General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Killdeer]

I've always thought that the scene in Jolinar's Memories was a nice moment of Daniel checking on Sam, asking if she's okay, and sort of offering to let her talk about stuff. It always struck me as a nice moment between them where he shows his concern, and she opens up a little.

He also brings her flowers at the end of In the Line of Duty. That could be more from the team as a whole, I suppose. He also tried to visit her in the infirmary in Broca Divide... before Jack kicks the stuffing out of him. Those are the only examples that come to mind at the moment, however.

He also checks on her in Singularity - seems very concerned for how she's handling the whole thing with Cassie. There's not a lot post S3 though that I can remember (take into consideration I can't even remember Metamorphosis at the moment). However, that's one of my bigger gripes with the S/J ship. I really enjoyed the friendship that Sam and Daniel had in the first three seasons. When they started pushing S/J in S4, it always seemed to me like that started breaking down. You see glimpses of it in later seasons, but it was never as strong as it was in the first three IMO.

[Callista]

All right. Daughter is in bed and now I can't remember what else I was going to say. I'll probably remember tomorrow.

I guess what I'm missing after the S/J ship becomes apparent is the kind of group worry/comfort that we used to have like Sam and Jack both being so upset when they realize they left Daniel behind in 'Fire and Water' and they both are equally upset about it and comfort each other. Or when Teal'c is missing in....uh....the one before 'Threshold' I think and all three of them are equally worried about him. Or when Jack and Sam are missing in 'Solitudes' and Teal'c and Daniel comfort each other.

It just makes me think of Rothman in 'Crystal Skull' saying: "Hey! Daniel is my friend, too, you know!" because they're acting like he doesn't care as much as they do that Daniel's missing. I just feel like saying "Hey! Jack is Teal'c's friend, too! Hey! Sam is Daniel's friend, too!" because just like Killdeer mentioned, it seems like we don't get to see that anymore.

[Melora]

I guess what I was trying to say is that I think it has more to do with Sam being a woman and the guys being “guys,” than it does with the S/J ship.

There were plenty of moments where all of the team members showed concern for one another post-Season 4. In fact, there are too many for me to list. Perhaps it’s because the moments between Sam and Jack have such negative connotations for you (general) that it makes them seem more prominent than the other moments between the other team members?

It’s almost as if some are saying that any and all moments of concern between Sam and Jack after Season 4 take away from the team. Why is it so wrong for Sam and Jack to worry and care about each other when they noticeably worry and care about Daniel and Teal’c too? Add to that the fact that Daniel and Teal’c are shown to worry and care about each other, as well as Sam and Jack in various moments post-Season 4. Is it only acceptable for Sam and Jack to comfort each other or be comforted when they are worried about Daniel or Teal'c?

I also find it confusing that people say that the team (with the exception of Sam and Jack) didn’t demonstrate feelings or concern for each other as much in Seasons 4-8. I certainly saw the exact opposite. I also saw a complete deterioration of the friendships between Sam, Teal’c, and Daniel in Seasons 9+10 – seasons where there was little to no ship and Jack wasn’t even around. To me, Sam and Cam (and Cam and Teal'c) acted more like friends than the original three team members. Then again, I am someone who believes that everyone sees a different show, even when they watch the very same episodes.

Case in point - Broca Divide, Jolinar’s Memories, In the Line of Duty all had nice moments where Daniel showed concern for Sam, but I do not really consider his actions as being designed to comfort her. They are more the actions of a concerned colleague - what anyone would do for a colleague he or she liked. Sam was always more demonstrative about her feelings of concern, care, and friendship for Daniel over the years (all the way to Fallen, Icon, and Threads), which again goes back to the whole point I was making - that Sam was allowed to show more emotion and feelings for her teammates because she was a woman.

[Petra]

Thanks, Kat for coming in to clear some things up. I was under the impression that it was against forum rules to quote someone from another thread without their permission.

I was under the impression that since you guys (in general) prefered to discuss things here instead of on your thread I had your permission to quote you. Of course I realise now it was wrong of me to assume that without double checking, so again, my apologies.

Anyway, thanks aga for contacting me and offering to remove comments. If you hadn't PM'd me, I probably wouldn't have known that my comments were cross-posted (I don't always check back to threads where I post, especially if RL is busy... which it currently is). So thanks for letting me know and asking.

I'm glad we cleared it up.

Um... I never said that. At least, not precisely. As shippers are not a homogeneous group, neither are those who dislike a particular ship.

Okay, I stand corrected.

Again, those who dislike a particular ship are not a homogeneous group. I do not classify myself as a slasher. I never said anything about Jack and Daniel, nor implied that it was more favorable to block them together. IMHO, the early seasons contained more variety. Sometimes they blocked Jack and Daniel, but sometimes they blocked Sam and Daniel, Jack and Teal'c, Daniel and Teal'c... I especially think of season 3, which I think was particularly strong in providing a variety of blocking techniques (I seem to recall briefing scenes where the directors varied who sat next to each other. Now, it's been a while since I last watched all of season 3, and I don't have a numbered list of who sat where and when. Nor do I feel the need to create one at this exact point in time. This is just based on my impressions from when I've watched the earlier seasons). So, for me, that's why the change was so noticeable, and that's why I felt it served to disrupt the team a bit more. And yes, that's just my opinion.

I probably should have worded my post better, because you misunderstood me. I was talking about the original poster who brought up the whole issue of blocking; as far as I know she's a bit of a slasher and she said that it was Daniel and Jack at the beginning. That's why I asked why it was ok for J/D to be blocked together but not J/S.
I never intended to imply you're a slasher, we all know you're a team girl.
I won't argue the point because as I said earlier I've never noticed any changes in blocking and it's never bothered me one way or another.

Okay, again, I don't think I ever said any of that. Maybe you're combining opinions that you've heard from various people? I never said that Pete was perfect, or that the situation wasn't written badly. IMO, it was written badly. But that's because they needed a reason for Pete to find out about the SGC, so they created a completely contrived and somewhat silly way of going about it. IMHO. I don't think Pete's actions in the last half of Chimera make any sense and I think they conflict with the way they wrote his character in general. Which I believe was mostly because it was a contrived way of forcing Sam to tell him about the SGC. Again, just my opinion. If you think that's a double-standard... well, I can't change your mind on that. But I don't see anything hypocritical about it. I accept that TPTB made multiple writing choices that I find poorly written, for various reasons.

You didn't say that, as I said I was talking about the antishippers in general, not you in particular.

And I agree that it was bad writing to get Pete to find out about the SGC. But firstly, the fact that he had to know doesn't excuse the poor way it was done. Heck, they could have gotten Sam involved with someone who already knew about the project, agent Barrett for example. Secondly, I still don't understand why Sam's siginficant other had to know about it in the first place. People at the SGC in majority have families and somehow I doubt their families know about everything.

Honestly, I don't have time to go provide a list of examples for my opinion at this point in time. And I don't really think that this point is relevant to this thread... which, incidentally, is why I didn't post it here.

Well i think it is relevant, since it affects Sam and Jack's relationship and people's perception of it.

Okay.... this right here is actually the whole reason that I decided not to ask that my comments be deleted, because I feel like I need to respond to this. No, you cannot tell me that there was no team in seasons 9 and 10. You can say that you did not see any team in seasons 9 and 10, or that you didn't see a team dynamic. That's your opinion, and I respect your right to have that opinion. But it is not a fact. Your opinion does not make mine invalid. I acknowledged that other fans disagree with me, but because I did see a team in S9/10 means that it's a matter of interpretation. And you cannot state that my opinion is wrong. That's why I worded that statement the way I did.

I know it's off topic, so just a few words to clarify: it was supposed to be a joke, that's why I put "". I meant people can say to you "there was no team" but it doesn't mean they are right (myself included) or that you should listen to them.

the only thing that changes about this discussion are the ppl.

Well, at least we are still discussing which means it's still kind of a hot topic, even after all those years..

Great discussion on giving/receiving comfort I agree with Melora on this one.

[Khentkawes]

I probably should have worded my post better, because you misunderstood me. I was talking about the original poster who brought up the whole issue of blocking; as far as I know she's a bit of a slasher and she said that it was Daniel and Jack at the beginning. That's why I asked why it was ok for J/D to be blocked together but not J/S.
I never intended to imply you're a slasher, we all know you're a team girl.
I won't argue the point because as I said earlier I've never noticed any changes in blocking and it's never bothered me one way or another.

No, I know you were referring to the original poster from the other thread. But I wanted to clarify that I couldn't speak to that, since I never claimed anything of the sort. Maybe some viewers see it as a change from blocking J/D to blocking J/S... But I see it as a change from blocking various characters, to primarily blocking S/J. Of course, if you see it differently, then you're right... no big deal. Different perceptions, etc.

You didn't say that, as I said I was talking about the antishippers in general, not you in particular.

And I agree that it was bad writing to get Pete to find out about the SGC. But firstly, the fact that he had to know doesn't excuse the poor way it was done. Heck, they could have gotten Sam involved with someone who already knew about the project, agent Barrett for example. Secondly, I still don't understand why Sam's siginficant other had to know about it in the first place. People at the SGC in majority have families and somehow I doubt their families know about everything.

Well, I think it would be tough to develop any real relationship if Sam's significant other didn't know about the SGC. All that secrecy would make for a weird relationship IMO. Yes, other people have relationships, but those are off-screen. They happen in reality with people in the military, but I think that kind of thing would be difficult to portray on screen... especially for a character like Sam who is so invested in her work. So I assume that's why the writers wanted Pete to find out about it. It solved some of their writing difficulties.

But I actually would have preferred Barrett, to be honest. I could see some potential there.

I know it's off topic, so just a few words to clarify: it was supposed to be a joke, that's why I put "". I meant people can say to you "there was no team" but it doesn't mean they are right (myself included) or that you should listen to them.

Ah! That explains it. Though in retrospect, I probably should have known it was a joke. Oh well, sorry if I overreacted a bit to that part.

[Callista]

I guess what I was trying to say is that I think it has more to do with Sam being a woman and the guys being “guys,” than it does with the S/J ship.

I agree that in some instances Sam gets the comfort or seems to need the comfort more than the guys. For instance, after 'In the Line of Duty' Sam is understandably upset because she's been violated and the others are kind of walking on eggshells around her. Contrast that with Daniel getting raped by Hathor, the same kind of creature that has also been violating his wife and brother-in-law, and Jack just says: "Ewww!". (A similar case might be Jack and Kynthia.) In those cases, I definitely think there is gender bias going on. (In those cases it's to the detriment of the guys....Sam's is the only one of the three that I thought was an acceptable reaction on the part of the rest of the group to what had happened.)
But, again, those aren't really examples of what I was talking about because they aren't examples of giving comfort to someone who is worrying about someone else. (And I'm so vain I'm taking it as you talking to me....which maybe you weren't )

There were plenty of moments where all of the team members showed concern for one another post-Season 4. In fact, there are too many for me to list. Perhaps it’s because the moments between Sam and Jack have such negative connotations for you (general) that it makes them seem more prominent than the other moments between the other team members?

It’s almost as if some are saying that any and all moments of concern between Sam and Jack after Season 4 take away from the team. Why is it so wrong for Sam and Jack to worry and care about each other when they noticeably worry and care about Daniel and Teal’c too? Add to that the fact that Daniel and Teal’c are shown to worry and care about each other, as well as Sam and Jack in various moments post-Season 4. Is it only acceptable for Sam and Jack to comfort each other or be comforted when they are worried about Daniel or Teal'c?

ETA: Despite what I said in the post above: (That's what I get for trying to post after nearly falling asleep reading Harry Potter to my daughter.)

I agree that there are still scenes where they are worrying/comforting each other over Daniel or Teal'c like 'Lifeboat', 'Orpheus', 'Avatar', and 'The Quest'. In all four of those, I see the people who aren't in danger worrying about the one who is. In the first three of those I see the rest of the team as having equal levels of concern and I see no indication that any of them think one would care more than the other two. In the fourth (The Quest) Vala starts acting as if she thinks the others don't care as much as she does and the others tell her that that is not the case at all...they are just as concerned about Daniel but they are also professionals and are working through their concern in a less emotive way than she is.

What I have been saying is not that I don't want Sam and Jack to show concern for each other, it is that I don't want Daniel and Teal'c's concern for them to be diminished because Jack cares more than they do about Sam or that Sam cares more than they do about Jack. And that is what I see in 'Paradise Lost' and 'Grace'. Where the other examples given show the whole team worried in an equal way (given their different personalities) and comforting and accepting comfort from each other on an equal footing, I see the 'PL' and 'Grace' examples as only providing comfort to the "safe" half of the pairing without that person acknowledging that the others care just as much.

The one example I can think of of Jack or Sam being the one in trouble where I didn't get that feeling after season four is 'Death Knell'. In that one the three guys seem to be equally worried about her and Daniel and Teal'c don't act like Jack's feelings need to be placed above their own.

I also find it confusing that people say that the team (with the exception of Sam and Jack) didn’t demonstrate feelings or concern for each other as much in Seasons 4-8. I certainly saw the exact opposite. I also saw a complete deterioration of the friendships between Sam, Teal’c, and Daniel in Seasons 9+10 – seasons where there was little to no ship and Jack wasn’t even around. To me, Sam and Cam (and Cam and Teal'c) acted more like friends than the original three team members. Then again, I am someone who believes that everyone sees a different show, even when they watch the very same episodes.

Actually, I think there is some ship here, it's just shifted over to Daniel and Vala instead of Jack and Sam. If you look at it in this manner, maybe you can understand better what I'm talking about in seasons four through eight. I think that what I see happening to the team in those seasons may be similar to what you see happening to the team in seasons nine and ten for perhaps similar reasons, just with a different pairing in the focus. (Of course, I can't read your mind so perhaps I'm way off on that. Maybe, though, you can see my point of view a little better if you compare the two couples and how the dynamic of the rest of the group gets shifted.)

For the record, I'm not a fan of D/V either. As I've said before, it didn't bother me as much, but I think that's mainly because it didn't last as long and because Vala wasn't a friend of anyone else's on the team at the beginning...she was brought in specifically by Daniel so they weren't on equal footing to begin with.

ETA: To clarify, I'm not a fan of the S/J or D/V romantic relationships. I am a fan of both of their friendship relationships as well as any other combination of friendship relationships between the main characters. I really like episodes where the friendship between any two of the characters is high-lighted as long as every group gets their turn, as it were, throughout the series.

In both of those pairings, I would so much have preferred to see the dynamics played out in regards to the mentor-type role that Jack had with Sam and Daniel had with Vala. I was very disappointed in both instances that instead of showing the more experienced person (Jack in the military and Daniel in ethics) helping the other to grow to the point where they are true equals, they had to go for romance. (That's not to say that Sam and Vala didn't get there by the end of the series in Sam's case and by the end of Continuum in Vala's, because I think they did. It's just that it was somewhat tainted for me by the 'ship'.)

Now that I think about it, this is another point of gender bias because I can't think of any instances in this show where the mentor is female and the student is male....but then that's probably for another thread.

Case in point - Broca Divide, Jolinar’s Memories, In the Line of Duty all had nice moments where Daniel showed concern for Sam, but I do not really consider his actions as being designed to comfort her. They are more the actions of a concerned colleague - what anyone would do for a colleague he or she liked. Sam was always more demonstrative about her feelings of concern, care, and friendship for Daniel over the years (all the way to Fallen, Icon, and Threads), which again goes back to the whole point I was making - that Sam was allowed to show more emotion and feelings for her teammates because she was a woman.

These are back to the other 'category' as was discussed at the beginning of this post. And, again, I agree with you that gender comes into play in these instances.

[welshgater]

Hi!
My friend star_climber made a community on Live Journal for John/Larrin.
I'm a maintainer, please visit & join if you're a shipper or just like the characters
John/Larrin_Community

[Melora]

I agree that in some instances Sam gets the comfort or seems to need the comfort more than the guys. For instance, after 'In the Line of Duty' Sam is understandably upset because she's been violated and the others are kind of walking on eggshells around her. Contrast that with Daniel getting raped by Hathor, the same kind of creature that has also been violating his wife and brother-in-law, and Jack just says: "Ewww!". (A similar case might be Jack and Kynthia.) In those cases, I definitely think there is gender bias going on. (In those cases it's to the detriment of the guys....Sam's is the only one of the three that I thought was an acceptable reaction on the part of the rest of the group to what had happened.)
But, again, those aren't really examples of what I was talking about because they aren't examples of giving comfort to someone who is worrying about someone else. (And I'm so vain I'm taking it as you talking to me....which maybe you weren't )

I was just taking a point that you made and others commented on and offering up another way of seeing the issue. I was talking to you, but also to anyone who wanted to discuss (so I hope you didn't think I was singling you out or picking on you, b/c that was not my intention ).

ETA: Despite what I said in the post above: (That's what I get for trying to post after nearly falling asleep reading Harry Potter to my daughter.)

I agree that there are still scenes where they are worrying/comforting each other over Daniel or Teal'c like 'Lifeboat', 'Orpheus', 'Avatar', and 'The Quest'. In all four of those, I see the people who aren't in danger worrying about the one who is. In the first three of those I see the rest of the team as having equal levels of concern and I see no indication that any of them think one would care more than the other two. In the fourth (The Quest) Vala starts acting as if she thinks the others don't care as much as she does and the others tell her that that is not the case at all...they are just as concerned about Daniel but they are also professionals and are working through their concern in a less emotive way than she is.

What I have been saying is not that I don't want Sam and Jack to show concern for each other, it is that I don't want Daniel and Teal'c's concern for them to be diminished because Jack cares more than they do about Sam or that Sam cares more than they do about Jack. And that is what I see in 'Paradise Lost' and 'Grace'. Where the other examples given show the whole team worried in an equal way (given their different personalities) and comforting and accepting comfort from each other on an equal footing, I see the 'PL' and 'Grace' examples as only providing comfort to the "safe" half of the pairing without that person acknowledging that the others care just as much.

The one example I can think of of Jack or Sam being the one in trouble where I didn't get that feeling after season four is 'Death Knell'. In that one the three guys seem to be equally worried about her and Daniel and Teal'c don't act like Jack's feelings need to be placed above their own.

I do get what you are saying here and I agree to a certain extent. I don't think there would have been the locker room scene in "Grace" had it not been for the ship. But that's one rather minor scene and what made it strange was Teal'c trying to get Jack to open up, which was out of character for Teal'c. Jack's reaction, like I mentioned before, was similar to how he reacted to Daniel's disappearance in Icon or Threads.

As for PL, we'll just have to disagree on that one. I see the locker room scene as Teal'c comforting Sam over both Daniel and Jack - and I see it as Teal'c receiving just as much comfort in return. It's a lovely moment between the two characters that shows how much they care for each other as much as it shows Sam's concern over Jack.

Then again, there were times Sam showed grief/concern for Daniel and tried to approach Jack to comfort and/or grieve with him. His unwillingness to deal with Daniel's ascension in "Revelations" comes to mind. In the same ep, it is ultimately Teal'c and Sam who comfort one another.

Actually, I think there is some ship here, it's just shifted over to Daniel and Vala instead of Jack and Sam. If you look at it in this manner, maybe you can understand better what I'm talking about in seasons four through eight. I think that what I see happening to the team in those seasons may be similar to what you see happening to the team in seasons nine and ten for perhaps similar reasons, just with a different pairing in the focus. (Of course, I can't read your mind so perhaps I'm way off on that. Maybe, though, you can see my point of view a little better if you compare the two couples and how the dynamic of the rest of the group gets shifted.)

For the record, I'm not a fan of D/V either. As I've said before, it didn't bother me as much, but I think that's mainly because it didn't last as long and because Vala wasn't a friend of anyone else's on the team at the beginning...she was brought in specifically by Daniel so they weren't on equal footing to begin with.

While I don’t care for D/V ship, but that has more to do with how both acted around each other and the infamous scene in “Unending.” So while I cannot claim to be a D/V shipper, I don’t blame the lack of team feeling in Seasons 9-10 on that ship in particular. Vala wasn’t really there much in Season 9 and that’s where I saw the lack of friendship moments between the original three begin. It wasn’t because of D/V ship, it was because TPTB focused so much on their new story arc and the new characters that they neglected the older ones (esp. Sam and Teal’c). It was like Daniel, Sam, and Teal’c were practically strangers who just happened to work together. And that was the way I felt both when Vala was and was not there, so the D/V ship wasn’t the culprit for me.

There were nice friendship moments between Sam and Cam, Teal’c and Cam, Daniel and Vala, Sam and Vala, Teal’c and Vala. But there were very few moments where we actually got a reminder of how much Daniel, Teal’c, and Sam had been through together and what they meant to each other. So instead of blaming the D/V ship, I blame it on TPTB's obsession with the Ori and the new characters (some of whom I did like I want to add).

So I really can’t compare the way anti-shippers feel about S/J with the way I feel about D/V in this instance. The only thing I know is that I never once felt that Daniel, Jack, Sam, and Teal’c didn’t truly care or worry about each other in Seasons 1-8. In Season 9-10, I never really felt that Sam, Daniel, and Teal’c really cared deeply about one another - except perhaps Teal'c's response to seeing Sam alive in Ethon and him comforting her after Landry's death in "Unending."

ETA: To clarify, I'm not a fan of the S/J or D/V romantic relationships. I am a fan of both of their friendship relationships as well as any other combination of friendship relationships between the main characters. I really like episodes where the friendship between any two of the characters is high-lighted as long as every group gets their turn, as it were, throughout the series.

In both of those pairings, I would so much have preferred to see the dynamics played out in regards to the mentor-type role that Jack had with Sam and Daniel had with Vala. I was very disappointed in both instances that instead of showing the more experienced person (Jack in the military and Daniel in ethics) helping the other to grow to the point where they are true equals, they had to go for romance. (That's not to say that Sam and Vala didn't get there by the end of the series in Sam's case and by the end of Continuum in Vala's, because I think they did. It's just that it was somewhat tainted for me by the 'ship'.)

Now that I think about it, this is another point of gender bias because I can't think of any instances in this show where the mentor is female and the student is male....but then that's probably for another thread.

These are back to the other 'category' as was discussed at the beginning of this post. And, again, I agree with you that gender comes into play in these instances.

I agree with you on the gender biases in regards to mentor/subordinate. That's one reason that I do not like Jack/Sam portrayed as experienced mentor/inexperienced subordinate who must learn from him. I like that Jack has feelings for Sam b/c it changes the power dynamic between them and makes both characters much more interesting to me. The woman as subordinate has been done to death and reminds me painfully of the historical relationship between the genders where the man is the one in power and the woman is just there to do his bidding (Sam as 'Girl Friday').

That kind of relationship might have made sense in Season 1, but to have Jack still see Sam just as his inexperienced subordinate after a year or two would have been rather illogical to me. But then again, I see Sam and Jack as equals in everything but rank fairly early on in the series (around late Season 2, IMO). I see a deep respect that grew into something more. I guess if you see the two as not being equals (in everything including rank), it would seem like Jack was taking advantage of Sam.

Which brings me to another question that is not directed at you, Callista, but to any anti-shipper who cares to answer:

Why is it that the S/J ship destroys the Sam character for so many anti-shippers but the Jack character is given a free pass? No matter how hard you (general) try, you have to admit that Jack was portrayed to have some sort of romantic feelings for Sam. So why is it okay for him to "care about her more than he's supposed to" and not for her to have any sort of feelings for him?

[Killdeer]

Why is it that the S/J ship destroys the Sam character for so many anti-shippers but the Jack character is given a free pass? No matter how hard you (general) try, you have to admit that Jack was portrayed to have some sort of romantic feelings for Sam. So why is it okay for him to "care about her more than he's supposed to" and not for her to have any sort of feelings for him?

Well, a couple of comments - first, for myself personally, the S/J ship was just as damaging ultimately to Jack as it was to Sam - I lost a lot of respect for both characters because of it. In fact, it may have in the end been worse for Jack, because I can go back and view the early seasons, and enjoy Sam still in those seasons, while I've found to my surprise that my enjoyment of Jack in those seasons has been tainted (although that could also have something to do with my frustration with RDA's portrayal of Jack in the last couple of seasons he was on the show). So for myself, no, it wasn't ok for him anymore than it was ok for her.

However....while I think the writers intended to portray that Jack has some sort of romantic feelings for Sam, I think most of the burden of portrayal fell on her shoulders. It actually ties in perfectly with what you all were talking about before, about Sam being "the girl" and getting the more emotional scenes. So I think her feelings came across stronger to the audience than Jack's did, and well, personally, the way RDA chose to play that, so stoically, it was hard to buy into any deep emotions on his part, while Amanda played her part more obviously emotionally.

I agree with you on the gender biases in regards to mentor/subordinate. That's one reason that I do not like Jack/Sam portrayed as experienced mentor/inexperienced subordinate who must learn from him. I like that Jack has feelings for Sam b/c it changes the power dynamic between them and makes both characters much more interesting to me. The woman as subordinate has been done to death and reminds me painfully of the historical relationship between the genders where the man is the one in power and the woman is just there to do his bidding (Sam as 'Girl Friday').

That kind of relationship might have made sense in Season 1, but to have Jack still see Sam just as his inexperienced subordinate after a year or two would have been rather illogical to me. But then again, I see Sam and Jack as equals in everything but rank fairly early on in the series (around late Season 2, IMO). I see a deep respect that grew into something more. I guess if you see the two as not being equals (in everything including rank), it would seem like Jack was taking advantage of Sam.

Yes. Well, no. Not exactly. I don't see Jack taking advantage of Sam, because he never initiated anything in the relationship - that was always left up to Sam. But I still feel like it was inappropriate, and it makes me respect him less that he had this "thing" for his female subordinate all these years. And no, I've never seen them as equals. Historical portrayals notwithstanding, to me, canonically, that's just how it was. He WAS her boss. They WERE "experienced mentor/inexperienced subordinate". And I can't just erase that from my mind and pretend that he didn't have the power to give her orders. And that power dynamic completely taints any possible relationship they could have - because he was her boss, it gives the entire relationship power overtones that, well, to be frank, creep me out a little bit. I'm not saying that's how it is in actuality, or that Jack would ever abuse his power - it's just for me something I can't get away from. It's not just this show - I've had the same reaction to boss/employee relationships on other shows as well.

EDIT: Just to be clear, Melora, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you seeing it the way you do. I'm just explaining why I can't see it that way. I didn't want it to sound like I was attacking your POV.

[Khentkawes]

As for PL, we'll just have to disagree on that one. I see the locker room scene as Teal'c comforting Sam over both Daniel and Jack - and I see it as Teal'c receiving just as much comfort in return. It's a lovely moment between the two characters that shows how much they care for each other as much as it shows Sam's concern over Jack.

Then again, there were times Sam showed grief/concern for Daniel and tried to approach Jack to comfort and/or grieve with him. His unwillingness to deal with Daniel's ascension in "Revelations" comes to mind. In the same ep, it is ultimately Teal'c and Sam who comfort one another.

I can agree with that. The scene in PL... while I think it was meant to be shippy, I can easily see it as team friendship precisely because Sam does mention Jack's disappearance and Daniel's death. And I think you make a good point in mentioning Revelations. We've already seen Sam mourn for Daniel and go to Teal'c for comfort, so it makes sense that Teal'c and Sam would comfort each other again.

Which brings me to another question that is not directed at you, Callista, but to any anti-shipper who cares to answer:

Why is it that the S/J ship destroys the Sam character for so many anti-shippers but the Jack character is given a free pass? No matter how hard you (general) try, you have to admit that Jack was portrayed to have some sort of romantic feelings for Sam. So why is it okay for him to "care about her more than he's supposed to" and not for her to have any sort of feelings for him?

IMO, it's not okay.

Whoever said Jack got a free pass? I personally think the way that the ship was handled made him look spineless and unprofessional. But obviously that's just me.

With that said, this topic did come up on the non-shipper thread, and my opinion on it (I won't presume to speak on behalf of anyone else) is that Sam gets a bit more criticism because she is more often the one who talks about ship. Or in other words, "shippy" scenes often have a greater focus on Sam. So it's just easier to talk about her behavior. Think of the scenes in Lost City or Threads. Sam goes to see Jack. She's the one who takes action. Even in D&C, Sam has to prompt Jack to say anything. Sam takes the initiative, and more often than not, she does the talking. So the focus of discussions often shifts to Sam rather than Jack, because (again IMO), more of the shippy lines come out of her mouth.

With that said... I'm not sure that I see any romantic feelings from Jack. But it is clear to me that he was aware of Sam's feelings for him... which is where the spineless and unprofessional thing comes in. I think that if he had handled it professionally, he would have talked to Sam, explained how he felt (one way or the other), and they would have decided how to handle it in a way that would not affect the job (if that meant either one or both of them retiring to be together, or one of them transferring to another team, or if it meant deciding that they should not get together... whatever). IMO, they should have addressed it and done something. And as CO, it was Jack's responsibility to see that her/his/their feelings didn't interfere with work. But he failed to address the situation directly, as far as I can tell. So IMO, Jack did not come off in a good light.

EDIT: I agree with Killdeer. Especially in regards to Sam/AT getting the emotional scenes because she's "the girl." As Melora pointed out earlier, gender biases are a big issue in this whole topic, because TV shows often play into stereotypes, whether or not those stereotypes are healthy or accurate.

[Killdeer]

Whoever said Jack got a free pass? I personally think the way that the ship was handled made him look spineless and unprofessional. But obviously that's just me.

Not just you.

[Melora]

Well, a couple of comments - first, for myself personally, the S/J ship was just as damaging ultimately to Jack as it was to Sam - I lost a lot of respect for both characters because of it. In fact, it may have in the end been worse for Jack, because I can go back and view the early seasons, and enjoy Sam still in those seasons, while I've found to my surprise that my enjoyment of Jack in those seasons has been tainted (although that could also have something to do with my frustration with RDA's portrayal of Jack in the last couple of seasons he was on the show). So for myself, no, it wasn't ok for him anymore than it was ok for her.

However....while I think the writers intended to portray that Jack has some sort of romantic feelings for Sam, I think most of the burden of portrayal fell on her shoulders. It actually ties in perfectly with what you all were talking about before, about Sam being "the girl" and getting the more emotional scenes. So I think her feelings came across stronger to the audience than Jack's did, and well, personally, the way RDA chose to play that, so stoically, it was hard to buy into any deep emotions on his part, while Amanda played her part more obviously emotionally.

Yes. Well, no. Not exactly. I don't see Jack taking advantage of Sam, because he never initiated anything in the relationship - that was always left up to Sam. But I still feel like it was inappropriate, and it makes me respect him less that he had this "thing" for his female subordinate all these years. And no, I've never seen them as equals. Historical portrayals notwithstanding, to me, canonically, that's just how it was. He WAS her boss. They WERE "experienced mentor/inexperienced subordinate". And I can't just erase that from my mind and pretend that he didn't have the power to give her orders. And that power dynamic completely taints any possible relationship they could have - because he was her boss, it gives the entire relationship power overtones that, well, to be frank, creep me out a little bit. I'm not saying that's how it is in actuality, or that Jack would ever abuse his power - it's just for me something I can't get away from. It's not just this show - I've had the same reaction to boss/employee relationships on other shows as well.

EDIT: Just to be clear, Melora, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you seeing it the way you do. I'm just explaining why I can't see it that way. I didn't want it to sound like I was attacking your POV.

Thanks for answering. I have no problem with people not agreeing with me or having different points of view, as long as their arguments are logical and backed up with reason. And your opinions very much are.

It's good to know that there are at least two anti-shippers who don't place all of the blame on Sam's shoulders. I just tend to read a lot of statements here and there from anti-shippers about how the ship "ruined" the Sam character and it seems she bears the brunt of the ridicule from many people in the anti-shipper side of fandom. I see the ship as such a minor part of both characters that I find it strange that it could completely "ruin" Sam unless you see the ship as the sum total of her character.

I can respect your point of view on the ship. I agree that people in positions of power have a responsibility to the people who work under them. There is a power relationship there b/c Jack is her superior officer. I acknowledge that and I think that if Jack had ever done anything inappropriate with Sam while she was under his command that it would irreparably tarnish the characters in my eyes. But they didn't and that actually makes me like and respect them more. Go figure.

However, I also acknowledge that Jack and Sam are human beings and human beings sometimes have feelings they shouldn't have. It's whether they act on them or not that determines their moral and ethical character IMO - not having the feelings in the first place.

I also think that as human beings that Sam and Jack are equals. If Jack ever tried to abuse his power over Sam, I am quite comfortable believing that Sam would not stand by and take it. She follows orders and she trusts his command, but that is because he has earned her respect and he has never really given her a reason to doubt his judgment (Shades of Grey not withstanding). I also see Jack putting a huge amount of trust in Sam due to his respect for her. So although there is a power relationship there, I personally don't see it as such a huge obstacle to a future relationship when they are no longer boss/employee. To me, Sam has always had just as much power in their relationship as Jack.

[Melora]

I can agree with that. The scene in PL... while I think it was meant to be shippy, I can easily see it as team friendship precisely because Sam does mention Jack's disappearance and Daniel's death. And I think you make a good point in mentioning Revelations. We've already seen Sam mourn for Daniel and go to Teal'c for comfort, so it makes sense that Teal'c and Sam would comfort each other again.

IMO, it's not okay.

Whoever said Jack got a free pass? I personally think the way that the ship was handled made him look spineless and unprofessional. But obviously that's just me.

With that said, this topic did come up on the non-shipper thread, and my opinion on it (I won't presume to speak on behalf of anyone else) is that Sam gets a bit more criticism because she is more often the one who talks about ship. Or in other words, "shippy" scenes often have a greater focus on Sam. So it's just easier to talk about her behavior. Think of the scenes in Lost City or Threads. Sam goes to see Jack. She's the one who takes action. Even in D&C, Sam has to prompt Jack to say anything. Sam takes the initiative, and more often than not, she does the talking. So the focus of discussions often shifts to Sam rather than Jack, because (again IMO), more of the shippy lines come out of her mouth.

With that said... I'm not sure that I see any romantic feelings from Jack. But it is clear to me that he was aware of Sam's feelings for him... which is where the spineless and unprofessional thing comes in. I think that if he had handled it professionally, he would have talked to Sam, explained how he felt (one way or the other), and they would have decided how to handle it in a way that would not affect the job (if that meant either one or both of them retiring to be together, or one of them transferring to another team, or if it meant deciding that they should not get together... whatever). IMO, they should have addressed it and done something. And as CO, it was Jack's responsibility to see that her/his/their feelings didn't interfere with work. But he failed to address the situation directly, as far as I can tell. So IMO, Jack did not come off in a good light.

EDIT: I agree with Killdeer. Especially in regards to Sam/AT getting the emotional scenes because she's "the girl." As Melora pointed out earlier, gender biases are a big issue in this whole topic, because TV shows often play into stereotypes, whether or not those stereotypes are healthy or accurate.

Thanks for answering, Khentkawes.

I agree that gender stereotypes are really at the heart of this issue. It seems we just disagree about how we like those stereotypes to be depicted.

I have to say that I agree about Jack not showing much romantic interest in Sam but I would add - only in Seasons 7-8. In Season 4, Jack was the one who spoke openly about his feelings and acted on them (WoO kiss). Yes, he could have been just joking around with Sam when he kissed her, but what kind of a guy does that make him? To me, a man who kisses a woman as some kind of a joke is not a man who deserves respect. So I tend to think better of Jack and believe he really did have romantic feelings for Sam and kissed her because he knew it was his only chance to do it without jeopardizing Sam's career.

Actually, if you look back at Season 4-6, Sam is very guarded about any potential feelings she has for Jack. She never says she has romantic feelings for him; she never initiates a kiss or even a hug. She even shows some interest in other men (Orlin, Joe Faxon, Corso, Barrett), unlike Jack who doesn't even flirt with another woman until Kerry comes along. So, it really isn't until Season 7 when we actually get a better idea of her feelings for Jack.

But I do agree that they needed to address the issue head-on and deal with it. Although I am a shipper, I would have been happy had TPTB just settled the matter one way or the other. I still feel that way. If TPTB decide to confirm that Sam and Jack are not together in the third movie, I'll be partly disappointed and partly relieved that it is finally settled once and for all.

[Callista]

I also think that as human beings that Sam and Jack are equals. If Jack ever tried to abuse his power over Sam, I am quite comfortable believing that Sam would not stand by and take it. She follows orders and she trusts his command, but that is because he has earned her respect and he has never really given her a reason to doubt his judgment (Shades of Grey not withstanding). I also see Jack putting a huge amount of trust in Sam due to his respect for her. So although there is a power relationship there, I personally don't see it as such a huge obstacle to a future relationship when they are no longer boss/employee. To me, Sam has always had just as much power in their relationship as Jack.

Well, as human beings, I see everyone on the show as equal....even many of the characters in the show that are not human beings! I know that's probably not what you meant, but I'm not sure what you do mean by them being equal as human beings. I don't think Jack tried to abuse his power over Sam and I agree that Sam wouldn't have stood for it if he had.

Actually, I think there are just a couple of instances where he has given her reason to doubt his judgment, but as that has nothing to do with 'ship' I won't talk about that here. Overall, though, yes I think she would trust Jack as a commander just like she would trust Hammond or Reynolds or Dixon or whomever.

I don't agree that she has always had just as much power in their relationship as Jack because she has not always had just as much power in the team as Jack and to me that's where the majority of their relationship is taking place. I'm more flexible that perhaps they have a more equal relationship outside of work, though.

As to who has lost the most respect, I think part of Sam losing respect has to do with Pete rather than with Jack. Personally, I think the whole relationship with Pete was only put in the show because of the relationship with Jack, but as I'm not privy to the thoughts of TPTB, I could be wrong about that. I am another 'anti-shipper' who thinks Jack comes off looking at least as bad as Sam. I think actually worse, because while Sam is somewhat open and honest with her feelings, Jack seems to only acknowledge them in times of crisis and doesn't set her straight one way or the other. He comes off as less honorable to me than before the 'ship'.

I can accept that maybe on a professional level they are equal now, but that's only been since Jack left the show in season nine and that's because I'm not entirely sure about exactly what his position is now in regards to hers.

[Melora]

Well, as human beings, I see everyone on the show as equal....even many of the characters in the show that are not human beings! I know that's probably not what you meant, but I'm not sure what you do mean by them being equal as human beings. I don't think Jack tried to abuse his power over Sam and I agree that Sam wouldn't have stood for it if he had.

Actually, I think there are just a couple of instances where he has given her reason to doubt his judgment, but as that has nothing to do with 'ship' I won't talk about that here. Overall, though, yes I think she would trust Jack as a commander just like she would trust Hammond or Reynolds or Dixon or whomever.

I don't agree that she has always had just as much power in their relationship as Jack because she has not always had just as much power in the team as Jack and to me that's where the majority of their relationship is taking place. I'm more flexible that perhaps they have a more equal relationship outside of work, though.

As to who has lost the most respect, I think part of Sam losing respect has to do with Pete rather than with Jack. Personally, I think the whole relationship with Pete was only put in the show because of the relationship with Jack, but as I'm not privy to the thoughts of TPTB, I could be wrong about that. I am another 'anti-shipper' who thinks Jack comes off looking at least as bad as Sam. I think actually worse, because while Sam is somewhat open and honest with her feelings, Jack seems to only acknowledge them in times of crisis and doesn't set her straight one way or the other. He comes off as less honorable to me than before the 'ship'.

I can accept that maybe on a professional level they are equal now, but that's only been since Jack left the show in season nine and that's because I'm not entirely sure about exactly what his position is now in regards to hers.

Thanks for replying, Callista.

All men people are created equal, huh?

I wasn't really referring to the natural rights of all human beings a la John Locke.

What I meant as being "equal as human beings" is that they are equals mentally and in terms of basic character and personality. Sam is not some weak, fragile person who can be easily taken advantage of. Jack is not some overbearing tyrant who likes to use his power to manipulate or control the people who work for him. They are both for the most part emotionally strong, self-assured, honorable, decent human beings who put the interests of others ahead of their own. As such, they are equals in character IMO.

Having said that, I agree that Sam and Jack were not always equal in their working relationship. I probably should have phrased that better in my previous post. He was technically her boss and he gave her orders. In the beginning, Jack could have gotten Sam transferred, etc. and she knew it. That was a very unequal relationship, even though she could have asked for a transfer or quit if she didn't like how she was being treated. I don't see anything romantic during that time period, however. They were colleagues and friends who possibly shared an attraction to each other.

But as time went on, I see Jack as needing Sam on the team more than she needed him as a commanding officer. There was a power shift there as she needed his guidance less and he relied on her abilities and judgment more and there was almost a partnership between them by Season 5 and 6. Can you see Jack kicking Sam off the team in Season 5 or 6? I can't. And I don't see any romantic feelings between them until that mutual respect was firmly established.

As to the whole Pete thing... it was both for the J/S ship angle, but more b/c AT wanted Sam to have a boyfriend who didn't die and she wanted to explore a different side to Sam. I don't think she necessarily wanted the Pete storyline so tied into the J/S ship, however. That was TPTB's brilliant idea.

I think TPTB could have handled that relationship infinitely better. I don't really blame Sam for what she did to Pete b/c she is human and she does make mistakes (contrary to popular belief). It was better that she dumped him before the wedding than after. Yes, it wasn't the nicest thing to do but would it have been better for her to go through with the wedding and then drag Pete through a divorce?

I think Khentkawes mentioned Barrett as an alternative to Pete for Sam and I heartily agree. The only problem with a relationship between Sam and Barrett is that she would probably have never dumped him.

I could easily see Sam and Barrett living happily ever after.