Female Characters

[suse]

LOL, I like your updated "Location", suse!

I'd have to agree. Sometimes I feel like we're talking in circles.

Let's see, an on topic new comment.

I think, for me, the first time I got a bit of a sinking "uh oh" feeling was when Anise was introduced. Before her there was not, to my recollection, any female character who so fulfilled a bunch of cliches and stereotypes as her.

There are multiple reasons that's my new location.

Anise was forced upon them by Showtime or MGM, can't remember which. This was about the time 7 of 9 showed up on Voyager and some of the suits thought a similar type would help ratings. I remember one of tptb at Bridge being mighty pleased the fans didn't like her, that we had taste and intelligence. How things changed...

suse

[suse]

What RealmOfX talked about, with the inexperience thing, leading to the total downfall of my idea of a Major Cam leading SG1.

Did you think it was something...nefarious?

No, I just didn't know what you were referring to. I think your Major Mitchell idea has merit. Too much use of Sam, you're right, but I think it's bettermore in line with previous canon than what we got.

suse

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by Vladius
I was talking to the rubber duck person.

No, I don't think that's what happened.

Vladius could you please at least attempt to refer to me politely by either linking to my post or using my GW name.

Wow...I just got back on the forum..skem thru 8 pages worth of why or why not talks..phew! makes my head spins.. But I'm sorry, this one cracks me up.. Ur Rubber Duck is quite cute

So, I just have one comment before I go back to my world.

If it was Mitchell's command and he could have anyone he wanted, why did he chooses to bring back the old team?

It still doesn't make any sense to me why he wouldn't. I'm sure rather he qualifies for the leadership position or not is all very debatable since we all have our own pov. But seriously? He could have chooses anyone he wanted? I'm sorry, but that would NOT be SG1 anymore !_!

[RealmOfX]

<snip>
They allowed a Captain to lead the flagship team. Because she was in second-in-command and the leader couldn't. Not so different to the ideas put forth that Major Mitchell could lead what was not expected to be a vitally important mission.

This is probably the only part of your post I'll disagree with. To me it's a vast difference, Spirits was what? midway through S2? So by that time Sam (and the team) got 18 solid months of experience and learning under her belt and had managed to distinguish herself (& the team) on several occasions racking up at least one commendation & one medal (for saving Earth). That 18 months forged a cohesive and experienced team who knew and trusted each other and worked extremely well together. Mitchell had no experience and no qualifications (no, I don't subscribe to that attempt at retconning him to Special Forces in S10, I can tell a joke when I hear one ). There's no comparing Mitchell leading the team and Sam leading it as a Captain. In Sam's case she has experience, trust and a well oiled team work ethic going. In Mitchell's case he has no experience, no qualifications (he's a pilot coming off extended medical leave FCOL) and the team haven't worked together before - recipe for disaster.

Wow...I just got back on the forum..skem thru 8 pages worth of why or why not talks..phew! makes my head spins.. But I'm sorry, this one cracks me up.. Ur Rubber Duck is quite cute

So, I just have one comment before I go back to my world.

If it was Mitchell's command and he could have anyone he wanted, why did he chooses to bring back the old team?

It still doesn't make any sense to me why he wouldn't. I'm sure rather he qualifies for the leadership position or not is all very debatable since we all have our own pov. But seriously? He could have chooses anyone he wanted? I'm sorry, but that would NOT be SG1 anymore !_!

Actually my avatar is a Blind Old Duck but very cute!

Wasn't Mitchell only given a choice of those officers in the files? Anyway it was the height of arrogance for him to ask Teal'c (one of the new leaders of the Free Jaffa) to come back but words escape me (I started at insulting and worked down from there) to describe his total disregard for Sam's career in wanting her on his team. Professional it wasn't.

What were those writers thinking? Is their inherent sexism so bad that they see nothing wrong with shuffling the woman out of the leader position to make way for an inexperienced and unqualified male? And I feel this is a valid question because they seemed so surprised when some people started complaining very loudly about it (anyone remember that "people with issues" guff?). If it had of been a single isolated incident, I wouldn't necessarily put it down to sexism (though I would have considered it as a possibility) but looking at the sum of the changes to the series since the advent of RCC as showrunner it's actually my primary suspect as a root cause.

[Stewart5]

may i just point out that you havent given any reasons why you think that AT doesnt have screen presence except for the fact that shes a women...

i think helen is great, and has so much potential... she is 157 years old, and in this time she has seen and been shaped by alot... there are a variety of characters that she gets to explore different levels with... she is a mother to ashley, a mentor to will, and she is split between the person that druid was, is and could be, there is alot of history between them... these are just some of the things that make helen an interesting, strong character with great potential...

And there u go, potential. Which is what I said.
And I said I DON'T KNOW WHY.....but I guessed it was maybe the way she was written.
Helen just doesn't seem to have the presence that male characters do. Not becuase she's a women, but I think because of the way women are written in these shos. Stoopid skiffy

may i just point out that on page 33 i gave an alternate scenario that not only explained ATs absence but also brought mitchell onto the team, while leaving sam as the team leader... ive reposted it below...

now here is an alternate scenario... sam is on holiday leave visting cassie [a story AT always wanted to revisit after janet died]... she gets back and through a conversation with daniel and tealc we learn where she has been and how cassie is doing [closure to a stroy left hanging]... the three of them then go to a meeting where they are introduced to mitchell, the new guy who has been transferred to sg1 to make them a team of four again... he is enthusiastic, hes read all the reports and cant wait to learn from the flagship team... this explains why sam wasnt in six episodes, while allowing her to continue in the role of leader of sg1, something they established in s8...

Basically a bunch of cameos for 5 eps then, mitchell's story arc happening later, without any value to it as he is subordinate, and 5 eps or thumb twiddling.........

[katjoy]

And there u go, potential. Which is what I said.
And I said I DON'T KNOW WHY.....but I guessed it was maybe the way she was written.
Helen just doesn't seem to have the presence that male characters do. Not becuase she's a women, but I think because of the way women are written in these shos. Stoopid skiffy

ok, you believe its the way women are written... so what is it about the way helen is written that doesnt give her the same presence as a male lead...

Basically a bunch of cameos for 5 eps then, mitchell's story arc happening later, without any value to it as he is subordinate, and 5 eps or thumb twiddling.........

i know i didnt fill in the blanks, but that was because the example was ment as a way of showing that there was another way to explain sams absence, that there was another way of bringing in mitchell without having him as the team leader... this has since been discussed further and episodes have been elaborated on and tweaked by others, there have also been other examples given...

but the point was it was possible to introduce mitchell while keeping sam as the lead of sg1...

[Linda06]

IIRC those eps covered a relatively short period of time, not months.

Whether or not Teyla was pregnant was immaterial. The writers used Rachel's pregnancy, but they didn't have to. They could have shot around it, had they so desired. They did for the Teyla/Keller in the woods ep. She was showing then. Teyla's pregnancy kept her out of stories *while* she was around. Sam wasn't around. It was more equal to when Teyla was kidnapped. Teyla's pregnancy ended up with her disappearing because she was kidnapped. Yes, because she was pregnant, but really, are you saying she *couldn't* have been kidnapped if she had not been pregnant? Michael could just has easily have been written as kidnapping her because if her Wraith genetic make-up.

And oh how I so wished they never used her pregnancy in the show It was the beginning of the end for Teyla as a character

[Rac80]

And oh how I so wished they never used her pregnancy in the show It was the beginning of the end for Teyla as a character

I must agree with you there, but then they had slowly been decreasing Teyla's role with the elevation of their "drama queen" to the center of the show.

I too wanted Sam to take over as team leader, and katjoy's scenario is one that would have worked well.

it always seemed to me that TPTB had some great female characters and then didn't kow what to do with them.

[Skydiver]

MOD HAT ON

Let's stop with the personal comments please. enough of the 'you people' 'those fans' etc.

Speak your opinion about the TOPIC, not each other

[Skydiver]

The only question is whether they'd allow a major to lead the flagship team. Military buffs, help me out here. Can it happen?

Major Cam Mitchell would have made sense. He'd be the green guy that came in, got command, then had to choose, keep command of his own team when Carter came back, or give up command to 'learn from the best'.

but, if they did that then the new lead male of the show would be answering to a woman, and apparantly they didn't want that to happen, thus lt colonel mitchell co-leading the team

they wanted to have thier cake and eat it too, have the young and enthusiastic new guy PLUS have him be the boss ordering around (or attempting to) people with ten times his experience.

Dismiss my opinion all you want, but I cannot find another reason to put the inexperienced new character in command of the more experienced old hands beyond catering to the gender of said new guy in preference over the gender of the existing commander of the team

[Skydiver]

There are multiple reasons that's my new location.

Anise was forced upon them by Showtime or MGM, can't remember which. This was about the time 7 of 9 showed up on Voyager and some of the suits thought a similar type would help ratings. I remember one of tptb at Bridge being mighty pleased the fans didn't like her, that we had taste and intelligence. How things changed...

suse

anise was hank cohen's idea. thus the 'this show needs a sexy alien' 'joke' in 200

And oh how I so wished they never used her pregnancy in the show It was the beginning of the end for Teyla as a character

the potential of what happened to teyla is why AT refused to allow her pregnancy to be in the show. At one con years before, when fans asked her about a family (trifle personal but whatever) she said something along the line of 'sam is too active and too much a part of the show to hide a pregnancy easily and i'm afraid of what the writers would do if we wrote it into the show'

[Stewart5]

ok, you believe its the way women are written... so what is it about the way helen is written that doesnt give her the same presence as a male lead...

i don't know what it is. She just strike up the same love of lead character ur meant to get.
And that's not cause she's a woman. i just don't get the love. I mean, I don't love Sheppard as much as other characters, and he's a guy, so that's not it. I just can't like the character....

i know i didnt fill in the blanks, but that was because the example was ment as a way of showing that there was another way to explain sams absence, that there was another way of bringing in mitchell without having him as the team leader... this has since been discussed further and episodes have been elaborated on and tweaked by others, there have also been other examples given...

but the point was it was possible to introduce mitchell while keeping sam as the lead of sg1...

In that case i apologise if my reply was tetchy

Major Cam Mitchell would have made sense. He'd be the green guy that came in, got command, then had to choose, keep command of his own team when Carter came back, or give up command to 'learn from the best'.

but, if they did that then the new lead male of the show would be answering to a woman, and apparantly they didn't want that to happen, thus lt colonel mitchell co-leading the team

they wanted to have thier cake and eat it too, have the young and enthusiastic new guy PLUS have him be the boss ordering around (or attempting to) people with ten times his experience.

Dismiss my opinion all you want, but I cannot find another reason to put the inexperienced new character in command of the more experienced old hands beyond catering to the gender of said new guy in preference over the gender of the existing commander of the team

I concur

[suse]

This is probably the only part of your post I'll disagree with. To me it's a vast difference, Spirits was what? midway through S2? So by that time Sam (and the team) got 18 solid months of experience and learning under her belt and had managed to distinguish herself (& the team) on several occasions racking up at least one commendation & one medal (for saving Earth). That 18 months forged a cohesive and experienced team who knew and trusted each other and worked extremely well together. Mitchell had no experience and no qualifications (no, I don't subscribe to that attempt at retconning him to Special Forces in S10, I can tell a joke when I hear one ). There's no comparing Mitchell leading the team and Sam leading it as a Captain. In Sam's case she has experience, trust and a well oiled team work ethic going. In Mitchell's case he has no experience, no qualifications (he's a pilot coming off extended medical leave FCOL) and the team haven't worked together before - recipe for disaster.

Oops. That's what I get for not thinking about the ramifications first. I guess my point was that Sam led a mission of the flagship team as a Captain. And Majors were used, as PG-15 noted, as leaders of other teams. Kawolski, Feretti, Lorne* ... oh, I just rememba Majoered, even as the lead of SGA's primary team. Anyway, using 2IC in a temporary, step up to the plate, mission while the team leader is unavailable is not totally unprecedented. I was still thinking about how much more sense it would have made had the writers had added Mitchell as 2IC off-screen and they had had a few months of missions first. It's not like there isn't precedent, not that precedent is needed in 'fun' S9 for them not showing every mission SG-1 has.

* Kawolski, Feretti and even Sheppard were thrown in because there was just no one of any rank with training. Lorne had more training - he'd been assigned to Stargate Command so at least him being a permanent leader as a Major made sense.

Wasn't Mitchell only given a choice of those officers in the files? Anyway it was the height of arrogance for him to ask Teal'c (one of the new leaders of the Free Jaffa) to come back but words escape me (I started at insulting and worked down from there) to describe his total disregard for Sam's career in wanting her on his team. Professional it wasn't.

But, but, that interview sequence was hilarious! /sarcasm.

Sam *had* to show she was okay with him leading, that he was a good guy for this to work. Obviously, it didn't for all. They had so show that she would have no problem working under him.

I guess getting the band back together shows his leadership abilities.

suse

[PG15]

And oh how I so wished they never used her pregnancy in the show It was the beginning of the end for Teyla as a character

Considering how big she got by "Midway", I don't think hiding it would've worked

AT's different; by the end of the season, she wasn't nearly as big.

[Falcon Horus]

Considering how big she got by "Midway", I don't think hiding it would've worked

They weren't using her in any sort of important capacity, they could have easily have Teyla go off-world for a while to search for the Athosians, and they still could have had her kidnapped by Michael. Easypeasy <Snipped by Moderator>