Female Characters

[PG15]

They weren't using her because they had the excuse of Teyla being pregnant. If the reason was that she was always off to search for the Athosians, then why don't the rest of her team go with her?

[Linda06]

They weren't using her because they had the excuse of Teyla being pregnant. If the reason was that she was always off to search for the Athosians, then why don't the rest of her team go with her?

Wasn't TPTB originally going to make Teyla darker in S4 before they found out about the pregnancy? If so she could have gone of on her own looking for vengeance against Michael after what he done to Teyla's people. I mean she was missing quite a lot in S4 so it wouldn't have made that much a difference if they come up with a different story for her....That didn't involve the pregnancy

[suse]

They weren't using her because they had the excuse of Teyla being pregnant. If the reason was that she was always off to search for the Athosians, then why don't the rest of her team go with her?

Because the writers would have chosen to not write it that way?

Because the team had other things to do? Because Teyla (could have) refused to let the search of the Athosians go? As written, the team didn't search for the Ashosians - a team member's people - to the exclusion of all else. Because other things were happening in the galaxy (and it would be boring to focus only on the search) they *couldn't*. All they had to do was write Teyla as going off in search of her people by herself. I'd think it reasonable. Considering how little she was used, they could have used the cameo thing that you mentioned for Sam and she'd have had about the same amount of time.

suse

[Spirit]

Sorry, I know you guys moved beyond this subject but since I finally have time to come back I'd like to come back to it

I think it does matter that they were replaced by other women. Because stuff happens and people need to be replaced. I think it's fallacious to say "they only used Ivanova in 88/120 episodes' when the reason she wasn't used was because the actress left. I thought it was important to note that in all but Tasha Yar/Denise Crosby's cases, that the character was replaced by another woman.

And just because the characters weren't in every season, they are no less main cast.

I agree and yes it does matter, definitely. But I believe you're going into another discussion. The point I was making is that they need to shuffle up the gender characters. There is no reason why they should continue to make male the predominant characters on every single shows; i.e. the # ratio I've compared with Star Trek/Stargate/Babylon.

I understand many have stated that because it's a military operation or that SciFi is majority male fans so therefore... And I'm certain you said you did not agree with most of those statements either. Which is why I suggested that as much as it may seem normal and so-to-speak 'make sense,' I prefer to have a mixture of both. Let there sometimes be more female and sometimes more male or both.

OT:

Spoiler:

Using the (mentioned below) Ivanova application, all things being equal, Daniel Jackson/Michael Shanks might not be considered main cast on SG-1 because he was not there except for a few guest eps in S6. Which is spurious, imo. Yeah, he was there a majority of the time, but not all.

I'll have to disagree on this.. as much as Michael Shanks wasn't there on every single episodes but he was very much there, like you said, 'majority of the time,' he was very much considered part of the 'main cast.' I take into consideration of the amt of episodes a character have been there.

Okay, I went back and read what you wrote. You did say what you mentioned above about an all woman show, then backed it by a fallacious statement that threw me off track. Then you pointed out percentages - except they weren't percentages - of women on sci-fi.

Which statement was fallacious? I admit that I stated the ratios rather than percentage, my mistake on that part. But I thought the point was still quite clear if not VERY clear.

I'd still say, I'm personally okay with all women crew or majority women crew. It would be a nice change and something different. But do I want all womens crew ALL the time? No. And I still don't think it's 'going too far' because you have SciFi shows that are majority male characters and I don't hear people say that's 'going too far' (not saying you do) so the same should apply for female characters.

I guess considering the piss-poor job the entertainment industry has done with shows that are predominately women - without making the men less than equals (imo) - I don't think it would be a good idea.

If they continue to hire writers who can't seems to bring out female characters then yea, it probably wouldn't be a good idea. But I don't think it's a reason to not try and beat the odds. It has to start somewhere.

I'd assume they wanted to take the easy way out, if not 'domination'. I'm not quite sure how you are using that word.

I used the word 'dominantion' as a reference to some of the members comments. If it were to be the other way around...

Originally Posted by Spirit
And again, IMO, if they were to cast an all men crew, no one would really assume that they want a male dominantion. So why can't people desire for an all female crew or majority female crew without people's assumpt of them being a feminist or desiring for a female domination?

My assumption in regards to the article mentioned seemed pretty clear to me, considering the site and the links. Sure, I might have been wrong. But I seriously doubt it.

I believe we've both come to an understanding on this part.

How was I supposed to know that your focus was on that narrow view? That forces the numbers to say what you want them to. I'd call 88/110 a majority - Ivanova was there 4 out of 5 seasons. Why point out that she missed eps then?

How was it narrow? I thought it was pretty clear. I admit that I didn't watch every single episodes of Star Trek, Stargate or Babylon so I apologize if I missed one or two character (hmm) but all of the #'s are taken off of several website references listed under main cast. And I also considered the amt of episodes they've been in. Regardless tho, if you were to count all the co-main cast and extras and etc, there are STILL more male characters overall.

Frankly, I don't care if there are more men than women. As long as the women are written well and not discriminated against in their jobs because they are women. Yeah, I'd like the percentage to be larger and think it could be. But... <<shrug>> It'll come.

That's good, that's your choice. But I believe people should care. I think because people rarely speaks up against the obvious signs of imbalance, it just kind of remain that way. I think it'll come too but not if no one say or does anything about it.

Btw, you're right and I don't think anyone should be written in a way that they're discriminated against, rather it is in show biz or regular 8-5 jobs.

[PG15]

I still don't think it's that easy; it's all in the details; but I sure as hell am not going to try to spin out another story. My hands still hurt from yesterday.

[suse]

I still don't think it's that easy; it's all in the details; but I sure as hell am not going to try to spin out another story. My hands still hurt from yesterday.

It's never easy. I just wanted to point out that they had options that were workable, that didn't require using the pregnancy. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

Obviously, I think their lack of attention to details (among other things) is what the problem was.

suse

[Spirit]

I still don't think it's that easy; it's all in the details; but I sure as hell am not going to try to spin out another story. My hands still hurt from yesterday.

what are you referring to?

[suse]

what are you referring to?

My most recent reply to him on the previous page.

suse

[Linda06]

I still don't think it's that easy; it's all in the details; but I sure as hell am not going to try to spin out another story. My hands still hurt from yesterday.

aww poor you *maasages PG15's hands*

It's never easy. I just wanted to point out that they had options that were workable, that didn't require using the pregnancy. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

Obviously, I think their lack of attention to details (among other things) is what the problem was.

suse

They made a great job of the pregnancy storyline, didn't they

[PG15]

It's never easy. I just wanted to point out that they had options that were workable, that didn't require using the pregnancy. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

Obviously, I think their lack of attention to details (among other things) is what the problem was.

suse

Well that, or they just thought that including the pregnancy was a good idea, and accommodating for Rachel.

You gotta admit, she did get more screentime than usual in the episodes where she appeared. As far as I can remember, they shot the episodes out of sequence. It was Spoils of War (quite a bit of Teyla time) ---> Quarantine (less Teyla time, but the time was used for development) ---> The Kindred 2-parter (Part 1 had a lot of Teyla stuff; part 2 less so, but still) ---> opening scene of Midway. From there on, Rachel went on her maternity leave and all the Teyla-less episodes were shot.

Whether you liked the development or not is obviously up to you, but you can't ignore the fact that she got stuff to do.

Hey, that rhymes!

[Falcon Horus]

They weren't using her because they had the excuse of Teyla being pregnant. If the reason was that she was always off to search for the Athosians, then why don't the rest of her team go with her?

Why should they? She does have a mind of her own and they don't have any say over her, do they? She chose to join them because she believed they were the answer to the Wraith's reign, and they could fight them with equal power.

Teyla was never used in the potential she had. It would have made it easier even, they wouldn't have had to write her at all this way. Just snippets here and there. How much easier can you make it, if not to dispatch your characters on a quest. Let the others mention her here and there and easypeasy.

It would have fit right into their agenda.

Though I doubt you'll read this since I apparently reside on your ignore-list. At least you're kind enough to let me know.

what are you referring to?

To the part where Rachel's pregnancy could have been ignored and not be written in as Teyla's pregnany. Hide it through the act of having Teyla go off-world to search for her people.

[Spirit]

She has the authority to administer the base and the scientists , not command the military contingent. If I Remember Correctly. Not the same. And - in the in-universe story - the theory was that the Atlantis expedition would be peaceful, so a military commander/administrator wasn't needed. Oops.

As far as I remember, when Sheppard joined he said "that means I answer to Weir, right?' It may not make sense realistically speaking for a civilian leader to give orders to a military personnel but from my impression it seems that way. Yes, not only did she 'administer' the base and the scientists, she seems to have also gave 'orders?' to military personnel, as far as I remember.

Wasn't there also several incidences where she went off world and she was in command? If I remember correctedly.

Oh, they knew women would be watching. They even counted on them following RDA. It was within a few years of MacGyver wrapping, he was a well-known commodity.

I agree... Altho MacGyver was quite a big thing for not just female but I'm pretty sure they put that into consideration

I didn't mind her being a 'not the leader' because she wasn't ready. And Jack was. But she was a leader in S8 - yet was deemed unworthy in S9 - for whatever reason, because behind-the-scenes manueverings have a direct impact with what we see on-screen. In the end, it doesn't matter. Imo THAT was inherent bias, where ever it came from, whether it was purposeful or not.

Well, to be fair, Sam's character wasn't all that much aimed towards 'leadership' types of traits. I personally didn't feel it fitted her all that well to be in similar place as RDA but I think that's only because it's how her character was written. Afterall she was still a subordinate to RDA... But if they intended and wanted Sam to take over RDA's command, they would have put in the effort to script her accordingly. So she'll fit more into that position in her own way.

I wish we had had more of Teyla being a leader, not just hearing that she was the leader of her people - even though she wasn't *there* to lead.

I agree. I mean they made it pretty convincing that Teyla was willing to abandon her people for the greater good of doing something for her people. It make sense but at the same time if she was such a strong leader to begin with, why not continue with that trait? But instead she became less and less and more and more into the background.

[suse]

I agree and yes it does matter, definitely. But I believe you're going into another discussion. The point I was making is that they need to shuffle up the gender characters. There is no reason why they should continue to make male the predominant characters on every single shows; i.e. the # ratio I've compared with Star Trek/Stargate/Babylon.

I understand many have stated that because it's a military operation or that SciFi is majority male fans so therefore... And I'm certain you said you did not agree with most of those statements either. Which is why I suggested that as much as it may seem normal and so-to-speak 'make sense,' I prefer to have a mixture of both. Let there sometimes be more female and sometimes more male or both.

I wouldn't mind a mixture.

Expanounding on/explaining my position isn't necessarily going into another discussion. It's explaining so you can understand where I'm coming from. Otherwise, the comments feel like random statements.

I'll have to disagree on this.. as much as Michael Shanks wasn't there on every single episodes but he was very much there, like you said, 'majority of the time,' he was very much considered part of the 'main cast.' I take into consideration of the amt of episodes a character have been there.

I think where we're having a disagreement in this case is I consider the contribution of a character by season, and you do by the entirety of the series.

Which statement was fallacious? I admit that I stated the ratios rather than percentage, my mistake on that part. But I thought the point was still quite clear if not VERY clear.

The part about all male shows. Then you used what were patently *not* all male shows to prove your point. Later yout position changed to male majority. Not the same.

I'd still say, I'm personally okay with all women crew or majority women crew. It would be a nice change and something different. But do I want all womens crew ALL the time? No. And I still don't think it's 'going too far' because you have SciFi shows that are majority male characters and I don't hear people say that's 'going too far' (not saying you do) so the same should apply for female characters.

<sigh> Most of my "going to far" statement applied to the article that touched off this discussion. And to be honest, at this time I feel that an all female crew (by 'crew', I'm assuming you mean 'show', is this right?) would just be a "Lookie! All girls!" show. Should I feel that way? Probably not. I'm a bit jaded at this point.

If they continue to hire writers who can't seems to bring out female characters then yea, it probably wouldn't be a good idea. But I don't think it's a reason to not try and beat the odds. It has to start somewhere.

This is true.

I used the word 'dominantion' as a reference to some of the members comments. If it were to be the other way around...

How was it narrow? I thought it was pretty clear. I admit that I didn't watch every single episodes of Star Trek, Stargate or Babylon so I apologize if I missed one or two character (hmm) but all of the #'s are taken off of several website references listed under main cast. And I also considered the amt of episodes they've been in. Regardless tho, if you were to count all the co-main cast and extras and etc, there are STILL more male characters overall.

What does this have to do with females leading?


Never mind. I'm done with this discussion. We can't even understand how we tabulate numbers.

suse

[PG15]

Why should they? She does have a mind of her own and they don't have any say over her, do they? She chose to join them because she believed they were the answer to the Wraith's reign, and they could fight them with equal power.

Well...they're her friends. Wouldn't they help if they could?

Anyways, despite my searing hand (ok, not really; it's perfectly fine now, thanks to Linda. ), I'm gonna try to come up with something. It's actually easier than I thought. Haha.

Everything up to BAMSR can be kept the same with minor changes to snip out the pregnancy thing.

Spoils of War: The writers have killed off Wraith many times, so I think they can figure out a way to do it without using Teyla's mind control powers (which only got that strong because of the baby).

Quarantine: Leave as is, but shoot around Rachel's stomach (and snip out all the stuff about the baby). It shouldn't be too hard, since she was behind a desk for most of the episode anyway.

Harmony: Leave as is.

Outcast: The team is going to go track a lead on the Athosians, but when Shep is told of his dad's demise, he decides to go to Earth. McKay chooses to help Teyla (instead of his other excuse in the actual episode), while Ronon thinks that he's better used comforting Shep.

Trio: Leave as is.

Midway: Problematic. The team minus Ronon is pretty relaxed at the beginning so why wouldn't they go with Teyla to search out another lead (if that's why she's out of this episode)? I suppose you can say that Teyla declines Shep's help because she thinks it's best if he tries to help Ronon with his interview, and she refuses McKay's help because he's helped a lot as is, or he's busy with an Ancient device or whatever. She goes off to look around with Lorne. The rest of the episode happens as is, except that Teyla is captured by Michael in this episode because...just because.

The Kindred: completely changed since Mikey wanted Teyla's baby and he doesn't exist here so, I don't know. Maybe he wants to turn her into a Hybrid or something. Maybe her gift can take the place of the baby's hybrid-ness, I don't know. Whatever it is, the experiment can involve a mass of machines or tendils covering her stomach. It's complicated.

The Last Man: Leave as is with minor tweaks to get rid of the pregnancy.

I guess that kinda works. I don't know.

Ow, my hand hurts again.

Teyla was never used in the potential she had. It would have made it easier even, they wouldn't have had to write her at all this way. Just snippets here and there. How much easier can you make it, if not to dispatch your characters on a quest. Let the others mention her here and there and easypeasy.

It would have fit right into their agenda.

Then their actions disprove your assertion of what their agenda is. Big surprise, eh? And here I thought you could read their minds.

Geez, they don't WANT to decrease Teyla's screentime; why would they? That's just a lame conspiracy theory. The writers aren't sitting back and cackling madly while torturing fans with their stories.

Though I doubt you'll read this since I apparently reside on your ignore-list. At least you're kind enough to let me know.

I read every post that interests me.

I use the ignore function for something else.

[suse]

As far as I remember, when Sheppard joined he said "that means I answer to Weir, right?' It may not make sense realistically speaking for a civilian leader to give orders to a military personnel but from my impression it seems that way. Yes, not only did she 'administer' the base and the scientists, she seems to have also gave 'orders?' to military personnel, as far as I remember.

Apparently she could order the military around when they weren't in a potential combat situation. Would make sense - if any of it made sense - that she could administer them on Atlantis.

Well, to be fair, Sam's character wasn't all that much aimed towards 'leadership' types of traits. I personally didn't feel it fitted her all that well to be in similar place as RDA but I think that's only because it's how her character was written. Afterall she was still a subordinate to RDA... But if they intended and wanted Sam to take over RDA's command, they would have put in the effort to script her accordingly. So she'll fit more into that position in her own way.

What they intended and what they did were 2 different things then. Was she or was she not the leader of SG-1 in S8?

I agree. I mean they made it pretty convincing that Teyla was willing to abandon her people for the greater good of doing something for her people. It make sense but at the same time if she was such a strong leader to begin with, why not continue with that trait? But instead she became less and less and more and more into the background.

Because the show became more and more Shep and/or McKay focused and "the little brunette' was pushed aside in favor of 6'4" and testosterone.

suse