as u get cocky.

And in Wraith fights u don't see too many uses of weight by Teyla. She just betas them ragged by punches and kicks. Which Sheppard can't.

And that Traveller wuman seems to be trained well, but she get's handed her arse fighting wraith.
They need some continuity, or else once again it will just seem like they write the part's of women to fit into the scenario instead of giving them a defined role that doesn't change every few eps.

It wasn't a lie....she clarified it by stating just what you did. They might be bigger but other factors could be used against them. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Stewart5]

It wasn't a lie....she clarified it by stating just what you did. They might be bigger but other factors could be used against them. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

But in that case she contradicted herself. Maybe it was just a simple miswording, but size is NEVER irrelevant. It's always a factor.

[JanSam]

And in Wraith fights u don't see too many uses of weight by Teyla. She just betas them ragged by punches and kicks. Which Sheppard can't.

And that Traveller wuman seems to be trained well, but she get's handed her arse fighting wraith.
They need some continuity, or else once again it will just seem like they write the part's of women to fit into the scenario instead of giving them a defined role that doesn't change every few eps.

It's not. In fact I'm pretty sure I've mentioned many times how ridiculous some of the fights have been, especially how Teal'c can throw Goa'uld around like rag dolls these days yet he was visibly weaker originally. I don't think the writers have been sexist in all this though, if anything they've made an effort to make women kick-ass no matter how ridiculous it may seem. They did it well with Vala, that was the sort of fighting style that you could believe would be effective regardless of size, but with the Teyla fights they end up being battles of strength, which just seems ridiculous when you look at the size of her.

Ok so is it fair to say that what you found silly wasn't the fact that smaller women are weaker and unable to win against larger opponents but the way the fights were portrayed was silly? I can agree with that. I believe your statement just riled us up in that it was silly for Teyla's fights but not for Sheppard (ie for woman fighting vs. the men's fighting larger/stronger opponents.)

[Stewart5]

Ok so is it fair to say that what you found silly wasn't the fact that smaller women are weaker and unable to win against larger opponents but the way the fights were portrayed was silly? I can agree with that. I believe your statement just riled us up in that it was silly for Teyla's fights but not for Sheppard (ie for woman fighting vs. the men's fighting larger/stronger opponents.)

Not at all! I don't think it's silly to have the ladies fight. But when, like Jenks said, Teyla's fights devolved form the awesome martial arts she demonstartes vs Marines into simple punch-ups versus physically stronger opponents, instead of using those techniques, it's daft. Little more than poor banter.

[jenks]

Ok so is it fair to say that what you found silly wasn't the fact that smaller women are weaker and unable to win against larger opponents but the way the fights were portrayed was silly? I can agree with that. I believe your statement just riled us up in that it was silly for Teyla's fights but not for Sheppard (ie for woman fighting vs. the men's fighting larger/stronger opponents.)

Not really, it's a bit of both. It's not just that they were daft, I think the fact that she's small and skinny makes it even worse. Would be silly with Shep too, but less so in my opinion.

[jckfan55]

I would agree that in a "punch up" as someone put it, Teyla pound for pound would be weaker than a big hulking guy. That's why she uses martial arts techniques that can use her size and speed. I know I read in the early days that they said they capitalized on RL's dance background to help her learn the choreography of the fights.

[Stewart5]

Not really, it's a bit of both. It's not just that they were daft, I think the fact that she's small and skinny makes it even worse. Would be silly with Shep too, but less so in my opinion.

I don't agree, because by that definition, then no one whose not built like a tank should ever try and fight back.

And btw, my Corporal is only 5'8" tops, about eight stone, and I am 5'11", almost thirteen, play american football and am a rock climbing instructor. Oh, and am trianing under this corporal. And he will kill me anytime. So why is it hard for a woman with the right training to do the same to a larger opponent IF SHE USES HER TECHNIQUES. I agree, skinny Teyla hooking a wraith/badguy and downing them, not a chance. Using weight as a lever to flip and disable them

[jenks]

I don't agree, because by that definition, then no one whose not built like a tank should ever try and fight back.

And btw, my Corporal is only 5'8" tops, about eight stone, and I am 5'11", almost thirteen, play american football and am a rock climbing instructor. Oh, and am trianing under this corporal. And he will kill me anytime. So why is it hard for a woman with the right training to do the same to a larger opponent IF SHE USES HER TECHNIQUES. I agree, skinny Teyla hooking a wraith/badguy and downing them, not a chance. Using weight as a lever to flip and disable them

But we're not just talking about random big guys, we're talking about Ronon, and Wraith with supposed super human strength.

[Stewart5]

But we're not just talking about random big guys, we're talking about Ronon, and Wraith with supposed super human strength.

And a could guarentee that I could bench-press more than the corp. But he is TOUGH, durable and would use my own weight and strength agianst me. I agree, Teyla punching a wraith and winning? No. Using his attack against him, aye.