General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Easter Lily]

I also want to second Madeleine – one of my favorite ships was Zoe/Wash in Firefly. Sci-fi shows rarely have characters that are married and Zoe and Wash’s relationship was just so well-written and acted. I was actually hoping that one of the new characters on Stargate this year would be married. After all, it seems somewhat odd that all of the main characters (who are at least in their mid to late thirties) are not married or in committed relationships of any kind (at least that we know of). But I guess that would be too limiting for TPTB – they need to keep their characters single in case they need to have the guest alien of the week fall in love with one of them.

Good point there, Melora... about the lack of married people on shows like Stargate... which does beg the question as to what they think "ship" means. Because as far as I can tell even with the high divorce rates, most people are in some kind of long-term relationship. From observation, they seem to have a rather narrow view of "ship"... that it is about two single people who may or may not have UST, sparks flying, explosions and then resolution ("happily ever after" or the inevitable break up). Perhaps writers/producers/directors believe that that is what the audience demands so this is the formular that is constantly recyled. This could possibly be why the Wash/Zoe relationship is so beloved... because it doesn't parrot this formula so hence, there is a believability about it. They look and behave like any happily married couple... They don't angst over their relationship, they just accept the comforts of what that relationship brings. Like, many RL couples I know they have their moments of conflict but fundamentally they can get pass that by straightforward communication.

This is why I like the idea of Sheppard/Weir although I don't necessarily know how it would work out or be very confident that TPTB would be able to carry it through. (Although with Carl Binder... ) Apart from the leadership thing that others have indicated, there is the fact that quite a bit of their interaction already has sprinklings of "husband/wife conversation". Torri herself said that it would be near impossible for Weir as CO, to have any relationship with anyone in Atlantis without raising hackles...
The opposites attract thing could apply to Sheppard and Teyla if only they had worked the cross cultural angle in the way that they did with Daniel and Sha're in the film and to a lesser extent in the series. But since they haven't yet, there's a slim-zero chance that they ever will. For Sheppard and Teyla to ever work for me, Sheppard would have to show more interest in not just Teyla herself but in her culture and so far he hasn't been shown to be.

So then how much of RL should television ship reflect or should it just be purely escapist fare? To me, there needs to some degree of believability that somehow these two people could be a pairing.

[Dani347]

As for Farscape, I was a big John/Aeryn shipper but what irked me was the fabricated reasons for their barriers...changing their minds etc...stuff that frankly reminded me of Moonlighting. And too much of that can be tedious. At least with SG-1 the barriers were clear...regulations prohibited them from exploring anything while in the same chain of command...so they put duty and honor above personal gratification, which for me further added depth to their characters but even that can get tedious when it goes on too long and no real definitive resolution is shown onscreen.

Reading this, I see I have the exact opposite reaction. To me, it's irksome to even start a ship with such a huge outside barrier. Again, the dangling carrot thing. I don't think they ever intended it to go anywhere while Jack was on the show. They had the characters say too many times that no matter what, their positions wouldn't allow it. So, you set something up that they would never let be explored completely. Only, for people who don't like the ship, we have to keep watching that blasted carrot keep getting hauled out, again and again, until some anti shippers just wish they would get it over with, and the more militant ones (like me) just see the carrot getting more rotten by the second and can't stand to see it get eaten, even though you know that'll be the end of it. Sorry, I'm drowning in metaphors. Hope my meaning was somewhat clear. And, I can only imagine that shippers keep seeing that blasted carrot hauled out so many times that they start to think that there's a chance, that tptb were just working on a way to get them together at some point without compromising the set boundaries. So, you get this barrier that tptb, imo, were never going to cross, which just made me think, why bother. With Farscape, I found the fact that there wasn't some outside barrier that was absolutely impassible (at least if you don't want to destroy the characters completely) to be better. It also let the characters go farther, in displaying their emotions. There was no, "Crichton has to hold back because he's Aeryn's supervisor, or vice versa" I'd much rather have the obstacle come out of the characters themselves, than their positions.

eta: One thing that would have made the J/S ship more believable to me, was if I felt it wasn't built on types and platitudes. Type: leading man + woman =ship. Platitude: Two people working in dangerous situations for long periods of time would grow to care for each other. Or, opposites attract. If they had shown them bonding over anything that was unique to them. Maybe certain difficulties with being in the military. Even better if the difficulty wasn't related to ship at the beginning. Some thing where they were shown to share some new understanding that helped build up these feelings, I might have believed they exist more.

[SGLAB]

Reading this, I see I have the exact opposite reaction. To me, it's irksome to even start a ship with such a huge outside barrier. Again, the dangling carrot thing. I don't think they ever intended it to go anywhere while Jack was on the show. They had the characters say too many times that no matter what, their positions wouldn't allow it. So, you set something up that they would never let be explored completely. Only, for people who don't like the ship, we have to keep watching that blasted carrot keep getting hauled out, again and again, until some anti shippers just wish they would get it over with, and the more militant ones (like me) just see the carrot getting more rotten by the second and can't stand to see it get eaten, even though you know that'll be the end of it. Sorry, I'm drowning in metaphors. Hope my meaning was somewhat clear. And, I can only imagine that shippers keep seeing that blasted carrot hauled out so many times that they start to think that there's a chance, that tptb were just working on a way to get them together at some point without compromising the set boundaries. So, you get this barrier that tptb, imo, were never going to cross, which just made me think, why bother. With Farscape, I found the fact that there wasn't some outside barrier that was absolutely impassible (at least if you don't want to destroy the characters completely) to be better. It also let the characters go farther, in displaying their emotions. There was no, "Crichton has to hold back because he's Aeryn's supervisor, or vice versa" I'd much rather have the obstacle come out of the characters themselves, than their positions.

Yeah, with J/S the barrier of their respective positions held such a barrier that if they stepped just a little too close to that line it would get all awkward. It never allowed for really even a decent friendship.

eta: One thing that would have made the J/S ship more believable to me, was if I felt it wasn't built on types and platitudes. Type: leading man + woman =ship. Platitude: Two people working in dangerous situations for long periods of time would grow to care for each other. Or, opposites attract. If they had shown them bonding over anything that was unique to them. Maybe certain difficulties with being in the military. Even better if the difficulty wasn't related to ship at the beginning. Some thing where they were shown to share some new understanding that helped build up these feelings, I might have believed they exist more.

I agree that if two characters are shipped for these reasons just for the sake of ship it's terrible. On the show NCIS I was always worried they would ship The character Gibbs with the Character Kate because of the leading man and woman positions. Of course I don't have to worry about that seeing as Kate is no longer there. In the NCIS case it wasn't just leading characters I had trouble with. It was: Late forties to early fifties leading male who was team leader with thirtysomething female subordinate. And I can think of at least three other shows with that scenario.

Although if I see the chemistry and something believable and they just happen to be the leading characters than I'm okay with that.

[Dani347]

Yeah, with J/S the barrier of their respective positions held such a barrier that if they stepped just a little too close to that line it would get all awkward. It never allowed for really even a decent friendship.

I don't even think it had to be that way. I never felt that friendship was forbidden within the confines of the show. The ending of Threads was supposed to be a team/friendship ending. (And, the idea that they thought of that as a team ending speaks to why I hate ship) But, I really can't think of many pure friendship moments between Jack and Sam. I can find lots between Jack and Daniel. I can find moments between Jack and Teal'c, Daniel and Teal'c, Teal'c and Sam. But, the only thing I can think of with Jack and Sam is maybe in Secrets. I liked their interaction there. I really wanted to see them explore Jack mentoring Sam, Sam looking up to him, Sam finding her own way. I think season 8 might have been interesting to see the different way Sam commanded if we saw her learning from Jack, and then bringing her own personality into it. To see how it diverted from Jack's, even in conflict from how Jack might have done things. I'm sure there could be a more complex way to explore that, than I've said here, but it would have been interesting.

In the NCIS case it wasn't just leading characters I had trouble with. It was: Late forties to early fifties leading male who was team leader with thirtysomething female subordinate. And I can think of at least three other shows with that scenario.

Yes, it does get monotonus. I was thinking of why Grey's Anatomy doesn't bother me, although it's similar. One surgeon and a subordinate started an affair. I wasn't a shipper for this couple, despite one of the pairing being played by a favorite pairing of mine, Patrick Dempsey. (Hey, I'm human. I'm not always consistent in my television ethics) But, I liked the way the relationship was written. Because it was messy, it wasn't written as true love, they had a clandestine affair, they got found out, I don't recall if there was an official censure, but it was definitely shown as being not okay. People looked at them differently. The feeling that he might give her special treatment was out there. They broke up for other reasons (return of his wife) but it still explored the repercussions. The show let them get that far, and went through every messy thing it could entail. Actually still going through it. Now, maybe the Stargate PTB feel the story of two people nobly giving up their true love for the greater good year after year makes for better, deeper storytelling. But, when it keeps getting hinted at, I can understand why even some anti-shippers just wished they'd get it over with. Fall, suffer the consequences, work towards getting back into the good graces. Or, more to my liking, if they had to have ship, just mention it once, have them discuss with each other whether or not they could continue working together and not have the feelings interfere with their working relationship or friendship, that they would be able to live full lives without this thing hanging over them, and then live up to it. After awhile, being reminded again and again just how noble Jack and Sam are by sacrificing their "true love" just gets aggravating.

I'm not sure how many contradictions and justifications are in that paragraph above.

[Shipperahoy]

I've been a shipper from the very first episode that I watched but I never was one that wanted a big From Here to Eternity type love story. I liked the subtle looks and insinuations, I found it rather romantic, but as the years passed by the hints became broader and yet went nowhere and I think it bugged both shippers and anti-shippers and then TPTB backed themselves into a corner. It got to the point where shippers were like "Alright already! If they're gonna be together have them be together!" and the antis were like "O.k. this is destroying Sam as a character because she's getting to a point where it's not so subtle and they're having her doing really stupid and out of character things. Gemini anyone? Affinity FCOL?".

For myself, I think it's frustrating and rather cowardly of them to just pretend that they haven't built this relationship, or rather lack of, over the years and gotten people in a lather and then act surprised when people keep asking about it. The responses to ship based questions have been somewhat akin to "Relationship? What relationship?". Personally I think Jack being gone, rather than being a hindrance, is the perfect opportunity for them to resolve the issue once and for all rather than continuing to waffle about. With RDA off the show it give the characters a chance to be together without it being all in your face on the show constantly, which is what a lot of people were concerned with. All they have to do is just drop a line on the show about Sam and Jack and VOILA! They're together and then it doesn't have to be a major issue anymore.

[Uber]

I've been a shipper from the very first episode that I watched but I never was one that wanted a big From Here to Eternity type love story. I liked the subtle looks and insinuations, I found it rather romantic, but as the years passed by the hints became broader and yet went nowhere and I think it bugged both shippers and anti-shippers and then TPTB backed themselves into a corner. It got to the point where shippers were like "Alright already! If they're gonna be together have them be together!" and the antis were like "O.k. this is destroying Sam as a character because she's getting to a point where it's not so subtle and they're having her doing really stupid and out of character things. Gemini anyone? Affinity FCOL?".

For myself, I think it's frustrating and rather cowardly of them to just pretend that they haven't built this relationship, or rather lack of, over the years and gotten people in a lather and then act surprised when people keep asking about it. The responses to ship based questions have been somewhat akin to "Relationship? What relationship?". Personally I think Jack being gone, rather than being a hindrance, is the perfect opportunity for them to resolve the issue once and for all rather than continuing to waffle about. With RDA off the show it give the characters a chance to be together without it being all in your face on the show constantly, which is what a lot of people were concerned with. All they have to do is just drop a line on the show about Sam and Jack and VOILA! They're together and then it doesn't have to be a major issue anymore.

Bingo.

[Dani347]

Disclaimer: I don't know anything for a fact, since I'm not in the heads of tptb, but that doesn't stop me from speculating. Here's my theory. As long as the show was on and Jack and Sam were on the show together, ship was never going to go anywhere. It was a will they/won't they, except without the will. A lot of shows do that, drag out the ship until it gets annoying, until in some cases it becomes almost all the show is about (I'm thinking Lorelai/Luke on Gilmore Girls) which is really annoying as someone who isn't a shipper for that ship. But, they think it keeps things interesting.

However, I don't think that tptb would consider a shippy conclusion worth it with Jack gone. Because, I think that if they could have had the big shippy ending of the series, with both of them there, the huge obstacle gone - Earth is safe, either Jack or Sam could decide that they no longer wanted a military career, or even one of them transfering to another team (well, before the changes came with Jack being general) and it could end in a big way. I believe some of them are shippers themselves. But, I think now, from their perspective, it's why bother? Instead of having a watered down diluted version, just don't do it.

I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

[scjon]

I've been a shipper from the very first episode that I watched but I never was one that wanted a big From Here to Eternity type love story. I liked the subtle looks and insinuations, I found it rather romantic, but as the years passed by the hints became broader and yet went nowhere and I think it bugged both shippers and anti-shippers and then TPTB backed themselves into a corner. It got to the point where shippers were like "Alright already! If they're gonna be together have them be together!" and the antis were like "O.k. this is destroying Sam as a character because she's getting to a point where it's not so subtle and they're having her doing really stupid and out of character things. Gemini anyone? Affinity FCOL?".

For myself, I think it's frustrating and rather cowardly of them to just pretend that they haven't built this relationship, or rather lack of, over the years and gotten people in a lather and then act surprised when people keep asking about it. The responses to ship based questions have been somewhat akin to "Relationship? What relationship?". Personally I think Jack being gone, rather than being a hindrance, is the perfect opportunity for them to resolve the issue once and for all rather than continuing to waffle about. With RDA off the show it give the characters a chance to be together without it being all in your face on the show constantly, which is what a lot of people were concerned with. All they have to do is just drop a line on the show about Sam and Jack and VOILA! They're together and then it doesn't have to be a major issue anymore.

Exactly! I couldn't have put this any better.

[scjon]

Disclaimer: I don't know anything for a fact, since I'm not in the heads of tptb, but that doesn't stop me from speculating. Here's my theory. As long as the show was on and Jack and Sam were on the show together, ship was never going to go anywhere. It was a will they/won't they, except without the will. A lot of shows do that, drag out the ship until it gets annoying, until in some cases it becomes almost all the show is about (I'm thinking Lorelai/Luke on Gilmore Girls) which is really annoying as someone who isn't a shipper for that ship. But, they think it keeps things interesting.

However, I don't think that tptb would consider a shippy conclusion worth it with Jack gone. Because, I think that if they could have had the big shippy ending of the series, with both of them there, the huge obstacle gone - Earth is safe, either Jack or Sam could decide that they no longer wanted a military career, or even one of them transfering to another team (well, before the changes came with Jack being general) and it could end in a big way. I believe some of them are shippers themselves. But, I think now, from their perspective, it's why bother? Instead of having a watered down diluted version, just don't do it.

I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

Sadly, I think you may well be right. That's certainly the impression I get from reading the Ask Joe thread and his blogs (and he is a bit more of a shipper than the other PTB, I gather)

[ShadowMaat]

I think in some cases, they'd be better off letting the actors handle the shippyness. If the actor and actress have good onscreen chemistry, then their playfulness will translate to their characters. Folks can read it as flirting if they want, or they can see it as camaraderie, but I think the actors are in the best position to get a feel for how their characters would interact. I'm not talking about the dialogue or the storylines, necessarily, but just how they act physcially around one another, and any ad-libbed teasing/comments that are allowed to stay in.

Keep it at a manageable and "real" level. And don't let the writers screw it up.

Not a perfect solution, no, but I think it'd help. At least in cases like Stargate, where TPTB are incapable of doing it right.

[Dani347]

I've been a shipper from the very first episode that I watched but I never was one that wanted a big From Here to Eternity type love story. I liked the subtle looks and insinuations, I found it rather romantic, but as the years passed by the hints became broader and yet went nowhere and I think it bugged both shippers and anti-shippers and then TPTB backed themselves into a corner.

I'm sure that shippers would prefer Jack and Sam get together. That's understandable. But, do you think overall, if the hints hadn't gotten broader, it wouldn't have been as important to see it on the show? I mean, see them get together as a couple? If the hints had stayed at a certain level, would they have been enough? You might be able to enjoy it for what it was, instead of getting worked up (maybe not the best description) for something that they kept hinting might happen later, no later, no later?


ShadowMaat:

I think in some cases, they'd be better off letting the actors handle the shippyness. If the actor and actress have good onscreen chemistry, then their playfulness will translate to their characters. Folks can read it as flirting if they want, or they can see it as camaraderie, but I think the actors are in the best position to get a feel for how their characters would interact.

That's how I always felt about Daniel/Janet. The actors played up the chemistry they felt between the characters, but because it was never written into the show, it could be read anyway. Lifeboat could be seen as Janet getting emotionally involved because it was Daniel, or because it was just her as a doctor, wanting the best for her patient, and her close feelings to anyone in SG1. People could read it both ways. And, no one could tell anyone else that they're wrong, that there's only one way to read it. Well, they could, but with nothing written into the show, their arguments would be very flimsey.

[Easter Lily]

I guess to me the S/J thing was never a big part of the show (Wouldn't believe it, would you by the amount of time I've spent in here ) so whether or not we see it back on our screens isn't an issue I'd lose sleep over. Stargate is first and foremost an adventure scifi show in my book and for them to develop good storylines is far more important than anything else. I've never seen it as an intensely serious show the way BSG is and the way B5 was so the need to resolve dangling threads isn't quite so imperative in my mind.

[Shep'sSocks]

I guess to me the S/J thing was never a big part of the show (Wouldn't believe it, would you by the amount of time I've spent in here ) so whether or not we see it back on our screens isn't an issue I'd lose sleep over. Stargate is first and foremost an adventure scifi show in my book and for them to develop good storylines is far more important than anything else. I've never seen it as an intensely serious show the way BSG is and the way B5 was so the need to resolve dangling threads isn't quite so imperative in my mind.

I find the whole S/J annoying and pathetic because I could never see anything that made me believe Jack was interested in Sam. An actor has to make me believe in it, which is why I could see Crichton/Aeryn, Sheridan/Delenn, Mal/Inara, and my favourite ship of Keller/Beecher. RDA never looked remotely interested; indeed, he looked bored. Tapping looked she was trying and just ended up being trying.

[Easter Lily]

I find the whole S/J annoying and pathetic because I could never see anything that made me believe Jack was interested in Sam. An actor has to make me believe in it, which is why I could see Crichton/Aeryn, Sheridan/Delenn, Mal/Inara, and my favourite ship of Keller/Beecher. RDA never looked remotely interested; indeed, he looked bored. Tapping looked she was trying and just ended up being trying.

Keller/Beecher?
I think it is important for the actors to be convinced by it and to convince us of it... I don't think it is enough for me to have to use my imagination... it defeats the purpose of having an onscreen romance.

[Shep'sSocks]

Keller/Beecher?
I think it is important for the actors to be convinced by it and to convince us of it... I don't think it is enough for me to have to use my imagination... it defeats the purpose of having an onscreen romance.

Chris Keller (Christopher Meloni) and Tobias Beecher (Lee Tergesen) from Oz. Very convincing. In fact, I bought Oz without knowing much about it simply on the strength of a description of that ship.