SG-1-Use of Myth and Culture Thread

[resurgamlaura]

its served as a good solid base for the show, i have wondered why they didnt really touch on the Greek or Roman gods (rival Goa'uld nations perhaps?) would have been nice if they had explored that.
i dont like the recent inclusion of the Arthurian legends it feels too tacked on but i know as much about them as i do about the Egyptian gods etc (which isnt much )so i dont feel theyve done them a diservice its just pushing the show too far into the realm of fantasy i.e. the dragon
and there is the mythical Lemuria another civilisation around the same time as Atlantis would be good to see if they ever put that in the spinoff show.
it provides an almost limitless inspiration for the series.

The Greek and Roman gods have been a mainstay of sci-fi for so long because of their familiarity but also because aspects such as the philosophy, history and politics of Greek and Roman society can easily be absorbed and commented upon in the genre. It had been done before. BSG was hugely influenced by the Classics. Star Trek had an Apollo ep, I believe, and wasn't Xena still running when SG-1 started? If so, that would have stopped that idea dead- except for odd references (Pelops) and Cronus (who was a father god and therefore a little more universal anyhow).
And I do agree, the Arthurian stuff does feel a bit...obvious.

[Phantom Limb]

The Greek and Roman gods have been a mainstay of sci-fi for so long because of their familiarity but also because aspects such as the philosophy, history and politics of Greek and Roman society can easily be absorbed and commented upon in the genre. It had been done before. BSG was hugely influenced by the Classics. Star Trek had an Apollo ep, I believe, and wasn't Xena still running when SG-1 started? If so, that would have stopped that idea dead- except for odd references (Pelops) and Cronus (who was a father god and therefore a little more universal anyhow).
And I do agree, the Arthurian stuff does feel a bit...obvious.

ah of course, they also had a project Atlantis in startrek:TNG but it was only mentioned the once, oh and there was that race that used the myths and legends of their own culture as metaphors in their language.
its weird to think that BSG 1970's may have started the use of ancient cultures in TV science fiction, stargate continued that idea with the inclusion of the star signs as co-ordinates and then that in turn becomes an integral part of them finding earth in new BSG.
also the Asurans in atlantis may have been inspired by the Asuras of hindu mythology who were violent and arrogant enemies of the gods, who knew!, i honestly thought they just made it all up for SG:Atlantis, haha

[Iffy]

omg the old Star Trek Apollo episode lol that was my favorite as a kid

Yep, Xena and Hercules were on when SG-1 started.

[resurgamlaura]

I've never been much of a Trek fan, but I caught a bit of the Apollo ep. Couldn't keep watching after the cliched and utterly groan-worthy thing with the bimbo masquerading as an intelligent well-educated woman (headslams desk). Grr. Which leads to another question. Representations of archaeologists/linguists, etc. I was actually quite pleased with the Daniel beard, because for once it made him look like the archaeologists in the UCL insitute- and actually horribly like one of them (except he's not cute and reminds me of a hobbit (in a sweet way!)

[Iffy]

I've never been much of a Trek fan, but I caught a bit of the Apollo ep. Couldn't keep watching after the cliched and utterly groan-worthy thing with the bimbo masquerading as an intelligent well-educated woman (headslams desk). Grr. Which leads to another question. Representations of archaeologists/linguists, etc. I was actually quite pleased with the Daniel beard, because for once it made him look like the archaeologists in the UCL insitute- and actually horribly like one of them (except he's not cute and reminds me of a hobbit (in a sweet way!)

lol the Apollo episode works if you are 7 I watched it a few years ago and just thought omg this is so hokey.


All archaeologists ran around w/ guns and whips. I can't think of anyone in the anthro deptment that was as well groomed as Daniel.


I think they lactched on to the Arthurian legends for 2 reasons. They are acessable most people know the story and secondly there are a mess of stories that can be used. That said they have used only the most obvious parts of the Arthurian mythos. I keep hoping for something more substantial.

[resurgamlaura]

lol the Apollo episode works if you are 7 I watched it a few years ago and just thought omg this is so hokey.


All archaeologists ran around w/ guns and whips. I can't think of anyone in the anthro deptment that was as well groomed as Daniel.


I think they lactched on to the Arthurian legends for 2 reasons. They are acessable most people know the story and secondly there are a mess of stories that can be used. That said they have used only the most obvious parts of the Arthurian mythos. I keep hoping for something more substantial.

I agree with you there. And it hasn't been too bad so far-although in the finale of season 9,

Spoiler:

when he says 'Welcome to Camelot'- years of Monty Python exposure led me to automatically expect the first strains of 'Knights of the Round Table' instead of the opening credits

The problem with the Arthurian legends is that they are very character-orientated (I mean problem in terms of adaptation, not my enjoyment of them). Lancelot and Guinevere's unspoken love and how this drives a rift between him and Arthur at the worst possible time; Morgan tempting Merlin into his living 'tomb'. But, like you said, there is a lot there and they really haven't done it justice-because although the legends seem really big, when you look closely they are actually quite small as they are very focused. Its a big departure from gods and goddesses.

And on a shallow note, without archaelogists being portrayed as action types, we have no Harrison Ford as Indiana. Which would sadden me greatly.

[Iffy]

The problem with the Arthurian legends is that they are very character-orientated (I mean problem in terms of adaptation, not my enjoyment of them). Lancelot and Guinevere's unspoken love and how this drives a rift between him and Arthur at the worst possible time; Morgan tempting Merlin into his living 'tomb'. But, like you said, there is a lot there and they really haven't done it justice-because although the legends seem really big, when you look closely they are actually quite small as they are very focused. Its a big departure from gods and goddesses.

That is very true all the stories are very people oriented. As they are more mytho-hystoric it makes sense. For me part of it is I want more of the back story than they have given so far. All the knights headed out as per the story, but who were they really. I feel as if I've got the bone but not the meat. The Go'oulds were always so interactive, I kind of miss that.

And on a shallow note, without archaelogists being portrayed as action types, we have no Harrison Ford as Indiana. Which would sadden me greatly.

nor would we have Daniel Jackson

[resurgamlaura]

That is very true all the stories are very people oriented. As they are more mytho-hystoric it makes sense. For me part of it is I want more of the back story than they have given so far. All the knights headed out as per the story, but who were they really. I feel as if I've got the bone but not the meat. The Go'oulds were always so interactive, I kind of miss that.




nor would we have Daniel Jackson

Indeed
I only actually saw the movie all the way through a couple of years ago. A few weeks later I was flicking through on Saturday morning and found an ep of SG-1-and of course was interested to see how the two compared. The ep was 'Evolution Pt2'- full on Action Jackson. To say that I was confused is an understatement. That two-parter is total Indy Jones crossed with 'Night of the Living Dead' and proud of it. I have grown to love it, and not just for the return of the bandana
Though that ep had South American myth attached to it, which was something they touched on. Nick Ballard coming across the 'giants' through a Mayan temple? Hathor ending up in an abandoned pyramid (and then somehow making her way to Colarado unhindered!). I suspect this wasn't so much a coherent plan, based on Jackson's theories, or even an attempt to spice things up-
they were just way too influenced by Indy as young movie-goers. Not that its a bad template to have...and incidentally, a disturbing quantity of archaeology students I know worship Dr. Jones-even though technically his methods are a little bit questionable

[Re-Horakhti]

I thought the Osiris-as-a-woman idea was rather clever on the part of TPTB. Seth cut up the body of Osiris into 13 pieces - Isis later recovered 12 of the pieces - but not the phallus. She had to fashion a new one in order to copulate with the re-assembled Osiris.

[resurgamlaura]

I thought the Osiris-as-a-woman idea was rather clever on the part of TPTB. Seth cut up the body of Osiris into 13 pieces - Isis later recovered 12 of the pieces - but not the phallus. She had to fashion a new one in order to copulate with the re-assembled Osiris.

I forgot that. I would bet rather heavily on TPTB not knowing that either, or at least not realising the deliciously irony inherent within what they'd done to this Goa'uld host-wise when it was freed. It also served to remind us that they are genderless, and created a great female baddie who also meant something to us (we saw little of Sarah, but she was a good character). And of course the actress' own appearance, as she is so tall and slim, really added to the androgynous yet still feminine aspect of it. And the actress is married to Toby Stephens, who not only is a good actor in his own right, but is the son of the venerable Dame Maggie Smith.
The Egyptians had interesting ideas about their gods' sexuality and procreation. As they believed that ingesting 'seed' could result in pregnancy, it can get a bit...odd. There is also the story about Seth earning the wrath of some of the gods (can't remember who exactly) by tricking their son into...OK, better stop there, as this is a strictly PG forum. I'm not even sure if I can put it behind spoiler tags

[Iffy]

Re-Horakhti - I had forgot about that too My grasp of Eygptian mythology is shakey at best. I know the basics but other than that I've just not been able to get into.


Now The Sumerians

[resurgamlaura]

Re-Horakhti - I had forgot about that too My grasp of Eygptian mythology is shakey at best. I know the basics but other than that I've just not been able to get into.


Now The Sumerians

I need to do some work on the Sumerians and that period. Possibly after my third year is finished.

Most people can't get beyond a certain level of study relating to Egypt. There are few departments, whether separate or integrated into similar departments. Doesn't help that Egyptologists are a clique-y bunch. And divided within themselves- 'should Egyptology be strictly ancient, or shall we do what our name suggests and study until the present day?', 'is Egyptology archaeology or not?', etc. Though most archaeologists are seriously and actually sometimes detrimentally divided over methodology, interests and ideals, so it could be worse. The Romano-British archaeologists and the 'Romanists' (Romano-British historians) have never seen eye to eye either- though I'm lucky to be at a uni where the interaction between the departments of history, archaeology and Greek and Latin is better than most.

[Iffy]

Academia looks so calm and placid on the surface. LIttle do people realize that folks have fist fights over Cladistics. Of course poeple who spealize in that are a bit different.


Than you get the people like who could go on but chose not to and go to culinary school.

Egyptology has always left me cold. I don't think I've got beyond the segment in Anceint History 101.

[Platschu]

I collected some mythological infos about characters and mentioned names in the last seasons:

Merlin
Enchanter, wizard and prophet who oversees Arthur's conception and birth, enables his ascension and acts as high counsel to the King in the early phase of his reign. Geoffrey of Monmouth is responsible for the Merlin known to literature today. His name, "Merlinus," is a latinized adaptation of the Welsh "Myrddin" - the name of a late sixth century northern bard reported to have the gift of sight who predicted a Celtic uprising. A series of Prophetiae Merlini were written by Geoffrey first and then incorporated into the Historia Regum Britanniae, where he attempts to give weight to his semi-historical character.

Geoffrey borrows the story of the "child without a father" from the Historia Brittonum (9th century). A young prophet is brought to Vortigern as a sacrifice but saves himself by displaying feats of magic greater than those of the King's sorcerers. Geoffrey changes the name of this youth to Merlin from "Ambrosius," claiming that this was another name for him. In Geoffrey he is birthed by an incubus and has no human sire. Found at his birthplace, the town later called Carmarthen, he is brought before Vortigern before whom he reveals two underground warring dragons symbolizing the Britons and Saxons. The Prophetiae ensue. He is pictured as a youth instead of a boy savant. Geoffrey knew little at the time about the person of whom he wrote besides his name and reputation. He places Merlin a full century earlier than his Welsh model and, in a greater anachronism, has him oversee the construction of Stonehenge. He also casts the spell that allows Uther to impregnate Ygerna with Arthur.

Geoffrey returned to Merlin around 1150 in his poem "Vita Merlini" where, having expanded his knowledge of the original bard, he tells Myrddin's tale and attempts unconvincingly to reconcile the dates with those of the Historia. Prominently featured is Ganeida, sister to Merlin and prophetess in her own right.

The Historia however, remains the model for the romancers even though in it Merlin never has any contact with Arthur despite hints to the contrary. He begins to assume a larger role with Robert de Boron. The necromancer is now said to be Devilspawn born with the goal of opposing Christ by the formation of an evil prophet. His mother's virtue is responsible for thwarting this black purpose and the powers bestowed by Hell are turned to the good. de Boron and his Vulgate followers echo Geoffrey by placing him again in the 5th century and including Merlin's dealings with Vortigern and Uther. His deeds are also increased. He is now responsible for the making of the Round Table for Uther as a replacement for the table upon which Joseph of Arimathea placed the Grail. He lives to see Arthur born and sees to his care with a foster family. Lastly, he creates the test that will ultimately prove Arthur's royal birthright, the Sword in the Stone.

The later romancers go even further. Merlin obtains Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake and assists the King in his early struggles for unification. He lays the foundation for the Grail Quest but is seduced by Nimue (Viviane), who steals his magic and then imprisons him with enchantment. Malory takes this version as his end. However, a late Welsh legend has him make a voluntary retreat to an underground wyr or invisible glass house on Bardsey Island. There he guards the Thirteen Treasures of Britain along with the True Throne of the Realm where Arthur will sit upon his return.

Merlin's role as a whole is that of advisor and scholar. His genius guides the realm. Though in modern times he is usually depicted as old, his youth during the events with Vortigern cancel out the possibility of his being much older than forty by the end of his recorded deeds.

The character Geoffrey created combines two people, the 5th century prophet and the 6th century poet. He possibly included a third, a hero or god associated with Stonehenge. Merlin is a happy accident arising out of Geoffrey's lack of knowledge when he composed the Historia. He may not have been too far from the mark, however. There are indications that "Myrddin" was a generic term applied to those in pre-Christian Wales who had ecstatic visions and Divine guidance. Geoffrey may have been conscious of a plethora of Myrddins and, without knowledge of the term, thought they were one and the same. Hence his unification of them into one person. In the 16th century, Welsh chronicler Elis Gruffudd claims the first Merlin was reborn as the second and in addition as the bard Taliesin, another who gains his identity by inspiration. Regardless, Merlin is a cryptic figure who occupies a transitional state, slightly Christian with heavy ties to the older, Druidic world.

Morgan le Fey
Introduced in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Vita Merlini, her name (there spelled "Morgen") implies ties to the realm of Fairy. She is also a magical figure as well as a priestess presiding over a sisterhood of nine inhabiting an enchanted isle. She receives the wounded king after the last battle and offers to cure him if he remains long enough.

There are many Celtic traditions evident here, not just of fairy queens ruling magic lands, but of actual sisterhoods of healers and miracle workers recorded in classical literature. Such a group might have been led by a priestess that served as the earthly manifestation of a goddess. Giraldus Cambrensis and other medieval authors were well aware of Morgan's divinity. Comparison of Welsh and non-Welsh Arthurian matter show her to be somewhat identified with Modron and ultimately with the river goddess Matrona, similar to and possibly derived from the Irish goddess Morrigan.

Christianity humanizes and eventually vilifies her. Early on she is a type of benevolent fairy that aids Arthur throughout his life, not just at the end. The Welsh claim her father to be the obscure Avallach, king of the magical island with it's Welsh name, but he fades from legend. Morgan is essentially the sole personage of Avalon, the Isle of Apples. She is further humanized with the progress of Arthurian storytelling. The former goddess becomes a daughter of Ygerna and her first husband Gorlois, the Duke of Cornwall, making Morgan Arthur's half sister. Glastonbury's identification with Avalon leads to beliefs that she ruled in that area but romances place her in various locations. She becomes the owner of the Castle of Maidens, possibly near Edinburgh while a few continental romancers move her to the Mediterranean entirely. Sicliy is one such place. She is named Fata Morgana by the Italians and that name is given to a mirage that appears in the Straits of Messina attributed to her magic in the past.

Medieval Christianity had a difficult time assimilating a benevolent enchantress, she becomes more and more sinister. She is now a witch taught the black arts by Merlin and is a bedevilment to Arthur and his knights with a special hatred towards Queen Guinevere. Oft times she is involved in a plan to ensnare a knight for her own pleasure by sending them into a "valley of no return," or against a mighty adversary. Other times she is married to Urien and bears a son, Owain or Yvain. Yet she never becomes purely evil. Many attractive qualities remain and Morgan is associated with art and culture. Despite the scheming and plotting at court, she is still the one who bears the wounded King to his place of healing on Avalon.

Part of Christianity's failure to understand the character of Morgan was their misapplied versions of morality. They imposed a Judeo-Christian ethical structure over a Celtic one and tried to eradicate the conflicts. The monks basically misunderstood the beliefs of Celtic rule. Women had equal if not greater power than men and were expected to take lovers. This is evident in the transcription of the Tain, the national epic of Ireland (except here scribal ignorance of Celtic ways actually preserved many of them). This is also the reason why Guinevere is seen as unfaithful rather than a free woman free to make her own choices in who she beds. Morgan necessarily becomes a witch to explain her sexuality.

[Platschu]

My post would be too long, so you can read other names here:

Aurelius Ambrosius
Mordred
Gawain
Lady of the lake
Knights of the round table
The Round Table
Camelot
Avalon
Badon (Baden)
Calmann
Excalibur
Caledonian Wood
Dragon
Grail
Morpheus
Atlantis
Odysseus
Daedalus
Athena
Galahad
Percival
Guinevere
Gwalchmei
Culhwch
Owain
Androcles (Atlantis 2x03 Runner)
Orion
Apollo
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklo.../articles.html